Preexistence

[Istari]

Does anyone else know what that verse means?

Thanks.

[Istari]

KarMarie,

Jesus was preExistent, if only by the fact that he himself said, 'I have come down from Heaven to do the will of HIM who sent me'.

Jesus later stated that he wished to be back with HIM that sent him.

First he WAS
Then he WAS NOT
And now he IS again

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ April 04 2011,23:43)

Irene, Uh! Wazup! What did I say? If you can't answer then just don't! I don't know what that verse means – you posted it so I guessed you must know. Irene, may God be with you through his Holy Spirit.

Ok, the first post you made, since you came back, was rather negative about my person. Now if you are going to be nice, like you just did in this post, I will be gladly debate with you. But the first time you will get like you use to do, I will stop. Agreed? To that verse in question, Jesus had Gods Holy Spirit full strength. He is Gods literal Son, not made out of the dust of the earth, like we are. In all other ways Jesus was like us. He hurt like us, He had to rest like us, He got tired like us. I have said that if Jesus did not have Gods Holy Spirit full strength, He too would have sinned. It says that ALL have fallen short of the glory of God. I also believe if God would not have send Jesus from Heaven, and did not know what was at stake, He would have sinned. Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, and since He had been with His Father for some times, He knew what the Fathers will was. All in Scriptures I gave…..
Peace and Love Irene

[Istari]

Irene,
Thank you for your answer. I will certainly take up your challenge.

Actually, I was only after the one line that I don't understand.

[karmarie]

Quote (Istari @ April 05 2011,02:59)

KarMarie, Jesus was preExistent, if only by the fact that he himself said, 'I have come down from Heaven to do the will of HIM who sent me'. Jesus later stated that he wished to be back with HIM that sent him. First he WAS Then he WAS NOT And now he IS again

The word/God's spirit which spoke through the man Jesus pre-existed…where does it say Jesus did?

Just say you were speaking through the Holy Spirit…you speak not your own words.

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ April 05 2011,03:40)

Irene, Thank you for your answer. I will certainly take up your challenge. Actually, I was only after the one line that I don't understand.

Great, do you understand it now? I hope I explained it good enough to you…..
Peace and Love Irene

[karmarie]

Here is a conversation that is interesting.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote someone from another discussion without their permission? so please delete if not ok.

http://te-in.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2205022128&topic=2306

(Quote):

“The 'word' of God or 'logos' (in greek) is consistantly used in the New Testament as meaning 'something which is spoken'. It is never a 'thing' or 'person'. Throughout the rest of the gospel of John, the logos is 'something which is spoken'. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew translation of 'logos' is 'dabar' and again, this is consistantly used about something that is spoken. So theres no reason to suppose that John is referring to anything other than 'something that is spoken' in the prologue to his gospel. Some greek lexicons will define 'logos' as being 'an expression of thought conveyed through speech'.

So in the beginning was the word (“God 'said' let there be light” etc), the word was with (or 'near to') God (as it was the means by which God created everything), it was God (or 'divine') because it was an outpouring of God's plan / purpose / mind. Then in verse 3 of John 1 it says that all things were created by him (or 'it' rather than 'him' as many pre-1600's translations render it) The word of God was what created everything ('let there be light' … 'let us make man in our image' etc).

And from the beginning, God had 'said' that he would send a saviour … Genesis 3, Deuteronomy 18, Isaiah 9, Micah 5 etc. Eventually, his plan to send a savior became a reality in Luke 1v31 when the angel told Mary on behalf of God that God's plan to send a saviour which he had spoken years earlier would become a reality (become flesh) through the birth of Jesus.

The reason why people first started identifying the logos as being a person was because back in the second and third centuries, many of the best theologians (such as Justin Martyr) were former Greek philosophers prior to their conversion to Christianity. In Greek mythology, the 'logos' was a spirit by which the world was made. People such as Justin Martyr picked up on this and imported these ideas in to the gospel of John, so that the 'spoken word' in John 1 was no longer a spoken word but was now a person … and this inevitably lead to the idea of a preexistant Jesus. Since then, people have wrongly copied Justin's ideas, completely unaware of where this idea of personalising the 'logos' and the 'preexistant Jesus' came from.”

(UnQuote).

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispering……….Right on, except this whole idea of a preexistent Jesus started with the Gnostic's, But it was definitely GREEK Mythology at work Remember Paul and John both said this MYSTERY of INIQUITY (a sin that seem right) Was already forming in their day, it Just grew and grew until it infected the whole church until it became the main doctrine of the apostate Churches these false teaching about Jesus is what Paul was talking about regarding THE LIE that created the Man of SIN, a false IMAGE of JESUS as a GOD, and there were many as there are today, who added to it in all kind of different ways. IMO

peace and love to you and and yours……………………………gene

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,
To be honest, I don't think most people have much knowledge of the gnostic's. I had a book I borrowed from a freind called “The Gnostic Bible”. Read it. I think they were influenced by Hindu philosophies. I have also read “Bag a vad Gita”(Song of God). Similar concepts. John could also have been trying to “market” Christ Jesus to the Hellenistic mind-set. Present it in a form they could understand. Not certain about that. Just a thought that ran through my head while posting.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Wispring]

This is a fairly informative article about usage of the word “Logos” in history.
Usage of Logos in History
  I invite the readers to enlighten themselves.

                                                       With Love and Respect,
                                                                 Wispring

[Tim Kraft]

wispring or gene or karmarie, et.al.: Here is a thought. I don't know what to do with. God is spirit. Spirit is formless and permeates all that is. The soul could be a form of body to contain spirit within but who knows. Without a body or mouth and tongue how can words be formed and used?

And what words are we talking about? English? Hebrew? Greek? I'm not sure that words are used in the spirit realm. Communication in spirit is in dreams and visions. Any ideas or thoughts? Bless you both, TK

[karmarie]

Tk,

I had an experience….and with the experience I had, your right. There were no words spoken, only thoughts.

Haven't seen you posting for a few days. Missed reading your cheerfullness TK.

[Wispring]

Tim,
My freind. You are trying humanize God. His ways are not our ways. You may be trying to understand the mind of God. I tried that it doesn't work. Have faith God will give you understanding of things to the best of your ability to understand. Get back to basics. God loves you. Jesus loves you. We love you. Behave the best you can with respect to how God has show you how to behave. His son is a great example. If you think you are doing a sin(missing the mark) ask God for forgiveness. What did Jesus teach us about forgiveness? Pray for guidence. Trust that you will recieve it. God is eternal. God is bigger than big. God is infinite. God's spirit is infinite. God knows all languages. The ones he uses to communicate to you are the important ones or important one. You probably let all the metaphysical-related chat boggle you a bit. Let it go and let God be your helper. God simply says let it be and it is. He won't mind if you have to imagine he simply created a heavenly voice synthesizer to do it. It may not be 100% correct, but, it works for a mental construct. It's not a sin to imagine. If it's too far off the mark He will let you know. Who says he only communicates in spirit in dreams and visions? He can communicate in spirit with the words printed in your bibe and he does! Don't put limits on how God does things or limits to his methods OK? I say these things to comfort a freind out of love. I hope you recieve solace in them the spirit of these words is compassion and goodwill. Peace be upon you.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ April 06 2011,21:45)

wispring or gene or karmarie, et.al.: Here is a thought. I don't know what to do with. God is spirit. Spirit is formless and permeates all that is. The soul could be a form of body to contain spirit within but who knows. Without a body or mouth and tongue how can words be formed and used? And what words are we talking about? English? Hebrew? Greek? I'm not sure that words are used in the spirit realm. Communication in spirit is in dreams and visions.  Any ideas or thoughts?  Bless you both, TK

Tim……….Word are the Expression of Thoughts , or better said INTELLIGENT UTTERANCES. The are Spirit DRIVEN, GOD is SPIRIT His Spirit DRIVES HIS WORD the Same as ours do. SPIRIT is INTELLECT and WORD are the UTTERANCE of THAT INTELLECT> The Word of GOD IS the MIND of GOD, and if this Mind of GOD be in us (IT) Shall as Quicken (being to life) our MORTAL “BODIES”. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Tim………………gene

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (Wispring @ April 06 2011,23:35)

Tim,   My freind. You are trying humanize God. His ways are not our ways. You may be trying to understand the mind of God. I tried that it doesn't work. Have faith God will give you understanding of things to the best of your ability to understand. Get back to basics. God loves you. Jesus loves you. We love you. Behave the best you can with respect to how God has show you how to behave. His son is a great example. If you think you are doing a sin(missing the mark) ask God for forgiveness. What did Jesus teach us about forgiveness? Pray for guidence. Trust that you will recieve it. God is eternal. God is bigger than big. God is infinite. God's spirit is infinite. God knows all languages. The ones he uses to communicate to you are the important ones or important one. You probably let all the metaphysical-related chat boggle you a bit. Let it go and let God be your helper. God simply says let it be and it is. He won't mind if you have to imagine he simply created a heavenly voice synthesizer to do it. It may not be 100% correct, but, it works for a mental construct. It's not a sin to imagine. If it's too far off the mark He will let you know. Who says he only communicates in spirit in dreams and visions? He can communicate in spirit with the words printed in your bibe and he does! Don't put limits on how God does things or limits to his methods OK? I say these things to comfort a freind out of love. I hope you recieve solace in them the spirit of these words is compassion and goodwill. Peace be upon you.                                                  With Love and Respect,                                                            Wispring

Wispring: Please understand I cannot and would not ever try to humanize God. It is impossible for the human to understand an infinite, eternal, absolute, incomprehensible, all inclusive source of all. This cannot be understood or comprehended while in a physical body living in the duality of the earth creation.

I feel like Jesus spoke words that were to be heard through understanding. For those who had “ears” to hear! And to be born again is to “see” with spirit eyes the Kingdom of God.

Jesus taught the “mystery” of the Kingdom of God in parables.

Mark4:13…without a parable spake he not unto them…!

Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God…! The literal interpretation is incorrect. If one sees the vision, and hears with understanding the thought/dream, it is understood. A person who thinks he knows it all already is the rich man, he needs nothing, he is full. Therefore it is hard for him to give up some of his beliefs/riches to accept the higher truth of God.

This is what I was referring to as dreams and visions. Young men will dream dreams and see visions, from God.

For me being born of Spirit also includes dreams and visions.

I consider myself blessed to communicate with Gods chosen who have transcended the basics of the Bible and are deep in the spirit of God. God bless all of you. I don't want to name names. Thank you for my extended learning. Believe me, I listen! TK

[GeneBalthrop]

Tim…………..Well Put Brother. I do believe many think they are Rich in knowledge , when in fact the are Poor and Blind and are lacking in understanding, as the “Spirit” said to the Church of GOD in Laodicea mentioned in Revelations. You are indeed blessed to understand these thing Tim.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

[Wispring]

Hi Tim,
  The only thing rich about me is my personality! lol. I must have misread the tone of you post. It gave me the impression that you were troubled about something. You see, there is a new “tradition” being born into the world and this “tradition” is communicating via text/words via the internet. This whole internet thing was a vision/dream/concept/Logos before it came into existance. There were Many Logos that had to be represented via words(reema) shared among people so that the programmers, hardware manufacturers, hardware venders could drag the dream into existance. When we infuse the dreams and visions that God gives us with love that God gives us and do the actions necessary to bring the dreams to fruition we co-create with God heavenly things on earth. Therefore, actualising and living the words in the Lord's Prayer. Due to the fact we cannot really “hear” one another via text, and the fact that the english language is indeed “rich”, expressing things with the spirit that lives within us via the richness of the language can be considered an act of living in the word of God. I hope I wasn't to “wordy” in expressing these thoughts.

                                               With Love and Respect,
                                                      Wispring

[Tim Kraft]

Thank you both: Just fyoi here are some more word/spirit/dream pictures. Jesus (the word of God) came to teach the new Kingdom(ruling seat of God) that is(in and from) the new temple (being built with spirit/words, not with hands). Jesus himself is the foundation of the new Temple/Kingdom and Jesus is the conerstone of the building. Jesus is the capstone also completing body of Christ/Temple of God. We enter through Jesus, the door of the temple, and Jesus is the light of our path and the light of the temple. Jesus is the High Priest offering the sacrifice of himself, offered once,forever, to cleanse the spiritual worshipers from sin. Jesus is the truth food of the temple and the truth drink is his blood.

Jesus, the father, God , the holy spirit dwell or make their abode in the temple built by Jesus without hands. Like the cells of the human body are written complete, we are the blocks/cells of the temple of God, built through consuming the words given by Jesus. That we may all rise up together into a perfect creation of God. Wickedness will destroy itself as perfection brings on new life in Christ. That we may all be ONE together, forever! With great love and respect to all, TK

[mikeboll64]

A post from t8 in Preexistence Part I

Copied to Part 2 at Irene's request.

John 6:38-40
  For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
  15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

&Colossians 1:17
  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
  “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:

16″I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
  He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man.

Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.  
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
  1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
  For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did
not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
  And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
  12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
  1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
 
  12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
  Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
  15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8:22-30 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.

Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

Wisdom was given birth before cr
eation.

Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.

Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:
1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
  but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
  It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.

Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.

Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.

Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
  6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
  8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

[Baker]

Marty, I especially had Mike bring this up for you. I hope you come and tell me one Scripture at the time and explain what is wrong with it…..
Peace to you, Irene

[Author]

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