Preexistence

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 13 2011,17:05)

Quote (Baker @ Feb. 13 2011,12:04) Gene!  What is your nature?? Baker…….> Again as i have noticed you are the Personal attackers Here as you have with many who have left this site. Alway starting the personal attacks then when some one comes back at you you holler foul.  I think that question would be better fitting you then any one else. IMO

Whenever you do not want to answer, or don't know how to answer a question, you come up with that….. You are the one who has said more times then one, that I have the spirit of Anti-Christ, because I believe what Scripture says……good job….

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca…………If you have not the NATURE of GOD and CHRIST, then you simply are NONE of HIS.

Rom 8:9…> But ye are (ARE NOT IN THE FLESH), but in the (SPIRIT), if so be that the Spirit of God (DWELL) (IN) YOU. NOW if (ANY) Man have not the SPIRIT of CHRIST (the anointing SPIRIT) HE IS (NONE) of his.

So much is said there as regards to what you are saying and as well, about Physical Bodies because yet even while we have these Physical bodies we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and therefor our bodies are spiritual bodies. IMO

peace and love……………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

T8………Remember it say as “HE IS SO ARE WE”, and we are (NOW) the Son of GOD not some later time but NOW so the Nature of GOd exists in us (NOW) because we are his Childern (NOW), Just as Jesus WAS when (EXISTED) (past tense on the earth) . T8 all true Christians have the “NATURE” of GOD (NOW) as Jesus had and has (NOW) also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Baker]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2011,16:55)

The clue here is that he was in the form of God and was found in the form of man. Later we are told that returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun. The glory that he has now, is the glory that he had before the world begun.

t8, that is what scriptures say, and I agree with you.  However will those who should, do the same?  Unfortunately some won't……
There are two nature in those Scriptures, and we are still in the human nature, not spiritual nature.  
Jesus was and is in Heaven now as a Spiritual nature.  He took upon Himself the nature of men, came down from Heaven to do His Fathers will.  Died for us, on the third day rose again, and went back to that glory which He had with His Father before the world was.  All according to Scriptures.
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  

Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  

Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is not all that hard to understand IF WE PUT OUR OWN INTERPRETATION ASIDE AND BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS.

Peace and Love Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2011,10:39)

Terricca…………If you have not the NATURE of GOD and CHRIST, then you simply are NONE of HIS. Rom 8:9…> But ye are (ARE NOT IN THE FLESH), but in the (SPIRIT), if so be that the Spirit of God (DWELL) (IN) YOU. NOW if (ANY) Man have not the SPIRIT of CHRIST (the anointing SPIRIT) HE IS (NONE) of his. So much is said there as regards to what you are saying and as well, about Physical Bodies because yet even while we have these Physical bodies we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and therefor our bodies are spiritual bodies. IMO peace and love……………………………gene

gene

Irene gives you a good answer ,

I start to feel the same

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2011,03:39)

So much is said there as regards to what you are saying and as well, about Physical Bodies because yet even while we have these Physical bodies we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and therefor our bodies are spiritual bodies. IMO peace and love……………………………gene

Hi Gene.

As people, we have a spirit and we have/ are a soul.

When we are born again, we are given a new spirit and consequently, new and eternal life.

What we are not given immediately is a new body. We are still enclosed in a body of death, even though our spirit is born from above. At death we lose this body and in the resurrection, will we not inherit a body to match the new spirit that lives in us?

Therefore we are not perfected fully yet and thus our current bodies are not the spiritual bodies that we will obtain.

Yes we can partake of divine nature. It seems that in spirit we are now partaking in that nature. But we await the promise of a new body which will also have this new nature, thus completing us.

This is why Paul goes to great lengths to preach that our spirit and flesh are at war. Until we obtain the new body, there will be this conflict in every believer.

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,07:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2011,03:39) So much is said there as regards to what you are saying and as well, about Physical Bodies because yet even while we have these Physical bodies we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and therefor our bodies are spiritual bodies. IMO peace and love……………………………gene Hi Gene. As people, we have a spirit and we have/ are a soul. When we are born again, we are given a new spirit and consequently, new and eternal life. What we are not given immediately is a new body. We are still enclosed in a body of death, even though our spirit is born from above. At death we lose this body and in the resurrection, will we not inherit a body to match the new spirit that lives in us? Therefore we are not perfected fully yet and thus our current bodies are not the spiritual bodies that we will obtain. Yes we can partake of divine nature. It seems that in spirit we are now partaking in that nature. But we await the promise of a new body which will also have this new nature, thus completing us. This is why Paul goes to great lengths to preach that our spirit and flesh are at war. Until we obtain the new body, there will be this conflict in every believer.

I think that is an excellent post on New creation and new body brother T8. Resurrection completes this process in the end.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[Baker]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,07:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2011,03:39) So much is said there as regards to what you are saying and as well, about Physical Bodies because yet even while we have these Physical bodies we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit and therefor our bodies are spiritual bodies. IMO peace and love……………………………gene Hi Gene. As people, we have a spirit and we have/ are a soul. When we are born again, we are given a new spirit and consequently, new and eternal life. What we are not given immediately is a new body. We are still enclosed in a body of death, even though our spirit is born from above. At death we lose this body and in the resurrection, will we not inherit a body to match the new spirit that lives in us? Therefore we are not perfected fully yet and thus our current bodies are not the spiritual bodies that we will obtain. Yes we can partake of divine nature. It seems that in spirit we are now partaking in that nature. But we await the promise of a new body which will also have this new nature, thus completing us. This is why Paul goes to great lengths to preach that our spirit and flesh are at war. Until we obtain the new body, there will be this conflict in every believer.

t8  The one thing that I noticed that you believe that we are a Soul, not that we have a soul like so many believe…that is what Georg and I believe also……Good post…..
Peace and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

Thanks Irene.

God saves our soul and gives us a new spirit and body.

That can only mean that we are the soul as that is the only part that is not replaced.

Also, if the spirit and flesh is prompting/tempting me, then I cannot be either the spirit or the flesh, leaving the soul as the part that chooses to either follow the spirit or the flesh.

[Baker]

In our Soul that sinneth it shall die. As in

Eze 18:4   Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.  

Paul says that there is a Spirit in men, this Spirit is your mind, the reason Paul referred to it as Spirit is because it is the invisible part of men……..At our resurrection we will receive a new body, but our mind/spirit will be the same……only those who will come up in the first resurrection will have a spirit body, but even they will have the same mind as before….because if you didn't have the same mind/spirit, how would you know who you are?

Peace and love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2011,08:40)

Thanks Irene. God saves our soul and gives us a new spirit and body. That can only mean that we are the soul as that is the only part that is not replaced. Also, if the spirit and flesh is prompting/tempting me, then I cannot be either the spirit or the flesh, leaving the soul as the part that chooses to either follow the spirit or the flesh.

Very enlightening. I have had problems with this because of the different contexts of “soul” throughout scripture. Your understanding has helped me. Thank you.

mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2011,12:07)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2011,08:40) Thanks Irene. God saves our soul and gives us a new spirit and body. That can only mean that we are the soul as that is the only part that is not replaced. Also, if the spirit and flesh is prompting/tempting me, then I cannot be either the spirit or the flesh, leaving the soul as the part that chooses to either follow the spirit or the flesh. Very enlightening.  I have had problems with this because of the different contexts of “soul” throughout scripture.  Your understanding has helped me.  Thank you. mike

Mike! I don't exactly agree with it. I believe it is the Spirit that is our mind that God saves. How could we know who we were if that would not be reserved…The scripture in Ezekiel tells us the Soul is our body or person, that will die…..The life or our Spirit that God gave us, goes back to God that gave it…..

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Peace and Love Irene.

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2011,03:40)

Thanks Irene. God saves our soul and gives us a new spirit and body. That can only mean that we are the soul as that is the only part that is not replaced. Also, if the spirit and flesh is prompting/tempting me, then I cannot be either the spirit or the flesh, leaving the soul as the part that chooses to either follow the spirit or the flesh.

I agree with what you write here.

[kerwin]

T8,

What you state about spirit, soul, and body has grabbed my attention. It has made me think of Jesus agreeing that God has always commanded us to Love him with all our heart, all our mind, and all our soul. I wonder if perhaps those have been misinterpreted and actually mean we should love God with all our soul, spirit, and body; or in other words our entire being. I hope to look into that hypothesis as it seems reasonable.

I agree that that those that enter the new covenant are given a new spirit and living by that spirit leads to eternal life. I also agree we are no given a new body. In addition I believe the mortal body we currently have is corrupted as all of creation is subject to corruption until deliverance comes. I think that deliverance will occur when the new heaven and new earth are created and I also think that that freedom from corruption occurs for those that experience the final resurrection or are transformed. Still I hope to look into it some more.

I assume you believe that when scripture states we will be resurrected in a “spiritual body” is means we will be resurrected in a body that is like God’s. I am not sure if God can be said to have a body as from what I know he is limitless. Perhaps you know scripture that teaches different. If so please share them.

I believe you take Paul too literally when he teaches the spirit is at war with the flesh. Consider the fact that you already stated that “When we are born again, we are given a new spirit”. The old spirit is the one that teaches us to do unrighteousness and the new spirit commands us righteousness. Our soul is the one that either has a zeal for seeking righteousness or does not. If our soul has zeal, John 3:21, Matthew 5:6, then we will in time learn to always obey the teachings of the spirits of righteousness and if not then we will fall short and live according to the desires of the old man, John 3:19-20. We substantiate our rebirth when we choose to live by the new spirit we receive and stop, i.e. put to death, the old unclean spirit, we used to live by.

I assume you speak of the conflict mentioned in Romans 7. If you know of other scriptures addressing the conflict please let me know what they are as I am still meditating on this topic in order that God can clear my vision as it is still blurry in my mind.

[Baker]

Kerwin! Why do you believe that the Soul is being preserved for our resurrection from the death? That is what t8 states there. While I and Georg believe that God preserves our Spirit in us which is our mind like Scripture says in
Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

ask yourself what is that? Is that not Spirit? Now we should look at

1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I believe that all has to fit. I also believe that the Soul is our Human Bodies. In Genesis God created man and breateth life into Him, and He became a living Soul. That is our body….The inside our mind our Spirit goes to God who gave it at death. That He preserves. How would we know that it is us, if God would not preserve our mind our Spirit.

Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

kERWIN…….a SOUL (IS) a BODY with SPIRIT (INTELLECT) in it. It is the complete man his total composition of a human being a human being is a LIVING SOUL . There are not three components to us just two SPIRIT and FLESH or A BODY. Jesus said GOD could destory (BOTH) two things BODY (AND) SOUL in the GRAVE, Get it that is the total man . Another words He simply does not have to resurrect a person and they are gone for ever. There is no life after we die that is it, unless GOD restore a BODY with our exact DNA and Adds SPIRIT Back into it we will never again exist. Spirit is NOT Unique to anyone, it is common to all of us. We all have knowledge it just what KIND of Knowledge is the question is it clean or unclean, is it of the world or of GOD. Spirit is simply intellect working (IN) bodies of all kinds. God is a Spirit and lives vicariously (IN) his creation. IMO

peace and love……………………………..gene

[Baker]

I like to add here, when I talked to Georg about this He said that not only our Spirit(mind) is preserved, but that God is giving us another Body like the one we had.  His reason is how would anyone recognize us if it would be different.  I do believe that there are  Human beings that will be Spirit only like Jesus is, the Elect who will reign with Him in the Millennium…however the meek will inherit the earth……and will be flesh and blood IMO.time will tell what we will be, very interesting subject indeed….

Peace and Love Irene

[kerwin]

Irene and Gene,

I am going to illustrate where I get my understanding from scripture.

Peter writes that he will soon put aside the tent of his body in 2 Peter 1:13-15. This reveals to me that the human body is only a tent for the essential human being.

In reading of the spirit I am told that the fruit of a spirit can be haughtiness. It is true that the fruit of an individual can also be haughtiness according to Proverbs 16:18. Another scripture that describes the function of a spirit as well as mentioning its fruit is Galatians 5:22-23 when speaking of the Holy Spirit. In teaching about the Holy Spirit Jesus says one of its actions is to guide, John 16:13. It seems clear from these scriptures that a spirit guides the essential individual either on the paths of sin or the path of righteousness and is not the essential individual.

So when Jesus taught the essential Nicodemus that he must be born of Water and Spirit he was instructing him to get a new guide as the one he had at that time fell short of the glory of God.

A soul is immaterial and thus spiritual in nature and so is also called a spirit but that is not the same as the spirit that guides the essential individual. A person is called a soul in scripture just as he is also called flesh. This is similar to our use of the word mortal to designate a living person subject to mortality. A living person is sometimes called a living soul for the same reason.

I am prone to believe that the spirit and soul are interconnected and may even both together be considered the spiritual man while the body is the man of earth. At times scripture may be referring to both together and not either one alone when it talks about a person’s spirit.

I am still learning and this is where I am at the current time.

References:

2 Peter 1(NIV)

13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

Galatians 5(NIV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

John 16:13(NIV)

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Proverbs 16:18(NIV)

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2011,01:23)

Irene and Gene, I am going to illustrate where I get my understanding from scripture. Peter writes that he will soon put aside the tent of his body in 2 Peter 1:13-15.  This reveals to me that the human body is only a tent for the essential human being.   In reading of the spirit I am told that the fruit of a spirit can be haughtiness.   It is true that the fruit of an individual can also be haughtiness according to Proverbs 16:18.  Another scripture that describes the function of a spirit as well as mentioning its fruit is Galatians 5:22-23 when speaking of the Holy Spirit.  In teaching about the Holy Spirit Jesus says one of its actions is to guide, John 16:13.   It seems clear from these scriptures that a spirit guides the essential individual either on the paths of sin or the path of righteousness and is not the essential individual. So when Jesus taught the essential Nicodemus that he must be born of Water and Spirit he was instructing him to get a new guide as the one he had at that time fell short of the glory of God. A soul is immaterial and thus spiritual in nature and so is also called a spirit but that is not the same as the spirit that guides the essential individual.  A person is called a soul in scripture just as he is also called flesh.   This is similar to our use of the word mortal to designate a living person subject to mortality.  A living person is sometimes called a living soul for the same reason.   I am prone to believe that the spirit and soul are interconnected and may even both together be considered the spiritual man while the body is the man of earth.   At times scripture may be referring to both together and not either one alone when it talks about a person’s spirit.   I am still learning and this is where I am at the current time. References: 2 Peter 1(NIV) 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. Galatians 5(NIV) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law John 16:13(NIV) But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. Proverbs 16:18(NIV) Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Kerwin

do not mix the tree and the fruit,

our soul is not the flesh it is the spirit you receive from God ,and your hearth are the deepest sentiments you can have .add to those our works in live history and now thats a soul.(spirit of us)

those two will combine and make what we are,the flesh being the tent in wish we can show to others who we are.

this is why the day of our dead is more important than the day of our birth ,because wen we died all what has been written can not be changed,
only the judgement is to come.

this is why as a tree we should produce Godly fruits,not carnal fruits or sinful ones.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin…….To me the simplest explanation of what a Soul is, is found in Genesis , GOD created or molded a BODY when GOD did that it was a soul, but not LIVING and when GOD Breathed into His Nostrils the breath of LIFE (SPIRIT) He THEN became a “LIVING” Soul, before that he was a Body or a dead Soul not living. Also Jesus did not address more then two thing when he said GOD could DESTROY (BOTH) Body and SOUL where “IN THE GRAVE” why because a body is the soul rather living or dead. “FOR THOU WILL NOT SUFFER HIS “SOUL' TO SEE CORRUPTION” Jesus' soul did not see corruption because GOD raised his body before it corrupted. WHY Because a Soul is the body and can corrupt in the grave. How by God simply not resurrecting a Body and adding spirit of life back into it. God who is pure Spiirt himself loves vicariously (IN) his material creation. It is crucial we ALL are resurected after we die to continual to live ever again, just as it was for Jesus. No Mystery Religion of some spooks still alive after we die , when we die our thoughts PARISH that is it the lights are out for ever unless GOD reconstructs a BODY and adds Spirit back into it. Kerwin a Sould is a living Being consisting of both a Soul (body) and Spirit in it. nothing more just that simple. The question is which Spirit and what Kind of SPIRIT (intellect) is driving that Soul or Body. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[Author]

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