Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 05 2010,06:51)

Why Mike? Am I going a little too fast for you? I tell you what, I will slow it down a little, now listen closely Mike!!!

Hi Keith, you crack me up dude!  It's late, so I'll make this short and sweet.  Do you not know what “Christ” means Keith?

It means “anointed one”, right?  How can YHVH be His own “anointed one”?  Who anointed Him?  Jesus Christ is the anointed one OF YHVH Keith, not YHVH.

You are a card, sir.

mike

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus,

Wouldn't the spiritual rock be the Spirit of Christ that was in Mosses as Mosses is a prophet?

[kerwin]

Gene,

My homesteading kidney is doing fine and getting along with the natives. It function still needs to improve but these things sometimes take time.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 07 2010,17:42)

WJ  It says and the Lord Jesus Christ….in Jud 1:4   For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only LORD God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.   Jud 1:5 ¶ I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the LORD, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.   Peace Irene

Irene

Sorry, That is a mistranslation. it is not in the original text.

The following translations have it right…

Jude 1:4
I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. NLT

For certain men whose condemnation was written about* long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.  NIV

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.  ESV

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand *marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. NASB

For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. RSV

For there are certain men crept in privily, [even] they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. ASV

For certain men have got in unnoticed, they who of old were marked out beforehand to this sentence, ungodly [persons], turning the grace of our God into dissoluteness, and denying our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. DBY

Even the NWT got this one right…

My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. NWT

This is what the NET says about it…

sn The Greek term for Master (δεσπότης, despoths) is the same term the author of 2 Peter used (2 Pet 2:1) to describe his Lord when he prophesied about these false teachers. Since δεσπότης is used only ten times in the NT, the verbal connection between these two books at this juncture is striking. This is especially so since both Peter and Jude speak of these false teachers as denying the Master (both using the same verb). The basic difference is that Peter is looking to the future, while Jude is arguing that these false teachers are here now.

21tn The terms “Master and Lord” both refer to the same person. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. For more discussion see ExSyn 270-78. See also Titus 2:13 and 2 Pet 1:1

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2010,18:38)

WJ……………Jesus was a Man Anointed with the Spirit of GOD, and that anointing Spirit was (the Christos) that was the ROCK on all of GOD chosen leaders  it was (the) Christos..

Gene

You are confused.

First you say Jesus is the (Christ) “Christos” and now you say the (Christ) “Christos” is the Holy Spirit.

How do these two statements of yours agree?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 04 2010,21:07)

Jesus was an anointed Person he was not (THE ANOINTING) but (THE ANOINTED)  of GOD, WJ.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2010,18:38)

WJ……………Jesus was a Man Anointed with the Spirit of GOD, and that anointing Spirit was (the Christos)…

Is Jesus the “Christ” (Christos) or not Gene?

The Greek term “Christos” does not mean “anointing”, “anointing Spirit” or the “Spirit of God” Gene.

Why do you keep pushing your false doctrine?

Also did you make up that definition of a “seperatist”? Can you show me where your definition is found? You need to check what a seperatist is because if you are not a seperatist then you are still part of the RCC.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 07 2010,18:38)

Try looking up some Aramaic texts which far supersede those  much later Greek influences texts and see all the mis translated words, there are hundreds if not thousands of them. You are right in say there is ONLY ONE ROCK and  BUT THAT  IS NOT THE MAN JESUS .

Gene

Can you read Aramaic? If not who translated them to you?

You are disagreeing with Paul for he says…

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of “that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST”. 1 Cor 10:4

Paul knew who the “Christ” was Gene. Do you?

Again Gene, read chapter nine and also check out the 569 times in the NT that Jesus is called the Christ and see who is taking it out of context. Remember Gene…

Jesus is called the Christ (Christos) by Paul alone…

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2010,23:02)

Worshipping Jesus, Wouldn't the spiritual rock be the Spirit of Christ that was in Mosses as Mosses is a prophet?

Kerwin

No!

Paul does not use the term “Spirit of Christ” in the text. He says that “Spiritual Rock was Christ”.

Jesus was known by this title as he was the “Messiah”.

Every time the NT uses the word “Christos” or Christ it is refering to Jesus and not the Spirit of God or Spirit of Jesus.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……………So Now Jesus to you was Not Anointed with the Spirit of GOD, as John the Baptist saw descending down on him, and the Christ does not mean The Anointed ONE, Well i guess it does not mean the Messiah to you either right?, And believe it or not the Word Messiah means also the Anointed . You probably do not believe Jesus is a (SON) of GOD either right. Tells WJ do you even believe Jesus was a flesh and blood human being at all, No wonder you can't put scripture together WJ, you don”t even have the basics right.

A separatist is one who separates Himself or others from something like a teaching, Just as you trinitarians and Preexistences do with the (EXACT) IDENTITY OF JESUS WITH US. They are all the decedents of the Gnostic's who were the original SEPARATIST by saying Jesus was a God sent from the Place of the GODS. Just as you believe right WJ? . This is the SPIRIT (INTELLECT) of ANTICHRIST, that John was talking about that even was existing at that time, it turn Jesus into (THE Man OF SIN ) spoken of in 2Ths 2 by Paul, by making him another GOD Himself as GOD is GOD. The false teaching of Jesus being a GOD is teaching of the Antichrist and it does separate us from Jesus' identity. IMO

peace and love…………………………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:06)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2010,23:02) Worshipping Jesus, Wouldn't the spiritual rock be the Spirit of Christ that was in Mosses as Mosses is a prophet? Kerwin No! Paul does not use the term “Spirit of Christ” in the text. He says that “Spiritual Rock was Christ”. Jesus was know by this title as he was the “Messiah”. Every time the NT uses the word “Christos” or Christ it is refering to Jesus and not the Spirit of God or Spirit of Jesus. WJ

WJ,………….O really, what does Paul mean by this then, “IF THE SPIRIT (OF HIM)(that was Gods Spirit) THAT WAS (IN) CHRIST BE IN YOU (IT) SHALL (ALSO) QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES. So WJ what is the SPIRIT that WAS (IN) Christ (the anointed one) was it not the very Spirit that made him know as the anointed one or the Messiah or Christos or was there a separate Spirit that was in him that can not be in us also. As i have said you SEPARATIST ALL believe Jesus was different then we are right. You do not view Him as a Man exactly like we are and therefore you cant not truly relate with him now GOD the Father in the right way , because you push them both away from yourselves and others also, by you false teachings of Separating Jesus from our likeness. You destory the very work of GOD (IN) Mankind by those false teachings. IMO

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2010,22:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 05 2010,06:51) Why Mike? Am I going a little too fast for you? I tell you what, I will slow it down a little, now listen closely Mike!!!   Hi Keith, you crack me up dude!  It's late, so I'll make this short and sweet.  Do you not know what “Christ” means Keith? It means “anointed one”, right?  How can YHVH be His own “anointed one”?  Who anointed Him?  Jesus Christ is the anointed one OF YHVH Keith, not YHVH. You are a card, sir. mike

Hi Mike

And you crack me up. Had Jesus become the anointed in the wilderness or did it happen at the Jordan?

Yet Paul says that “Spiritual Rock” was Christ.

You seem to have trouble with understanding that things can be refered to in the past as they are now though they were not that way in the past.

Was that to fast for you?

Let me explain…

President Obama was a student at Harvard University. Was President Obama the President then? Of course not, nevertheless he was the same person that was a student at Harvard.

So it is that Jesus was not the Christ until he came in the flesh though Paul refers to the “Spiritual Rock” that followed the children of Israel as the same person “Christ”.

You do get this don't you?

As far as God anointing God… I have the scripture that says he who was in very nature God, the Word that was with God and was God came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man.

You however do not believe that YHVH can appear in the form of a man.

You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2010,10:11)

WJ……………So Now Jesus to you was Not Anointed with the Spirit of GOD, as John the Baptist saw descending down on him, and the Christ does not mean The Anointed  ONE,  Well i guess it does not mean the Messiah to you either right?,

Gene

Why do you misrepresent me?

I have been saying all along that Jesus is the “Christ” (Christos, the anointed one)!

You are the one saying that the “Holy Spirit” is the “Christ” (Christos). Get real man.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 08 2010,10:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:06) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2010,23:02) Worshipping Jesus, Wouldn't the spiritual rock be the Spirit of Christ that was in Mosses as Mosses is a prophet? Kerwin No! Paul does not use the term “Spirit of Christ” in the text. He says that “Spiritual Rock was Christ”. Jesus was know by this title as he was the “Messiah”. Every time the NT uses the word “Christos” or Christ it is refering to Jesus and not the Spirit of God or Spirit of Jesus. WJ WJ,………….O really, what does Paul mean by this then, “IF THE SPIRIT (OF HIM)(that was Gods Spirit) THAT WAS (IN) CHRIST BE IN YOU (IT) SHALL (ALSO) QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODIES. So WJ what is the SPIRIT that WAS (IN) Christ (the anointed one) was it not the very Spirit that made him know as the anointed one or the Messiah or Christos or was there a separate Spirit that was in him that can not be in us also. As i have said you SEPARATIST ALL believe Jesus was different then we are right. You do not view Him as a Man exactly like we are and therefore you cant not truly relate with him now GOD the Father in the right way , because you push them both away from yourselves and others also, by you false teachings of Separating Jesus from our likeness.  You destory the very work of GOD (IN) Mankind by those false teachings. IMO

{{{{{{SHAKING HEAD}}}}}}

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30)

You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ

Hi brother WJ,
Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,10:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30) You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ Hi brother WJ, Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above?

Hi GM

Correct the Father and the Son are not the same person yet they are “One God”. God is Spirit. The very essence of who and what God is the Father and Jesus are.

Just as a man and a woman are “One flesh” yet two persons.

Just as there are many humans but only one humanity.

WJ

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,03:00)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,10:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30) You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ Hi brother WJ, Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above? Hi GM Correct the Father and the Son are not the same person yet they are “One God”. God is Spirit. The very essence of who and what God is the Father and Jesus are. Just as a man and a woman are “One flesh” yet to persons. Just as there are many humans but only one humanity. WJ

Right answer brother WJ. So you mean 'God' is also a collective or common noun like 'human' which can be plural? As per your statement God can be plural as man and woman who are separate individual human beings can be called as one flesh though not literally but in a figurative sense IMO. This is where I am having problem with our N.T which claims that Father is God, son is God and Holy Spirit is God who are also separate individual beings but at the same time God is only one, Lord is one and the Spirit is one as per Eph 4. How this is possible? Is it not polytheism?

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

WorshipingJesus,

It is my understanding that God used Moses as a proxy through the spirit to lead the children of Israel to the promised land.  Do you agree with that idea?  

The people of that time were all right as long as they drank from his teachings.

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,10:00)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,10:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30) You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ Hi brother WJ, Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above? Hi GM Correct the Father and the Son are not the same person yet they are “One God”. God is Spirit. The very essence of who and what God is the Father and Jesus are. Just as a man and a woman are “One flesh” yet to persons. Just as there are many humans but only one humanity. WJ

WJ

trinity pagan believe.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,11:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,03:00) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2010,10:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 09 2010,02:30) You do not believe that YHVH has a son who is “One” with him and in every way is like him and who also shares the name of his Father. WJ Hi brother WJ, Greetings after a long time. Sorry to bother you. I just want to ask you on the above statement; I think Son is not same individual as Father in the Godhead if so are they not two Gods in Christianity at least as per your statement above? Hi GM Correct the Father and the Son are not the same person yet they are “One God”. God is Spirit. The very essence of who and what God is the Father and Jesus are. Just as a man and a woman are “One flesh” yet to persons. Just as there are many humans but only one humanity. WJ Right answer brother WJ. So you mean 'God' is also a collective or common noun like 'human' which can be plural? As per your statement God can be plural as man and woman who are separate individual human beings can be called as one flesh though not literally but in a figurative sense IMO. This is where I am having problem with our N.T which claims that  Father is God, son is God and Holy Spirit is God who are also separate individual beings but at the same time God is only one, Lord is one and the Spirit is one as per Eph 4. How this is possible? Is it not polytheism? Thanks and peace to you Adam

GM

One flesh is not figurative. The physical joining of two become one flesh. Paul calls it a Mystery. Though our minds cannot comprehend how man and woman can be “one flesh” yet be two persons, nevertheless it is so.

There is only One Divine being who is God and that scripturally is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2010,13:35)

WorshipingJesus, It is my understanding that God used Moses as a proxy through the spirit to lead the children of Israel to the promised land.  Do you agree with that idea?   The people of that time were all right as long as they drank from his teachings.

Kerwin

That is not what 1 Cor 10:4-9 teaches. Nor does Jude 1:4, 5.

Moses is never refered to as “The Rock”, and neither is the Holy Spirit.

You need to let go of your false teachings that Jesus did not Preexist. This Unitarian concept is clearly not Biblical and will burn up in that day. If you are listening to the Spirit which inspired Paul to write then you will see Paul is saying Christ Jesus is the Rock.

WJ

[kerwin]

WorshipingJesus,

Is not 1 Corinthians 10:5-9 speaking of those that choose not to drink from the teachings of the Spirit and so rebel against God? Does their rebellion not show that they are unbelievers, As in Jude 1:4-5, as they reject the word of God?

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