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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 05 2010,17:27) To those who support the Preexistence tenet, An example of a mistranslated word according to your own tenet is the word “make” in John 1:14 since you do not believe that the hypothetical Spiritual being known as Christ was made into flesh. It also does not fit the tenet Holy Spirit, a.k.a. Spirit of God and others came to inhabit Jesus. It does fit the literal Word tenet as God spoke and the world was made. The alternative translation of “married” does fit your tenet.
Your tenet seems to replace the Spirit of Christ with the hypothetical Spiritual being known as Christ.
Hi Kerwin,I'm not sure what you're even saying here, but the word translated as “became” in 1:14 is “ginomai”, which means:
ginomai
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be madeIt seems that “become” is the main gist of the word no matter which definition you pick. This is what Strong says:
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be
(“gen”-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),
used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):-arise, be
assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be)
come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be
finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen,
have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass,
be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it
was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.I see your “married” definition in there, but keep in mind that it's primary usage is to denote “being generated”. “Ginomai” is one of the base words used in “monogenes”, which means “only begotten”, or more accurately, “only generated”.
I see no reason to think it means “married” in John 1:14, but even if it did, it would mean that “the Word” was “married to flesh, and the Word had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father”.
So even if you want to say “the Word married the flesh body of Jesus Christ”, it would still mean two things:
1. The Word and the flesh body of Jesus became one flesh.
2. The Word would still be the pre-existent being who has the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father.For it is the Word, not a flesh body, that is said to have that glory in John 1:14. And God has only ONE only begotten Son according to scripture. And neither “the spoken words of God” nor “God's Holy Spirit” fit the definition of “the only begotten Son of God” according to the rest of the scriptures.
Do you know that same word “ginomai” is used twice in John 1:3? But even if you insist on “married” as it's definition in 1:14, it still means that the “one flesh” created by the “marriage” of “the Word” and the flesh of Jesus was the only begotten Son of God. And it was this only begotten Son of God who spoke with the authority that came from being in God's presence before the world was created. It was this same only begotten Son of God who said he would “ascend to where I was before”.
So the bottom line is that no matter how you want to change the meanings of the Greek words used, you still end up with a pre-existent Son of God who was flesh for a while, suffered, died, and was raised back up to his former glory at the right hand of his God and Father.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,17:39) Hi Mike, Your words seem to be at odds with…
John 14:8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?My explanation (of The Word being the “HolySpirit”) also encompass what Jesus said to Phillip in John 14:9!
You discounted 1 Tim 3:16's association with John 1:14, lets see what you have to say about this one?
Hi Ed,You didn't post the beginning of the conversation:
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
If you read it in context, it's easy to see that Jesus is someone other than the Father (see underlined part). And it is also easy to see that Jesus is saying that since he does and says only what he learned from the Father, in a sense, hearing and seeing what he does is just like seeing the Father.
But we apparently can't take it to literally mean that human beings were actually visibly “seeing the Father Himself”, because Jesus also says:
John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.peace and love,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,17:46) 2) Do you believe that Jesus ONLY only had God's finger in him?
Ed,Your question can either mean:
1. Did Jesus have NOTHING in him EXCEPT God's finger?…….or,
2. Is Jesus the ONLY one who had God's finger in him?
Please clarify.
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2010,03:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:54) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,22:15) 6) No; It means that “God The Father”,
the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)
Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.No Ed, according to your theory, the above scripture means “the God the Father of your God the Father” will speak through them.
There is nothing else that scripture can be saying if God's Spirit is actually “God the Father” as you claim.
mike
Hi Mike,That verse means: God The Father will speak
The Word through them as he did through Jesus.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed. If the Holy Spirit OF God is really “God the Father Himself”, as you claim, then that scripture can ONLY mean:“The God the Father OF the God the Father” will be speaking through you.”
Face it Ed. This one little scripture proves your “Holy Spirit IS God the Father” theory to be inaccurate.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 06 2010,08:35) Thus according to your own doctrine the current word “made” is a mistranslation.
Hi Kerwin,Both “became” and “made” fit the scriptures just fine. The pre-existent Word of God “was made flesh”, “became flesh” “came into existence AS FLESH”, etc.
There is no dilemma for us.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 06 2010,12:20) Gene, We should remember that individuals not yet completely free of sin sometimes have insecurities. I obvious hit such in my conversation with Irene. I am sorry she was hurt by my stating she did not know something she believes she does but I believe I still needed to say it. She has admitted that she has been taught wrong in the past and merely am saying she still has wrong teachings to overcome. My belief is she has interpreted my words different than I intended them.
kerwin, I waited until today to answer you what you said to Gene. First of all I never said that I still had to overcome something that I still believed from my former Catholic Church…..It is 26 years ago that we left. Second of all, the Catholic Church never believed in the preexisting of Jesus……thirdly you are no better then Gene who is always gets personal, when he does not know what to say about all the Scriptures given……You too have given me one accuse after the other. Then you give a word, that first is make and then is made…..Others have come now and, read what Mike said …….you are so totally wrong……you are a sad Christian to deny all those Scriptures…..I feel sorry for you, because one day you too will have to stand in front of our Savior and explain to Him why you became personal with me to another member….
IreneTo all those who do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus. Go and look at all the Scriptures that have been posted, in the preexisting debate tread…….. And then tell us, which Scripture is mistranslated……Irene
You can see 29 of them here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….5;st=20
They are organized according to the cannon on the ninth post down.
The database keeps growing though.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2010,03:57) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2010,03:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:54) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,22:15) 6) No; It means that “God The Father”,
the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)
Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.No Ed, according to your theory, the above scripture means “the God the Father of your God the Father” will speak through them.
There is nothing else that scripture can be saying if God's Spirit is actually “God the Father” as you claim.
mike
Hi Mike,That verse means: God The Father will speak
The Word through them as he did through Jesus.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed. If the Holy Spirit OF God is really “God the Father Himself”, as you claim, then that scripture can ONLY mean:“The God the Father OF the God the Father” will be speaking through you.”
Face it Ed. This one little scripture proves your “Holy Spirit IS God the Father” theory to be inaccurate.
mike
Hi Mike,How so?
God The Father is not separated,
so the Spirit of God The Father is God The Father.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike Boll,
Are you really blind to the fact that you are stating two different things or are you unaware what the definition of “made” is?
‘Made’ in this case is defined as artificially creating, constructing, forming, or shaping according to dictionary.com.
So in other words you are stating the hypothetical spiritual being known as the Christ was shaped into flesh, created as flesh, constructed into flesh, or transformed to flesh. As far as I know, you do not believe any of these occurred as I have heard you believe the Spiritual being took on a tent of flesh instead.
This is why your answer confuses me since you seem to be stating both yes and no.
The Word of God in John 1:14 became flesh. How hard is that to understand….Also if you don't believe that is what John is talking about then what about what it says in
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
This is showing us that The Word of God is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Now if you still have doubt that this is Jesus who after He became flesh, and went back to God our Heavenly Father in
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
We also know that flesh and blood does not enter the Kingdom of God. So Jesus glory is that He is a Spirit Being….He now has divinity and will come back as what Rev. 19 explains….that is what He was before He became a Human being…..
I never interpret the Scriptures in any way or form. It is plainly written, and easy to understand….I wonder who is blind around here….Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2010,07:25) Mike Boll, Are you really blind to the fact that you are stating two different things or are you unaware what the definition of “made” is?
Hi Kerwin,I think Jesus was the Word who was the only begotten Son of God who all things were created through in the beginning. I believe he emptied himself of his glorious heavenly position at the right hand of God to BECOME a flesh and blood person. I believe, that while he always had God working for and in him through His Holy Spirit, God filled him with the Spirit without measure at the Jordan. I believe that is when the full memories of exactly who he was and who he used to be were restored to him. I believe that everything he did and taught during his ministry on earth was being done or taught by someone who had full memories of his “past life” at the side of God.
The only reason I “augmented” it was you bring you on board. If you can come to a place where you embrace scriptures by thinking of the flesh body of Jesus being “filled” with the spirit body of God's Son, then I'm willing to state it that way. Because the outcome is still the same. The “Jesus” who was teaching was teaching with the knowledge he learned directly from his God before he ever came to be in a flesh body. Did you notice I even added the “IN” a flesh body for you, even though that's not what scripture says.
Look Kerwin, we have discussed Phil 2. Aside from ignoring the fact the someone who already is a human being cannot be made into a human being, you also rejected my understanding that the whole passage was to teach us to be willing to give up anything we have for the glory of God. I understand that Jesus had a “cushy” postion at the right hand of God, but was willing to empty himself of all that and be made as flesh to the glory of his God.
Well, I was reading in 2 Cor today and found this:
2 Corinthians 8:8-9 NIV
8 I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.Kerwin, in what way was Jesus “rich” except for his uniquely wonderful position at God's right hand? He was a tradesman's son. His family was apparently not “rich”, for when the time came for them to present Jesus to Jehovah at the temple for his purification rites, they didn't have the lamb and dove to offer, but instead offered the two doves that were deemed acceptable by God for people who could not afford a lamb.
So exactly what “riches” did Jesus empty himself of to become poor for us?
I think this ties into my understanding of Phil 2 wonderfully, don't you?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,15:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2010,03:57) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2010,03:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:54) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,22:15) 6) No; It means that “God The Father”,
the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)
Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.No Ed, according to your theory, the above scripture means “the God the Father of your God the Father” will speak through them.
There is nothing else that scripture can be saying if God's Spirit is actually “God the Father” as you claim.
mike
Hi Mike,That verse means: God The Father will speak
The Word through them as he did through Jesus.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed. If the Holy Spirit OF God is really “God the Father Himself”, as you claim, then that scripture can ONLY mean:“The God the Father OF the God the Father” will be speaking through you.”
Face it Ed. This one little scripture proves your “Holy Spirit IS God the Father” theory to be inaccurate.
mike
Hi Mike,How so?
God The Father is not separated,
so the Spirit of God The Father is God The Father.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,But the scripture doesn't say “God will be speaking through you”, although we know that's who it will be. Why do you think they distinguish the Spirit from God who is heaven? They are saying that God will speak for you BY MEANS of HIS Spirit.
The Spirit is not the whole being of God Himself, but a part of the whole being of God the Father. Try this one on for size:
John 16:13 NIV
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.If the Spirit IS God the Father, then why will it only speak what it hears? Hears from WHO? Who is it that tells God Almighty what to say or not say?
The Spirit is OF God and FROM God. It is not the being “God the Father”, but a part of Him. Just like when it is called “the Finger of God”, no one in their right mind would think a finger is the complete being of someone. It is a part OF someone that can be used to accomplish certain tasks. But a finger is not a “whole being”.
Ed, we're to that “point” again. If you don't want to include the words “OF” and “FROM” into your understanding, then you are re-arranging scriptures. And at that point, I will discuss it no further with you.
I've showed the scriptures. You can believe or not.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 08 2010,11:44) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,15:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2010,03:57) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 06 2010,03:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:54) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,22:15) 6) No; It means that “God The Father”,
the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)
Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.No Ed, according to your theory, the above scripture means “the God the Father of your God the Father” will speak through them.
There is nothing else that scripture can be saying if God's Spirit is actually “God the Father” as you claim.
mike
Hi Mike,That verse means: God The Father will speak
The Word through them as he did through Jesus.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No Ed. If the Holy Spirit OF God is really “God the Father Himself”, as you claim, then that scripture can ONLY mean:“The God the Father OF the God the Father” will be speaking through you.”
Face it Ed. This one little scripture proves your “Holy Spirit IS God the Father” theory to be inaccurate.
mike
Hi Mike,How so?
God The Father is not separated,
so the Spirit of God The Father is God The Father.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,But the scripture doesn't say “God will be speaking through you”, although we know that's who it will be. Why do you think they distinguish the Spirit from God who is heaven? They are saying that God will speak for you BY MEANS of HIS Spirit.
The Spirit is not the whole being of God Himself, but a part of the whole being of God the Father. Try this one on for size:
John 16:13 NIV
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.If the Spirit IS God the Father, then why will it only speak what it hears? Hears from WHO? Who is it that tells God Almighty what to say or not say?
The Spirit is OF God and FROM God. It is not the being “God the Father”, but a part of Him. Just like when it is called “the Finger of God”, no one in their right mind would think a finger is the complete being of someone. It is a part OF someone that can be used to accomplish certain tasks. But a finger is not a “whole being”.
Ed, we're to that “point” again. If you don't want to include the words “OF” and “FROM” into your understanding, then you are re-arranging scriptures. And at that point, I will discuss it no further with you.
I've showed the scriptures. You can believe or not.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Your juggling words again in an attempt to avoid the obvious truth.
Acts12:24 …”The Word” ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs) of God grew and multiplied.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall
be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the HolySpirit.
Luke 12:12 For the HolySpirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Matt.10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgedj
you still not understand;Ac 12:24 But the word of God continued to increase and spread.
Ac 12:25 When Barnabas and Saul had finished their mission, they returned from Jerusalem, taking with them John, also called Mark.it talks about the scriptures;
is it not obvious
Pierre
edj
could you explain this to me??Matt.10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 09 2010,07:48) edj could you explain this to me??Matt.10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Isn't the meaning of that verse obvious?
What part of that verse has you confused?God bless
eD j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ…………They just do not get it brother. The reason is because they do not know what SPIRIT really IS. They think it is a PERSON , they do not understand about the Seven Spirits of GOD. They don't understand that Spirit is what transfers intellects to us making us cognate of things it is what composes a mind. God who is Spiirt can INDWELL is He considers us temples to Dwell in just as he did Jesus. Jesus was not lying when he said the FATHER is (IN) ME. The Father was indeed truly (IN) HIM via the HOLY SPIRIT He recieved at the Jordan. They do not understand Spiirt is NOT A BEING it is What is (IN) Beings.
peace and love…………………………….gene
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 09 2010,14:48) edj could you explain this to me??Matt.10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Pierre
edjthe part you cannot explain
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2010,18:05) EDJ…………They just do not get it brother. The reason is because they do not know what SPIRIT really IS. They think it is a PERSON , they do not understand about the Seven Spirits of GOD. They don't understand that Spirit is what transfers intellects to us making us cognate of things it is what composes a mind. God who is Spiirt can INDWELL is He considers us temples to Dwell in just as he did Jesus. Jesus was not lying when he said the FATHER is (IN) ME. The Father was indeed truly (IN) HIM via the HOLY SPIRIT He recieved at the Jordan. They do not understand Spiirt is NOT A BEING it is What is (IN) Beings. peace and love…………………………….gene
geneyou to are confused ,since you know what the spirit his ,why you explain it to me
Pierre
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