Preexistence

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:32)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,10:12) John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Ed: Quote John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The scripture says the Word had the glory of someone who was BEGOTTEN BY GOD.  God has the glory of God, not “someone who was begotten by Him”. And on that note, I will not discuss this point any further with you, for you are clearly twisting what the scripture says in an effort to make it fit into your doctrine.

Hi Mike,

How does your view square with these verses…

Rom.2:10 But “glory”, honor, and peace,
to every man that worketh good, to the
Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom.8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time
are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
2Cor:1:20: For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Cor.3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1Thess.2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
1Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not,
yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 04 2010,07:07)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 03 2010,20:37) Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks again for your patience in replying my query. Infact I have gone through the link you have posted above. I have read the portion on “Son of God as Holy Spirit” in the book of Hermas. I can only say that was the opinion of the writer than it is based on any scripture whether O.T or N.T. If you say the Holy Spirit is the Son of God we will make much blunder on Virgin Birth which was caused by Holy Spirit himself as per this verse ” But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit”.(Matt 1:20). If Holy Spirit was the Father of Jesus how can he be son of God? There are many other verses which claim that Holy Spirit is God Himself I mean God the Father.  See this another verse “For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). Holy Spirit is none but God Himself who is Holy. But there are few verses which claim that Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus such as ” 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness.” (Rom 8:9-10) & “When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to”. (Acts 16:7) As I told you early our Bible is with full of contradictions on any subject you take. I leave it to you to decide. Things are ok on my side Thanks and love to you Adam Hmmm that is strange, I see the problem but need to look into it more. Glad to hear you are ok Adam.

That's better Sis. Here is another verse to support the assumption of Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God the Father; “for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.” (Matt 10:20).

Love and peace to you
Adam

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,10:21) Hi Mike, You said (in the past) Jesus had glory of his own, where did Jesus get this Glory? Paul speaks of the glory of the sun and moon and mankind.  Jesus speaks of the glory of Solomon. (1) Do you imply that all these “glories” are the glory of God?  God made all things glorious, so everything has it's own glory. (2) But the glory of mankind cannot be equalled to the glory of God.  And the glory of the Son cannot be equalled to the glory of God. (3) All things were made by God, so the glory each thing has is only there because God made that thing.  (4)But none of those things God made have “God's glory”.

Hi Mike,

1) Certainly, is not a corvette the glory of GM?

2) Duh.

3) Correct.

4) False.
    See my answer to Point #1.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Irene,

The fact that you lack knowledge is not a personal attack though you could call it my opinion. I also included the evidence of why I concluded you lacked knowledge. It is not a surprise since we are all students of Jesus and thus still learning from him. I certainly do not know everything though I have grown more confident of certain things. Any “criticism” I have leveled is intended to build you up and not tear you down so I saw nothing offensive about it.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:47)

Ed: Quote 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse?  Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16? Well first, the word is “He”, not “God”.  Check NETBible out: http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=16 Out of the nine majors translations shown, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have “God” in that scripture Ed.  You can read the loads of info NETNotes gives about why they, along with the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and the others use the word “He” instead of “God”. Think about it Ed.  The NIV was reportedly translated by over 100 scholars who had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project.  If there was any valid evidence whatsoever that the word should be “God”, don't you think they would have jumped at the chance to render it as “God”?

Hi Mike,

I have no idea what all that squag is,
but could you please answer a simple question for me?
Perhaps my question was not specific enough for you; let me rephrase…
How was God manifested in the flesh if not “The Word” in Jesus that became flesh? (John 1:14)
Please tell me if you don't understand my question before you answer something else I didn't ask; OK?

The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism.
This is precisely what both John 1:14 and 1Tm.3:16 are talking about here.
If you believe something else, let's hear ‘your spin’ on 1Tm.3:16?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,00:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:47) Ed: Quote 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse?  Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16? Well first, the word is “He”, not “God”.  Check NETBible out: http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=16 Out of the nine majors translations shown, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have “God” in that scripture Ed.  You can read the loads of info NETNotes gives about why they, along with the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and the others use the word “He” instead of “God”. Think about it Ed.  The NIV was reportedly translated by over 100 scholars who had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project.  If there was any valid evidence whatsoever that the word should be “God”, don't you think they would have jumped at the chance to render it as “God”? Hi Mike, I have no idea what all that squag is, but could you please answer a simple question for me? Perhaps my question was not specific enough for you; let me rephrase… How was God manifested in the flesh if not “The Word” in Jesus that became flesh? (John 1:14) Please tell me if you don't understand my question before you answer something else I didn't ask; OK? The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism. This is precisely what both John 1:14 and 1Tm.3:16 are talking about here. If you believe something else, let's hear ‘your spin’ on 1Tm.3:16? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

are you saying;The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism.

so the “Holy spirit” is “the father” and ” the word” also is the father ?

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 04 2010,23:46)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 04 2010,07:07) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 03 2010,20:37) Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks again for your patience in replying my query. Infact I have gone through the link you have posted above. I have read the portion on “Son of God as Holy Spirit” in the book of Hermas. I can only say that was the opinion of the writer than it is based on any scripture whether O.T or N.T. If you say the Holy Spirit is the Son of God we will make much blunder on Virgin Birth which was caused by Holy Spirit himself as per this verse ” But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit”.(Matt 1:20). If Holy Spirit was the Father of Jesus how can he be son of God? There are many other verses which claim that Holy Spirit is God Himself I mean God the Father.  See this another verse “For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). Holy Spirit is none but God Himself who is Holy. But there are few verses which claim that Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus such as ” 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness.” (Rom 8:9-10) & “When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to”. (Acts 16:7) As I told you early our Bible is with full of contradictions on any subject you take. I leave it to you to decide. Things are ok on my side Thanks and love to you Adam Hmmm that is strange, I see the problem but need to look into it more. Glad to hear you are ok Adam. That's better Sis. Here is another verse to support the assumption of Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God the Father; “for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.” (Matt 10:20). Love and peace to you Adam

hi Adam

what is the spirit of the father??
what is the spirit of Christ ?
what is the spirit of the scriptures???
what is the holy spirit??

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,11:04) The “God Spirit”(117) came from “God The Father”(117) starting at “Pentecost”(117). I have started a new thread in which I will be explaining questions such as you propose in much greater detail! Well, I hope you explain things better in your new thread.  Because your own sentence here proves your own theory wrong. You say the Holy Spirit IS God the Father.  But now you (scripturally) say it “came from God the Father”. Stick with this one Ed.  It is scriptural.

Hi Mike,

So you agree with me then that the “God Spirit”
is the essence of “God The Father”?
Here is my one question…

Do you believe that Jesus only had God's finger in him?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,15:06)

Yes Ed, you have been trying. (1) Maybe Adam needs to explain Luke 11:13, for it seems clear that you aren't going to. (2) If this isn't enough to make you see the Holy Spirit is a possesion OF God that He can freely GIVE as a GIFT, then I'll dig up some more scriptures. (3) Well, that didn't take long. Acts 5:32 NIV We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (4) Now this scripture metaphorically refers the God's Holy Spirit as a person.   (5)And in doing so, we can see that the “person” of the Holy Spirit has been given by a different person………..God.   Here's a good one: Matthew 10:20 NIV 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. (6)Does this say the “Father of your Father” will be speaking through you? goodnight, mike

Hi Mike,

1) I have answered in the other thread.

2) You possess your spirit as well!
    As a corpse, will you say that is still you?
    If you are not there, then where? See my point?

3) What else are you going to dig up?

4) Is your mind only metaphorically you?

5) So now the “HolySpirit” and God (according to Mike) are two different entities?

6) No; It means that “God The Father”,
    the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)

You may not agree with me right now, but you see it's true in “due time”!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2010,21:41)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 05 2010,00:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:47) Ed: Quote 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse?  Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16? Well first, the word is “He”, not “God”.  Check NETBible out: http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=16 Out of the nine majors translations shown, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have “God” in that scripture Ed.  You can read the loads of info NETNotes gives about why they, along with the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and the others use the word “He” instead of “God”. Think about it Ed.  The NIV was reportedly translated by over 100 scholars who had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project.  If there was any valid evidence whatsoever that the word should be “God”, don't you think they would have jumped at the chance to render it as “God”? Hi Mike, I have no idea what all that squag is, but could you please answer a simple question for me? Perhaps my question was not specific enough for you; let me rephrase… How was God manifested in the flesh if not “The Word” in Jesus that became flesh? (John 1:14) Please tell me if you don't understand my question before you answer something else I didn't ask; OK? The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism. This is precisely what both John 1:14 and 1Tm.3:16 are talking about here. If you believe something else, let's hear ‘your spin’ on 1Tm.3:16? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj are you saying;The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism. so the “Holy spirit” is “the father” and ” the word” also is the father ? Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

Yep.

God bless
eD j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Hi Terraricca,

what is the spirit of the father??                The LORD JEHOVAH=151 (Isaiah 12:2, 26:4)
what is the spirit of Christ  ?                      Jesus Christ=151 (New Testament)
what is the spirit of the scriptures???        LORD of Hosts=151 (AKJV Bible)
what is the holy spirit??                             Holy Spirit=151 (Old & New Testament)

God bless
eD j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2010,00:02)

TO ALL………Here is an example of mistranslations. Lets take the simple word (OF) in Greek it is written …ek, ex.   Strong translates  It as ….A primary preposition denoting ORIGIN (the point whence motion or action proceeds. from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or fugitively; direct or remote) :-after, among,X are, at betwixt (- yond, by (the means of),exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, up, + grudgingly, +heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in…..Ly< ( because, by reason) of, off (from) , on, out among (from, of) over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-Out).often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion. Now let go to  King James Concordance the says it is listed  as occurring 76 times in scripture but never as (OF  or FROM) as all the rest do. in fact it says it occurs as—- (On), 34 times as (among) 5 times,  as (over) 5 times, as (AT) 3 times, as (through) 3 times, as (again) 2 times, as because, 2 times ,as abundantly,and as these other 1 time,against,believeth,between,betwixt, beyond,continually,earthly,exceedingly,grudging, heartily, heavenly,hereby,highly, off,since, thenceforth. Notice not even Once as (of) or (From)  in the KJC, and they wounder why there is so much confusion i scriptures . there have been proven over 20,000, Grammatical error in our New Testament texts. I think Strong give us probably the best translation of the Greek word though, but notice even it is given in different ways that can be tricky if not used right in scriptures. Lets look at something as an example. John 17:14……> I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not (of )(is it of or from) the world, (notice now) (EVEN AS I AM NOT OF (is it of or from) the world. verse 15….> I pray not that thou should take them out (of) (is it of or from) the world but that thou shouldest keep them from (is it form or of) the evil. Now verse pay close attention to this verse 16….> They are not (of) (or is it from) the world, (EVEN) AS I AM NOT (OF) (or is it from) THE WORLD. The point i am driving at is Jesus saying He is OF or FROM a different Place then the Apostles were. It appears He is NOT (form or of) (any different Place) them the disciples were FROM or OF. John 17:18……….Again is there any difference between Jesus and the Disciples, NO now notice. “(AS) (denotes the same way) THOU HAS SENT ME INTO THE WORLD, EVEN SO (denotes the same way) HAVE I SENT THEM INTO THE WORLD.” If i say a man is (FORM) a place that means he is no longer there, If i say He (OF) a Place he is still there. If i say he is one from that group, that imply he has left that group, if i say he OF that Group that is inclusive in the group another word he is part of it. e are fortunate in English to know the difference by our words , But the Greek used the same word to imply all kind of different things and that could easily distort the true meaning of what is being said. Therefore it is wise to compare the New testament with the Old  and see if they match up exactly or not. IMO Point in all this is  the words from the same Greek definition can be used to separate meanings and this does happen in scripture as translators who were nearly all Trinitarians and Preexistences used this to cause separation between Jesus' Identity and ours and that is still being done today. This is the Spiirt of Antichrist it is the Intellect that works to Separate Jesus' EXACT Identity with US as a HUMAN BEING. peace and love to you all……………………………..gene

To ALL……..Would like commits on this from all.

peace and love to you all…………………..gene

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 04 2010,17:12)

Irene, The fact that you lack knowledge is not a personal attack though you could call it my opinion.  I also included the evidence of why I concluded you lacked knowledge.  It is not a surprise since we are all students of Jesus and thus still learning from him. I certainly do not know everything though I have grown more confident of certain things.  Any “criticism” I have leveled is intended to build you up and not tear you down so I saw nothing offensive about it.

kerwin!  Sorry but I thought of you as a different person, then what I now persive you to be….. When some one becomes personal and says what you did? I find that offensive.  Never to take those Scriptures and say nothing about it, just given me one excuse after the other……..
That shows me that you are not here to learn, like you say.  In one instance I saw that I was wrong and I said so.  You on the other hand knows it all, just like the rest of those who don't believe what Scriptures say……not dealing with them, does not make them go away…….You say that you showed evidence that I lack knowledge??? What according to you and not Scriptures?  Show me one Scripture that I gave you to be wrong?  No my friend criticism is not what builds a person up, it tears a person down…. Especially the kind of criticism you gave by saying that the Scriptures are mistranslated, then it was that I don't know the Gospel and the last one that I don't know the Covenant……In all three instances you are wrong……First you never showed me which Scripture was mistranslated, second I told you that we at the Catholic Church was taught every Sunday out of the Gospels.  I also gave you the New Covenant under Jesus blood, and the great commandments. All that you have been doing giving me one excuse after the other, and never dealing with Scriptures that I gave you….I thank you and good ridden…..I had enough…..Irene
Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,17:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:47) Ed: Quote 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse?  Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16? Well first, the word is “He”, not “God”.  Check NETBible out: http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=16 Out of the nine majors translations shown, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have “God” in that scripture Ed.  You can read the loads of info NETNotes gives about why they, along with the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and the others use the word “He” instead of “God”. Think about it Ed.  The NIV was reportedly translated by over 100 scholars who had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project.  If there was any valid evidence whatsoever that the word should be “God”, don't you think they would have jumped at the chance to render it as “God”? Hi Mike, I have no idea what all that squag is, but could you please answer a simple question for me? Perhaps my question was not specific enough for you; let me rephrase… How was God manifested in the flesh if not “The Word” in Jesus that became flesh? (John 1:14) Please tell me if you don't understand my question before you answer something else I didn't ask; OK? The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism. This is precisely what both John 1:14 and 1Tm.3:16 are talking about here. If you believe something else, let's hear ‘your spin’ on 1Tm.3:16? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

The word “God” is not in 1 Tim 3:16.

That's what the “squag” was showing you.  God was NEVER manifested in the flesh Ed, for no man has seen God AT ANY TIME. God's Son became flesh though.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,21:49)

Hi Mike, So you agree with me then that the “God Spirit” is the essence of “God The Father”?

What is the “God Spirit”?  I know of the Spirit OF God, and I know God IS spirit, but I'm not familiar with any “God Spirit”.

And your second question can be taken two ways.  Please clarify what you meant.

Do you believe that Jesus only had God's finger in him?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,22:15)

6) No; It means that “God The Father”, the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)

Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

No Ed, according to your theory, the above scripture means “the God the Father of your God the Father” will speak through them.

There is nothing else that scripture can be saying if God's Spirit is actually “God the Father” as you claim.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 05 2010,01:05)

……First you never showed me which Scripture was mistranslated,

Yes Kerwin. You have been mentioning “mistranslations” and “scribal errors” a lot lately.

Can you show one of the scriptures Irene quoted in which this is the case?

peace and love,
mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:58)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 05 2010,01:05) ……First you never showed me which Scripture was mistranslated, Yes Kerwin.  You have been mentioning “mistranslations” and “scribal errors” a lot lately.   Can you show one of the scriptures Irene quoted in which this is the case? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike! I am wondering if kerwin will come back and answer my question. I am really rather tired of it all. I always had thought that He was somewhat different then Gene or Martian, but it makes me sad that I was wrong….There is no way that all of those Scriptures were mistranslated….. And they are so plainly written that IMO a child could understand it…. Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

They aren't mistranslated at all Irene. Have you seen our list lately? I organized them by Bible Book.

We have 26 “mistranslated” pre-existence scriptures………..so far!

peace and love,
mike

[kerwin]

To those who support the Preexistence tenet,

An example of a mistranslated word according to your own tenet is the word “make” in John 1:14 since you do not believe that the hypothetical Spiritual being known as Christ was made into flesh. It also does not fit the tenet Holy Spirit, a.k.a. Spirit of God and others came to inhabit Jesus. It does fit the literal Word tenet as God spoke and the world was made. The alternative translation of “married” does fit your tenet.

Your tenet seems to replace the Spirit of Christ with the hypothetical Spiritual being known as Christ.

[Author]

Posts