Preexistence

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,04:13)

Hi Mike,

This verse cannot be taken to mean carry a cross around with you!
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Of course it isn't to be taken literally Ed. But I have answered your questions. Now tell me how God's Holy Spirit, which is “God Himself” BECAME flesh, died, and then raised Himself. How did the Father have a glory of an only begotten FROM the Father?

Remember, the scripture does NOT say the Word “came to be IN someone who WAS flesh”. It says “the Word BECAME flesh”.

mike

October 30, 2010 at 5:25 pm#222189

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,13:38)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 30 2010,13:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,12:38)

FOR KERWIN, GENE, AND ED……….FROM THE JOHN 1:1-3 THREAD:

But 1 John 1 makes it clear that this “Word” cannot be the invisible “Spirit of God”, for they have seen and touched this “Word”.

peace and love,
mike

Hi Mike,

1John1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled, of “The Word” of life;

Did not John write Book's of the Bible?
Did not Peter write Book's of the Bible?
Did not Matthew write a Book of the Bible?
Did not James (Jesus brother) write a Book of the Bible?
Did NOT “all these Disciples hands” HANDLE “The Word” of Life?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Oh brother!

Do you think John was talking about the scriptures?

2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

In which way did the scriptures “appear” to them. And what would be the big deal anyway? They had had the Law and the Prophets for many years by then.

Come on Ed, you are just reaching and twisting and purposely ignoring what is clearly written down.

mike

Hi Mike,

You keep dismissing the FACT that the “HolySpirit” is The Word and life eternal! (John 6:63)
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee(HolySpirit)
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the HolySpirit,
and the HolySpirit was with God,
and the HolySpirit was God.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 30, 2010 at 5:31 pm#222191

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,16:28)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 30 2010,13:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,13:25)

Quote

4) Was the world without “the word” when Jesus ascended into heaven?

No more than the world has been without Jesus since he ascended to heaven. He's not still here in the flesh, but he's still here for us.

mike

Hi Mike,

“The Word” and Jesus (in spirit form) are BOTH here indeed! (John 14:23-24)

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man(Christian) love me,
he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him,
and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
and “The Word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Apparently it's confusing for you Ed. If I have a spokesman and as such he's called “MY WORD”, and then I told you personally, “I give you my word, Ed”, you would think I then gave you my Spokesman, huh?

Hi Mike,

That's a stretch

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

NOBODY would think that your spokesman was your word.
And if you said you gave you word, others would think that you will keep your promise!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 30, 2010 at 5:49 pm#222193

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,16:32)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 30 2010,14:11)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,13:25)

Quote

5) Is the world without “the word” now that Jesus is NOT here in the flesh?

No………answered above.

Now, will you comment on my post about whether it's better to take the scripture as it is written, or “assume” something else is meant? Maybe you could comment or show some error in my thinking about all the things John said about the “Word” are also things we know to be true about Jesus. And maybe you could comment about how we all know Jesus is called the Word in Rev.

mike

Hi Mike,

Should we take Ezekiel 1:1-28 as written?
Or how about the flying scorpions in Rev.9:10?
Or how about the dragon mentioned in Rev.12:3?
Are you going to the place that is mentioned in Rev.4:6?

Who then is lying John or these…

1Kgs:22:19: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD:
I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven
standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

2Chron:18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD;
I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven
standing on his right hand and on his left.

Amos:9:1 I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said,
Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake:
and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword:
he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Why do you 'think' the distinctions you make are correct?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

I will go with the words of Jesus:

John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Hi Mike,

The answer is NEITHER!
The Prophets saw a vision,
God cannot be visually seen!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 30, 2010 at 6:00 pm#222196

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,11:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,16:28)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 30 2010,13:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,13:25)

Quote

4) Was the world without “the word” when Jesus ascended into heaven?

No more than the world has been without Jesus since he ascended to heaven. He's not still here in the flesh, but he's still here for us.

mike

Hi Mike,

“The Word” and Jesus (in spirit form) are BOTH here indeed! (John 14:23-24)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Mike,

That's a stretch

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

NOBODY would think that your spokesman was your word.
And if you said you gave you word, others would think that you will keep your promise!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

you missing the point,there is only one who's represent direct connection to God that is the WORD of God;Christ,

WORD=communicator,between God and all of creation.

Pierre

October 30, 2010 at 6:22 pm#222204

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,03:12)

Gene:

Quote

Mike……….So Thomas did not mean MY Lord (AND) my GOD,were present (IN) Jesus at the time he said that, did he truly mean by this his Lord Jesus Christ (and) his GOD was Present when he said that.

No. Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his “mighty one”.

mike

Hi Mike,

You say to us: don't words mean what they say? And…
'Come on Ed, you are just reaching and twisting and purposely ignoring what is clearly written down.'

Will you not even consider what Gene is telling you?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 30, 2010 at 6:30 pm#222209

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,04:19)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,04:08)

KING of Kings(101) is GOD(26) ((26)יהוה), because 101 is the 26th prime number. (Psalm 29:10 / Psalm 10:16)

And what if it happened to be the 27th prime number? What then?

Come on Ed, forget the numbers that anyone can make say anything. Deal with scripture. How do you figure the Holy Spirit is the Lord of lords and King of kings?

And you can't just say, “Because God is those things”…….because the Holy Spirit is not God Himself, but the Spirit OF God.

mike

Hi Mike,

The answer is: I look at the Bible as a whole! (Click Here)

The real question that matters only to you is: How can I prove it to you!
Like I Posted earlier compare Rev.19:11-21 with Isaiah 63:2-10!
Compare 63:2 with Rev.19:13 and focus on Isaiah 63:10.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 30, 2010 at 6:31 pm#222210

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,03:14)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,03:04)

Quit trying to coral Her it is quite frankly none of your business

And my discussions with Shimmer are “none of your business”, right?

Mike……..Right they are non of mine, so why are they any of your business then? You are good at twisting up things, not only scriptures only. I will give you that.

gene

October 30, 2010 at 6:44 pm#222211

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,04:31)

NOBODY would think that your spokesman was your word.
And if you said you gave you word, others would think that you will keep your promise!

Hi Ed,

Why God’s Son is called “the Word.” A title often describes the function served or the duty performed by the bearer. So it was with the title Kal-Hatzé, meaning “the voice or word of the king,” that was given an Abyssinian officer. Based on his travels from 1768 to 1773, James Bruce describes the duties of the Kal-Hatzé as follows. He stood by a window covered with a curtain through which, unseen inside, the king spoke to this officer. He then conveyed the message to the persons or party concerned. Thus the Kal-Hatzé acted as the word or voice of the Abyssinian king.—Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile, London, 1790, Vol. III, p. 265; Vol. IV, p. 76.

peace and love,
mike

October 30, 2010 at 6:48 pm#222212

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,04:25)

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee(HolySpirit)
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

No Ed,

God's name is Jehovah. Jehovah has a Spirit, as do we all. Our spirits are not “us” any more than Jehovah's Spirit is Him.

mike

October 30, 2010 at 6:52 pm#222213

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,05:22)

Hi Mike,

You say to us: don't words mean what they say? And…
'Come on Ed, you are just reaching and twisting and purposely ignoring what is clearly written down.'

Will you not even consider what Gene is telling you?

Ed:

Quote

Hi Mike,

You say to us: don't words mean what they say? And…
'Come on Ed, you are just reaching and twisting and purposely ignoring what is clearly written down.'

Look it up Ed. “god” does mean “mighty one”.

Ed:

Quote

Will you not even consider what Gene is telling you?

Only if and when he speaks scripturally WITHOUT the “reaching and twisting”. I examine all of Gene's “proof scriptures” as he posts them. The problem is that none of them eliminate the fact that Jesus pre-exsited.

mike

October 30, 2010 at 6:59 pm#222215

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,05:30)

The real question that matters only to you is: How can I prove it to you!
Like I Posted earlier compare Rev.19:11-21 with Isaiah 63:2-10!
Compare 63:2 with Rev.19:13 and focus on Isaiah 63:10.

I have examined them. Maybe you can walk us all through HOW those particular scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is the Word of God mentioned in Revelation………..or in the Gospel of John for that matter.

The Holy Spirit can fill a flesh person with knowledge, feelings, etc. But God's SPIRIT cannot BECOME FLESH and remaing a Spirit at the same time, can it? And what became flesh in John 1:14 is the same thing that had the glory of an only begotten from the Father.

You can't rightfully assert (as you try to) that the one who became flesh was the Holy Spirit, but the one who had the glory of an only begotten from the Father was Jesus. The passage speaks of only one subject…….not two. And the passage DOESN'T say the Word “came to be IN someone who WAS flesh”.

mike

October 30, 2010 at 7:01 pm#222216

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,05:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,03:14)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,03:04)

Quit trying to coral Her it is quite frankly none of your business

And my discussions with Shimmer are “none of your business”, right?

Mike……..Right they are non of mine, so why are they any of your business then? You are good at twisting up things, not only scriptures only. I will give you that.

gene

Really Gene? You admit that MY discussions with Shimmer are none of you business, but then you assert that MY discussions with Shimmer are none of MY business?

mike

October 30, 2010 at 7:09 pm#222219

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 31 2010,05:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,03:12)

Gene:

Quote

No. Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his “mighty one”.

mike

Hi Mike,

You say to us: don't words mean what they say? And…
'Come on Ed, you are just reaching and twisting and purposely ignoring what is clearly written down.'

Will you not even consider what Gene is telling you?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ………You have this right, Mike as well as all preexistences and Trinitarians are nothing more then a shell game artists who do not except (CLEAR EXACT) SCRIPTURES THAT SAY SOMETHING THINGS by Changing their context, and this is what Martian meant by him being dishonest with scriptures. I personally do not see him as dishonest with Scripture i see him as bing deluded to their meanings. Because he has bought into the LIE Paul and John was talking about many years ago and is not willing to give it up yet. Jesus will set these things straight when he returns much to the dismay of many deluded teachers of Preexistence and trinitarians. The blinders are still on all preexistences and trinitarians and will remain there until the Lord removes.

Haven't you ever notices how the only scriptures they use all revolve around around scriptures that can be taken all kind of ways, but never a SPECIFIC AND CLEAR CUT SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT THEM.

Example Mike keep using this thing about Jesus having the Glory before in GODS present before the world was and can not even understand that we all have Glory in GODS Present before the world ever was, because it was all in GODS plan and Purpose before the world was. Even though there are many Scriptures that show this. Which we have quoted many times here they just ignores them and go on as if they do not even exist.

That is why i laid out the question i did to Mike and notice he still refused to acknowledge there truthfulness, but try to twist up thing and turn it to his desires and then says i haven't answered his before which is not even true at all. They attack Martians character when in fact martin just got frustrated with their antics here as other have also.

They try to turn the table around all the time to avoid direct answers to specific questions. As i have said here before several time “you can corner a snake in a brier path”. He has to many places to shoot off to.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

October 30, 2010 at 7:23 pm#222223

Participant

Mike………..See the snake thing i wrote above, you well know what i was talking about was your nosing into He personal feelings as that being none of your business or my either. But slick as you are and as good of twister of truth as you are you could not even rightly deal with that. Shimmer has a right to believe and speak as she so choses here and doesn't have to answer to you for anything she feels or thinks , but you need to judge this that you don't lay a stumbling block to any believer in GOD and Jesus. Discussing the word of GOD is one thing but Nosing into peoples personal lives uninvited is quite another. IMO

gene

October 30, 2010 at 7:58 pm#222230

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,06:23)

Shimmer has a right to believe and speak as she so choses here and doesn't have to answer to you for anything she feels or thinks , but you need to judge this that you don't lay a stumbling block to any believer in GOD and Jesus.

Gene,

Shimmer already admitted to JA and all of us that YOU had become a “stumbling block” to her for a moment. I'm only trying to make sure she recognizes you for what you truly are…..a “stumbling block”. On this topic and many others.

mike

October 30, 2010 at 8:06 pm#222231

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,06:09)

Haven't you ever notices how the only scriptures they use all revolve around around scriptures that can be taken all kind of ways, but never a SPECIFIC AND CLEAR CUT SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT THEM.

Hey Gene,

So now I'm not only the antichrist, but a “snake”, a “shell game artist” and “dishonest”? Boy, where is Shimmer when you need her?

Listen to the scriptures, Gene. Jesus, the person, HAD glory in God's presence. Are YOU aware of any glory YOU HAD in God's presence before the world was created? Because Jesus was aware of the glory HE HAD. He speaks of the glory HE HAD in God's presence while the universe and everything in it was being created through him.

Just believe the words of scripture without twisting them to fit your doctrine, and you will come out of her Gene.

peace and love,
mike

October 30, 2010 at 10:20 pm#222265

Participant

Mike ………Yes i am in fact ………..> Psa 8:4…> what is man , that thou are mindful of him> and the son of Man, that thou visits him, 5….for thou has made him (man) a little lower then the angels, and has crowned him with (GLORY) and Honor . MY (HAST) CROWN HIM (a past tense expression) so i guess we have had Glory with GOD in the Past right, according to preexistences reasonings.

Before i leaves this part of scriptures , it also “THOU HAST PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET”: HAST IS A (past tense ) expression.

Now has that already happened Mike to you Yes but I don not see (ALL THINGS) UNDER MY FEET , HOW ABOUT YOU.

Perhaps you need more clarity Mike so lets go the the book of Hebrews and see if we can find some there.

Heb 2:6……> But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is Man , that thou art mindful of him? or the Son of man, that thou visits him?..7….> Thou madest him a little lower than the angels: thou crownedst ( past tense) him with GLORY and HONOR, and didst (past tense) set him over the works of thy Hands ..8..> Thou hast (past tense) put (ALL) things in subjction under His FEET. For in that he (GOD) put (past tense) ALL in subjection , he left (NOTHING) that is not under him (man).

Mike now start to notice thing are being clearified even thou it apperas by sentence sturcture tha this already existed,…. Continuing..>8 … But (NOW) we see not YET all things put under Him (MAN).

But what do we See MIKE?

Heb 2:9……….But we see Jesus, (Mike notice his (exact) identity with Us) who was (MADE) a little lower (like us) than the angles for the suffering of death, (like us) (NOW) Crowned with GLORY and HONOR; that by the GRACE of GOD should taste death for every man.

Mike we were MADE LOWER then the Angels ALSO Just like Jesus was , not difference between him and us all thing were made to be {ut Under OUr FEET and WE are CRowned wit Glory and Hnor also along with Jesus we are JOINT Heirs of ALL this With Jesus He is our true Brother in every way . In fact it say we will rule as Kings and Priest of GOD also with Jesus our brother.. Preexistences and Trinitarians are Separatist and separate Jesus form our Exact identity.

peace and love…………gene

October 30, 2010 at 10:35 pm#222267