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Hi All,
Despite the many scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence, the non-preexisters manage to mangle the meaning and claim the opposite of what the scriptures say. But none of them have yet to explain this one:
Phil 2:5-7 NIV
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.The Greek words for the last part of verse 7 say Jesus was “made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.”
So I have only one question for all the non-preexisters here:
Can anyone who already IS a human being be made in the likeness OF a human being?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2010,02:24) T8, You wrote:
Quote What is false about Jesus being the root and branch of David?
Scripture reads:
Isaiah 11:1(KJV) reads:
Quote And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
or
Isaiah 11:1(NIV) reads:
Quote A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.I fail to see where you get that Jesus is the root of Jesse, i.e. David's father, from this passage. In addition my search located no other scripture closer than this one to what you write.
On the other hand if you choose to speak figuratively then Jesus is the root of David's and Abraham's faith for they looked forward towards his coming even knowing he was to be their decedent.
Kerwin……………You have posted it correctly and Produces Scripture that shows what the root Jesus was referring to was. They simply don't understand it. They will ignor it and not even address it. Martian ,JA, Jodi, barely, Marty, me and other have also produced scriptures that show Jesus was (TO BE) future tense, the son of GOD and when that took place as GOD said (THIS DAY) HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE) NOT SOME FAR DISTANT PAST EXISTENCE, but Mystery Religion has infected most Christianity and the Preexistences are no exception here either as well as Trinitarians they both are Antichrists, by separating His exact identity with us and this is what denies GOD'S work in Mankind. Their picture of What GOD can and Does do IN MAN Has been distorted by their false Doctrines. They have moved Jesus (EXAMPLE) away from themselves they can not say Jesus is truly their Brother because their doctrines speak against that. Nor do they believe they are JOINT Heirs with Christ nor do they Believe they can come to the measure of the (FULLNESS) of the STATURE of CHRIST, and their false teaching prove they don't believe they can.What i find interesting is I posted many scriptures that proved Jesus did not Preexist his berth and Not of them deal with (ANY) of those Scriptures Posted. They intern have not produced (ONE) scripture that (SAYS) JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF BEING WHAT SO EVER. They just force text out of context to try to force their false teachings. The true love of the truth is not in them IMO so they serve the Spirit of delusion sent unto them From GOD, because they love not the Truth, as Spoken of in 2Ths 2. They have bought into that LIE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,05:19) What i find interesting is I posted many scriptures that proved Jesus did not Preexist his berth and Not of them deal with (ANY) of those Scriptures Posted.
Hi Gene,Not only did I “deal with” the scriptures you produced, I solidly showed you that NONE of them eliminate the possibility that Jesus pre-existed.
Would you care to try again? But maybe first, you could attempt to answer the question from my last post……..the one I've been asking you for months now to no avail.
peace and love,
mikeMike……….Taking things out of context we can all make our own teaching stick. You Know as well as I that Paul was not addressing Jesus preexistence in that Scripture. But His Humbleness and trying to make to into something else is forcing the text to fit your Personal dogmas. You say you have dealt with what scriptures i have posted is simply not true. I posted about ten of them in an earlier post and not one word from you or anyone else either, so don't give me this i have dealt with them bit.You say none of what i posted did not preclude Jesus' Preexistences is false , If GOD said He SHALL be of the lions of DAVID and Abraham and He would be from the SEED of the WOMEN , And I SHALL BE a Father unto HIM and He Shall be a SON UNTO ME. Saying this doesn't preclude His preexistence then you are simply blind or Lying Mike. As Far as i understand SHALL or WILL are not Past tense or Present tense but (FUTURE TENSE) Word. So Yes the does preclude Him preexisting as any of those things. When God told David from His Lions would come forth a person to rule His Kingdom for ever yes the does preclude Jesus Preexistence.
Peace and love………………………………gene
Hi Gene,
Produce ONE of those scriptures you say I didn't already address right here and right now so I can address it again.
Then, you can produce another and another until you are satisfied I've addressed each and every one of them.
I remember your post with 10 scriptures and I addressed them Gene. None of them eliminate the possibility that Jesus pre-existed. Go back and read my first post to Jodi Lee in the Phil 2 thread. I have told you and Martian before and I reaffirmed to Jodi that this is not personal to me. I can follow what Jesus taught equally well whether he pre-existed or not. I'm only trying to believe things happened the way the scriptures say they happened. It is YOU who is at odds with scripture Gene…….not me.
But in the meantime, could you answer the question I've been asking you for months?
Or for that matter, maybe you could tell me about some teaching of Jesus that you have ever followed in your entire life that you couldn't have followed if Jesus pre-existed?
How about some answers for once Gene, instead of diatribe?
mike
Mike………..You here is just one < To him who overcomes (EVEN AS I HAVE) would not work because I would not be the same as Jesus if he were a different kind of Being having a past perfect existence , it would not be fair to ask me to overcome Just as He had. Because He had a advantage over Me. So how could i in REAL terms do it (EVEN) as HE did. Martian brought that out and you failed to answer it even though you continue to say you have, but in truth you have not.
You say if you answered my post is not true either, and that was why martian was telling you of your dishonesty you excercise. You think that by just changing subjects or ignoring what is posted or saying how does that change our ability to overcome means nothing if Jesus Preexisted or not. That is not the question here, what is the Question is Did He preexist His earthly berth as a being or not, and Yes that does greately effect our view of Him and our Identity with Him as a Brother and relationship with GOD as a Pure Human Being. Why do you think John said what he said about him coming in the flesh three times for it does effect our view of Jesus very much, to the point He called everyone who denies that, a Antichrist. So don't give us this it is not important rather we believe Jesus did or did not Preexist bull. It is very important if we do or do not believe it because it effects GOD dealings With the HUMAN RACE, rather then a preexisting Being of Some KIND>
peace and love…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:18) Mike………..You here is just one < To him who overcomes (EVEN AS I HAVE) would not work because I would not be the same as Jesus if he were a different kind of Being having a past perfect existence , it would not be fair to ask me to overcome Just as He had. Because He had a advantage over Me. So how could i in REAL terms do it (EVEN) as HE did. Martian brought that out and you failed to answer it even though you continue to say you have, but in truth you have not. peace and love…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence!
You are really obsessed with this idea of preexistence; huh?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Mike……… i will try to repost all those Scripture and Just tell me if they show that Jesus did or did not Preexist as a Son of Abraham and DAVID and was from the same Roots of David or not . And don't try to divert to, “does it make a difference or not” thing to shirt the issue of Jesus Preexistence this time.
We can start with this simple one……….Matt 1:! THE BOOK OF TE GENERATIONS OF JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF DAVID, THE SON OF DAVID.
Now before we go of in all kinds of directions lets establish this first did Jesus have a genealogy or not, and was it from Adam through Abraham through David or not. A simple yes or No will do. There are many but we can start with this first, and if you can't get this then what is the use of going on to any thing else. You would be lost from the start if you can't understand this. So there would be no point to continue on. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
Mike……….Sorry the above Quote from Matt 1:1 …..should have been Written “the Book of the generations of Jesus Christ Son of Abraham , the Son of David”. All the rest applies.
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2010,12:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:18) Mike………..You here is just one < To him who overcomes (EVEN AS I HAVE) would not work because I would not be the same as Jesus if he were a different kind of Being having a past perfect existence , it would not be fair to ask me to overcome Just as He had. Because He had a advantage over Me. So how could i in REAL terms do it (EVEN) as HE did. Martian brought that out and you failed to answer it even though you continue to say you have, but in truth you have not. peace and love…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence!
You are really obsessed with this idea of preexistence; huh?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
EDJ…………It have everything to do with it, because that separation of Jesus from our Identity in any way establishes a Separation . I as well a John are certainly obsessed with that false teaching and Paul was to. Because it is this very iniquity that has created all these separations that exist in Christianity to this very day. And it is most certainly the teachings of the Antichrist that impregnates all Christendom today. It is part of the GREAT LIE Mentioned on 2 Ths 2.peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:33) Mike……… i will try to repost all those Scripture and Just tell me if they show that Jesus did or did not Preexist as a Son of Abraham and DAVID and was from the same Roots of David or not . And don't try to divert to, “does it make a difference or not” thing to shirt the issue of Jesus Preexistence this time. We can start with this simple one……….Matt 1:! THE BOOK OF TE GENERATIONS OF JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF DAVID, THE SON OF DAVID.
Now before we go of in all kinds of directions lets establish this first did Jesus have a genealogy or not, and was it from Adam through Abraham through David or not. A simple yes or No will do. There are many but we can start with this first, and if you can't get this then what is the use of going on to any thing else. You would be lost from the start if you can't understand this. So there would be no point to continue on. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
Hi Gene,How does Luke 20:41-44 interplay into your opinions?
Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he(Christ) then his(David's) son?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:47) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2010,12:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:18) Mike………..You here is just one < To him who overcomes (EVEN AS I HAVE) would not work because I would not be the same as Jesus if he were a different kind of Being having a past perfect existence , it would not be fair to ask me to overcome Just as He had. Because He had a advantage over Me. So how could i in REAL terms do it (EVEN) as HE did. Martian brought that out and you failed to answer it even though you continue to say you have, but in truth you have not. peace and love…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence!
You are really obsessed with this idea of preexistence; huh?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
EDJ…………It have everything to do with it, because that separation of Jesus from our Identity in any way establishes a Separation . I as well a John are certainly obsessed with that false teaching and Paul was to. Because it is this very iniquity that has created all these separations that exist in Christianity to this very day. And it is most certainly the teachings of the Antichrist that impregnates all Christendom today. It is part of the GREAT LIE Mentioned on 2 Ths 2.peace and love…………………..gene
Hi Gene,Please explain (to us all here at h-net) what preexistence has to do with 2 Ths 2 ?
EDJ………..So you now are saying that Jesus was saying he was NOT DAVIDS Son . Funny i don't see Him saying that there DO you, why add your thoughts to what Jesus said. If He ask (how), where doe that equal Jesus ever say His was (Not) the Son of David, in fact if that is what you believe I can Quote You scripture where Jesus Plainly said He WAS THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID AND I CAN SHOW YOU WHERE GOD TOLD DAVID HE WOULD BE FROM DAVIDS LOINS. Not to even mention Matt 1:1 that shows Jesus genealogy, or where Paul said he was the (SECOND) “MAN” ADAM. So are we to believe Adam Preexisted His earthly creation also. You are doing what all false teachers do they reject all the scriptures that show differently then what they saying. All trinitarians and Preexistences do the same thing they force the text to fit there false understanding and the Trinity and Preexistences do the same thing as each other do.
Peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,13:09) EDJ………..So you now are saying that Jesus was saying he was NOT DAVIDS Son . Peace and love…………………….gene
Hi Gene,Jesus lineage explained
“Son of Man”: 25%; Mary's mother's lineage was of the tribe of Levi. (Luke 1:5, 1:36)
“Son of Man”: 25%: Mary's father's lineage was (Judah) through Nathan(son of David). (Luke 3:23-31)
“Son of God”: 50%: Jesus' Father was the “HolySpirit”; NOT Joseph! (Mathew 1:18 / Mathew 1:20 / Luke 1:35)Birth: Jesus was 50% HolySpirit(God)(Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35), 25% Levite(Priest) and 25% Judah(King)!
Baptism by John the baptizer, Jesus was filled with the HolySpirit(God) beyond measure! (John 3:34 / John 1:14)Here is why Jesus is called both the “Son of Man” and the “Son of God”…
Mother Father
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,13:09) EDJ……….. You are doing what all false teachers do they reject all the scriptures that show differently then what they saying.
Peace and love…………………….gene
Hi Gene,Who is the one who is really rejecting Scriptures here,
go back an re-read my last post to you; OK?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ…………interestin you say somehting you put together, But Jesus describes Himself as the Root and offspring of DAVID in Revelations > I thing i will go with what Jesus and scripture says not your put together number or Percentage thing thank you.Many scripture show Jesus linage Just post those that is good enough for me. Jesus was a 100% Pure HUMAN BEING that is all he ever was and all He will ever Be. Him being a son of GOD is Just the same as we are, there is (NO) difference Between Jesus and Us in our relationship with GOD the FATHER now or ever will be. IMO
peace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,13:31) EDJ…………interestin you say somehting you put together, But Jesus describes Himself as the Root and offspring of DAVID in Revelations > I thing i will go with what Jesus and scripture says not your put together number or Percentage thing thank you.Many scripture show Jesus linage Just post those that is good enough for me. Jesus was a 100% Pure HUMAN BEING that is all he ever was and all He will ever Be. Him being a son of GOD is Just the same as we are, there is (NO) difference Between Jesus and Us in our relationship with GOD the FATHER now or ever will be. IMO peace and love……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,Hopefully you will retain the Scriptural information
in my previous Post for God to recall at a later date!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,12:33) We can start with this simple one……….Matt 1:! THE BOOK OF TE GENERATIONS OF JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF DAVID, THE SON OF DAVID.
Very good Gene……..a scripture!Matthew 1:1 NIV
1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:Gene, you have aptly pointed out that John referred to Jesus as “coming in the flesh”. No man who was nothing but flesh is referred to as “COMING in the flesh”, but that is for another time. At any rate, I know and acknowledge that my Lord most definitely “CAME in the flesh” as the fleshly offspring of Abraham, David, and Mary. How does Matthew 1:1 imply that Jesus didn't have a pre-existence BEFORE he came in the flesh as the son of David, especially in light of Matthew 22?
Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.You are like the Pharisees here Gene. They also thought that the Messiah would be just an ordinary man who would be “exactly like them”. The whole point of Jesus' teaching here is to show them – and future generations like us – that they were mistaken.
And this scripture is backed up by others that say Jesus is not only the “Branch” or “Offspring” of David, but also the “Root”. (Is 11:10, Rev 5:5, 22:16)
So Gene, YES Jesus was the offspring of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. I wholeheartedly agree with Matt 1:1, for it is the word of God. But……..it doesn't speak one word that eliminates Jesus' pre-existence.
Your turn:
Phil 2:6-7 – How can someone who already IS a human being be made in the likeness of a human being?
peace and love,
mikeMike……….So what was John saying then when he said that those who deny Christ coming in the Flesh were Antichrist and that was the Spirit of Antichrist, this spirit of denial of Jesus COMING INTO EXISTENCE IN THE FLESH> Was what John was speaking of < but why was he so adamant about us viewing Jesus as a flesh and blood Human Being to make such a Profound statement and repeated it three times in the original Greek Translation. If they all thought Jesus was a preexisting Being so what if that was true why would John get upset over that, to the point of calling those who profess that as Antichrist , How would they be even considered Antichrists then. If you understood the teachings of the Gnostic's which is the same as yours and the Trinitarians are . it would make very clear sense to you why John said that.
Another thing i notices You failed to deal with God Telling DAVID that from His (loins) would come a SoN who would rule over His Kingdom and establish it for ever. That Jessie was the Root of both David and Jesus and Jesus identified Himself with the root stock in revelations is clear. Not where doe Jesus ever say He preexisted His Berth on Earth as any Kind of Being , If he did then Post it and for that matter Post any apostle as saying Jesus Preexisted His Berth on earth < even Peter said He was (foreordained) but was manifested in OUR time. So Why would Not peter Just simply said He preexisted and was Incarnated in a Man in our time , seems Peter didi not doubt He came into existence as a human being through a berth process Just like we all did.
No apostle ever made any point of saying Jesus was Not a Pure Human Being from His start to his Present , He is the First to be Born from mankind into the Kingdom of God of (MANY BRETHREN) We are Joint Heirs with him Just as scripture says.. You and all who believe in the preexistence of Jesus have all bought into the BIGGEST LIE ever Produced against the Truth of GOD. The trinitarian and Preexistence teaching are with out a doubt the teachings of the Antichrists. They take the (MAN) JESUS and turn His IMAGE into the MAN OF SIN by Making Him another GOD or being we should worship as a equal of GOD in one form or another. Those teaching deny GOD'S work (IN) the MAN JESUS. Just as it say we Have only (ONE) GOD and (ONE) Mediator between GOD and Man, THE (MAN) Jesus Christ. Do you see the morphed being there, or the demigod, or the GOD there, Yes you do in fact.
peace and love…………………………………..gene
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