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Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2010,21:07) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2010,01:51) Pierre, I do not believe Jesus preexisted his conception though I cannot totally discount the reasonable possibility of a preexistant human soul.
Hi Kerwin,If we all preexisted, then how would Jesus be any different than the rest of us?
With the exception of Jesus having no biological Father of course. (Luke 3:23)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Jesus is basically the same.The exceptions being that he received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before his birth and God anointed him as King of Heaven and Earth.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2010,03:09) Irene, For reasons that Jesus explained to his student both he and his disciples choose to speak in mysticism. My suspicion is the Hebrew language, which is descriptive, influenced their mind set. Jesus did not mention that.
John uses these mysticisms in most or all of the books attributed to him. For example the word “Word”, which according to its Hebrew equivalent can mean “word, spirit, breath, etc.” If we substitute “Spirit” for “Word” and remember that the Spirit can either be addressed as a person or as a thing then we find it does fit the context. In addition if we remember that Paul teaches us that The Lord is Spirit we find that it is equivalent to stating Jesus is the Word. He is the Word because he is the embodiment of the Spirit of God.
It is true that the Spirit of Christ did come down from heaven.
kerwin, yet you deny all those other Scriptures, even when Jesus is talking? Look it does not do anything for the trinity. It even proves the trinity wrong, sine He was created by His Father, and He comes to do the will of His Father. If in Hebrew the Word means Spirit, we do know that Jesus was in Heaven as a Spirit Being, just like his Father Jehovah God, and emptied Himself and came down to do the will of who Him who send Him…..And all the rest of those Scriptures? It simple does not make sense what soever to just ignore them…….The one Scripture especially in Rev. 19:13-16 how can you deny those? He will come again as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. As far as it being mysticism, that is the Catholic Church talking. There religion is the Mystery religion….When Christ will come again, then only the truths will be taught,and all of us will have to believe what Jesus will teach us…… Until then Auf Wiedersehn on this subject with you….. IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2010,01:19) Shimmer Probably 95% of what you hear is from false teachers who have fallen into MYSTERY RELIGIOUS teachings. All who separate Jesus from our (EXACT) Identity are Antichrists they have brought into the pagan iniquity's and are not of GOD. The Truth will set you free from those teachings Shimmer. Go back and read what martian, barely, Jodi, Marty, JA, and I have said and don't fall for these false teachers here who practice and preach false religion of the Fallen Churches. “COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE THAT YOU RECEIVE NOT OF (HER) PLAGUES”. MYSTERY BABYLON RELIGION IS WHAT CHRISTIANITY HAS BECOME FULL OF FALSE TEACHINGS. One of the worst is that Jesus is different then we are Shimmer, Do not fall for it Sis. peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hi Gene, if as you and others say this is a false teaching, what do you think was the purpose of bringing in the false teaching, what effect has it had ?Scripture says Jesus was concieved of the Holy Spirit, what do you understand it to mean?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2010,01:22) Shimmer. Jesus existed in the form of God/with divine nature, and emptied himself and existed in flesh nature, then humbled himself and died, rose again, and is now seated at the right hand of the majesty on high in the glory that he had with him before the world begun. That is the truth because it is scripture. My statement above is not my own words but a repeat of that which is written. Don't let anyone talk you out of what scripture teaches. There are no end of volunteers who would love to sway you away from the scripture, but don't let them sway you away from scripture if indeed this is what you believe.
Thanks t8.Irene,
True Christianity expresses God’s, i.e. Spiritual, truths as mysticisms to hide the truth from those who love to do evil. Jesus teaches as much when speaking of parables in Matthew 13:10-15. A mystery religion has secret rites and knowledge reserved for those initiated to the appropriate level to be told them. That is not quite the same thing.
Do you consider the spirit of Christ to be an incorporeal being?
Do you believe that the Spirit of Christ dwells in Jesus?
Shimmer,
You wrote:
Quote Scripture says Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, what do you understand it to mean?
He was created, i.e. formed by a miracle of God who acted through the holy spirit, in his mother's reproductive system using genetic material descended from David.
Jeremiah 1:5(NIV) reads:
Quote “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2010,10:23) Irene, True Christianity expresses God’s, i.e. Spiritual, truths as mysticisms to hide the truth from those who love to do evil. Jesus teaches as much when speaking of parables in Matthew 13:10-15. A mystery religion has secret rites and knowledge reserved for those initiated to the appropriate level to be told them. That is not quite the same thing.
Do you consider the spirit of Christ to be an incorporeal being?
Do you believe that the Spirit of Christ dwells in Jesus?
kerwin, Scripture in
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
However there is also a spirit in men, and Christ has a Spirit, He was a Spirit being then and is now. Not only that Christ has immortality now, which He did not have before dying for us…..
Of couse Christ had also God's Holy Spirit full strenght when He was a man, while we have it in measue…..Peace Irene
That should answer your Question….. Peace Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2010,18:23) Shimmer, You wrote:
Quote Scripture says Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, what do you understand it to mean?
He was created, i.e. formed by a miracle of God who acted through the holy spirit, in his mother's reproductive system using genetic material descended from David.
Jeremiah 1:5(NIV) reads:
Quote “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
kerwinGal 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
Jesus, if he would be man ,he would have not need for God to send the Holy spirit (power of the will of God)
to do that work,God could have used Joseph,no??
but this transformation needed the powers of God that s why there is no doubts that Christ was what he say he was from above and was truly the son of God ,before ,then,and now,and forever.
Pierre
To all ……..If the promise was to Abraham (AND HIS SEED) Which is Christ Jesus then why deny He was the SEED of Abraham and David , by falsely trying to say He preexisted both of them then. One Mystery teaching after another.
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2010,19:10) To all ……..If the promise was to Abraham (AND HIS SEED) Which is Christ Jesus then why deny He was the SEED of Abraham and David , by falsely trying to say He preexisted both of them then. One Mystery teaching after another. peace and love………………………gene
genewhy do you not believe Christ wen he say ;before Abraham I WAS ;
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2010,12:10) To all ……..If the promise was to Abraham (AND HIS SEED) Which is Christ Jesus then why deny He was the SEED of Abraham and David , by falsely trying to say He preexisted both of them then. One Mystery teaching after another. peace and love………………………gene
What is false about Jesus being the root and branch of David?Again it is written, and you change that to mean the complete opposite of what it says at face value.
I mean isn't that suspicious behaviour. To take all scriptures that talk about Jesus in this way and to interpret them in an opposite way.
Gene, Kerwin, What I don't understand….I believe our life, as we grow up we find theres more to life than 'just ourselves', we learn through our own mistakes, we learn through what we see, what we have been though, we learn to trust God, to turn to him, to go through life day by day and try to do our best, to be kind and tolerant of others, to be pleasant and empathic to the people we live amongst in society, to act with humbleness (ok I guess you get the point…)…so, we live in the world and struggle through it, and try to keep away from the bad….and the world we live in God created, with beauty…Do we believe in God ? Do we believe in Jesus the son ? Do we believe we can have the Holy Spirit in us ? Do we pray ?
Does believing in pre-existence or not change anything ? What is the key difference in the two beliefs and the effects it could have on a person ?
I find this interesting, why I'm interested is the 'fruits' side of it. Because by their fruits you will know them. Do certain doctrines produce good fruit or bad fruit,
And Gene, Kerwin, what of verses like this…
'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee”;
“Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.”
And if the word Logos means Gods reason or spoken word or thought then how can that be a 'Him or He' in John 1
How do you see that ?
Quote I find this interesting, why I'm interested is the 'fruits' side of it. Because by their fruits you will know them. Do certain doctrines produce good fruit or bad fruit, Shimmer,
Only doctrines that entice the believer to fail in their love for God or man. This would not include, in my opinion, misunderstandings on the makeup of God's Son. However as we are to be lead into all truth, ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit over time will open a person up to other, more serious, errors. We need a love for truth, not doctrine.My opinion – Wm
T8,
You wrote:
Quote What is false about Jesus being the root and branch of David?
Scripture reads:
Isaiah 11:1(KJV) reads:
Quote And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
or
Isaiah 11:1(NIV) reads:
Quote A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.I fail to see where you get that Jesus is the root of Jesse, i.e. David's father, from this passage. In addition my search located no other scripture closer than this one to what you write.
On the other hand if you choose to speak figuratively then Jesus is the root of David's and Abraham's faith for they looked forward towards his coming even knowing he was to be their decedent.
Shimmer,
Do you believe a heroic soldier can be glorified by receiving a medal post humorously even though they are not there?
Do you believe God knows all things whether they are at present, will be in the future, or have been in the past?
Given that you do believe both of those then you should also be able to believe that God glorified Jesus by foreordaining him to be the King of heaven and earth long before he created him in
Mary’s reproduction system.The Jews and Greeks often assign gender to neuter nouns. The Hebrews favored the feminine gender while the Greeks favored the male gender. In addition the spirit, i.e. Word, may either be a person or have attributes of a person according to Jewish theology.
Only one doctrine allows you to receive the spirit of righteousness and you must have it to produce good fruit versus fruit that either just looks good or fruit that looks bad.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2010,02:24) I fail to see where you get that Jesus is the root of Jesse, i.e. David's father, from this passage. In addition my search located no other scripture closer than this one to what you write.
Hi Kerwin,Maybe this scripture will help.
Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”peace and love,
mike
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