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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,17:11) WJ………Because his name shall be called the Word of God, does not make him the words He spoke no were those word from Him, they were from GOD the Father, who spoke to us (THROUGH) Christ as He also did the Prophets. If Jesus claimed to be those words he would be a liar and a thief. “THE WORD I AM TELLING YOU ARE (NOT) MY WORD BUT THE WORDS OF HIM WHO SENT ME”. So how could Jesus be the very words he spoke then. Forcing text to say or infer what it does not specifically infer is bad form WJ. IMO peace and love………………………..gene
GeneJohn 1:1 and 1st John 1:1-3 does not say he is the spoken Word of God.
John 1:14 tells us who came in the flesh, it doesn't say the “spoken word of God” became flesh does it Gene, so that is your inference and you are adding to the text, and it was not the Father that came in the flesh, was it?
Rev 19:13 confirms that Jesus is the “Word” for he is given the title “The Word of God”!
WJ
Hi WJ,
Jesus is alive according to the Spirit of holiness in Rev19.[Rom1]
We no longer speak of him according to the flesh[2Cor5]Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2010,13:34) Hi MB,
Did Adam have a human father?
So he was different too?
Yes Nick,I already answered that 3 or 4 pages ago.
mike
Quote (martian @ July 27 2010,02:15) If you have a source that says Bara in Genesis 1:1 is of the qal tence, I submit it is wrong[ for the following reasons –
1. The Hebrew culture of the time could not allow for the rational that something came from nothing.
2. The entire context of Genesis 1 is the filing of the universe including Earth and man.
3. The expert testimony of Dr. Jeff Benner and the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon along with ISBE.
Interesting Martian,I will delve deeper into it.
In the mean time, can anyone help me with a scripture that says God made something “out of nothing”? It seems I've read it, but can't place my finger on it.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,11:47) Hi MB,
So in what ways are you different from Adam, not counting the umbilicus?
I doubt I'll live 930 years.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2010,03:30) I find it interesting that you berate the anti-prexistence crowd for not accepting the literal interpretation of the scrptures you quote and yet you reject the literal interpretation of John 1:1.
Please WJ!
You don't ever post the “literal” John 1:1. You can't. It's one of your staple “proof texts”. Compare John 1:1 with the 1 John 1:1 that t8 just posted. The only difference is that 1 John says Jesus was with “the Father”, while John says he was with “God”.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,04:53) WJ………….I see the word (Word there) but where is the word (Jesus) Written there? forcing texts is not a good thing but you Trinitarians and Preexistences all have no problem pulling out word and replacing them with your own. Wonder what John will say probably something like this , DO YOU THINK I WAS SO STUPID THAT IF I WANTED TO MEAN JESUS I WOULD NOT HAVE JUST WRITTEN JESUS THERE. Then what will be your answer, Duh, we didn't know that. peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Hey Gene,I have an exercise for you. Go through the whole Bible (including OT prophesies) and count how many different names Jesus is called. Then try to explain how NONE of them are really about Jesus because if the writer meant “Jesus”, he would have just said “Jesus”.
Sorry brother, but that is a weak argument, especially in light of the many, many times Irene has pointed you to Rev.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,11:47) Hi MB,
So in what ways are you different from Adam, not counting the umbilicus?
Hi Nick,God is not my “immediate” father. I have never talked to God without the need for a mediator. There are many differences, between us and Adam, Eve and Jesus.
Do you agree? Or are you with Martian and need Jesus to be just like you no matter what scripture teaches?
mike
Hi MB,
So he was exactly the same as you despite these external differences?
Are you not a son of Adam?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,01:35) T8………..One simple problem and that is the WORD who is GOD the FATHER was (IN) Jesus, the word it self was (NOT) Jesus. 'THE WORDS I AM TELLING YOU ARE (NOT) (MY) WORDS BUT THE WORD OF HIM WHO (SENT) ME. When are you ever going to get it brother (GOD) was literally (IN) Jesus speaking through Him (HIS) words. That does not make Jesus a GOD or GOD'S Word, but a spokesman of GOD, Who spoke to us God the Fathers words. Can't you see that. If John wanted to say Jesus He would have just written it there. Wake up brother. peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Unfortunately for you Gene, we have other scriptures that clearly show it was indeed the same person, albeit in a different form as we know that he existed with God's nature and not in the flesh.Try to see who the following scriptures are talking about. You might also secretly notice that they are in complete agreement with many other scriptures that show that Jesus had glory with God before the world began and that he was with God in the beginning and came in the flesh.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Now read the following 2 scriptures again, but instead of seeing them through your pre-defined beliefs, see them in the light of the above 4 scriptures written by John and Paul.
1 John 1:1-2
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was theos.I wonder if you can be completely honest with yourself Gene and see that indeed Jesus existed as a man, but also existed with the Father in glory and that rightly so, may God glory through Jesus Christ before all ages, now and forever.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2010,03:30) Why “theos” instead of God like the scriptures say? It seems you are trying to obscure the meaning.
I am simply pointing out that this is what the text says.It doesn't say either of the following:
the Word was THE God.
or
the Word was A god.No, it says the Word was god. There is no definite or indefinite article. It is meant as qualitative and is not identifying the Word as God himself or as another god.
It is you and the JWs that decide to render John 1:1 as having a definite or indefinite article.
Trinitarians make the dishonest claim that John is trying to tell us WHO Jesus is in John 1:1c. Yet it is not referring to identity (“who”) but nature (“what”).
You are not able to comprehend this because your mind is stuck with God or god and that god is always bad because it is obviously speaking of another God. But you have completely failed to see that the word theos can be used qualitatively, i.e., without any kind of article.
Theos is not the only word that can be used qualitatively. So can Devil, as devil and Adam as adam.
So just as Jesus said to his disciples “one of you is devil”, understanding that to mean one is like the Devil or has the nature of the Devil, and by reason of that, knowing that he wasn't saying “one of you is the Devil”, so it is that theos and adam can be used in the same way.
Another example is Eve. She is adam, but she is not Adam. In other words she is mankind (adam) but she is not (Adam) the first man.
All this escapes you I know. But I know that others can grasp such things as they are not difficult for those who are not slaves to bias and man-made doctrines.
Jesus said, “the truth shall set you free”. I doubt that you really want to be free WJ. I think you want to stay bound up in your own doctrine and understanding. Perhaps you feel safer when you have control of the truth, rather than truth being the master?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,12:23) Hi MB,
So he was exactly the same as you despite these external differences?
Are you not a son of Adam?
Nick,So he was “exactly the same” except for “differences”.
What?
mike
Hi MB,
So because he lived 930 years he was a different breed?
Like Methuselah etc?No he was exactly like you and God allowed him to live more than our allotted span.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2010,11:54) In the mean time, can anyone help me with a scripture that says God made something “out of nothing”? It seems I've read it, but can't place my finger on it. mike
Not sure if there is a such scripture. I thought I read something like that once too, but even Google doesn't bring anything up.We do know this though:
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
So there was something, there was Jesus as the Word of God.
Now we need to understand where the Word came from and I think that most would assume God.T8,
Your wrote:
Quote When you read them together it is obvious that the Word that was manifest is Jesus and that Word was WITH God. He that was from the beginning was WITH the Father and was manifest to the apostles.
At least your first sentence is correct if you replace “is” with “in” as I assure you God’s word is manifest in Jesus as he was tempted just as we are but without sin.
John also reported Jesus voicing the same idea when he taught the same thing when he stated “the Father is in me”, John 14:11.
So I agree with you that God’s word was with God and is and has been manifest in God from the beginning but that certainly does not imply that Jesus was.
I would not say the Jesus is literally God’s Word but I would agree the figuratively he is. He is figuratively because God’s word is manifest in him.
Scripture does literally state that Jesus is a human being. I have not found anywhere where it states that he is anything but a human being. To be clear his spirit is a spirit and thus not a human being and it clearly pre-existed his creation in Mary’s reproductive system. It is plausible that his soul pre-existed his conception as there is a tenet of preexistent human souls in the Seventh heaven where God makes his throne and I see no just reason to quibble over that particular tenet at this time.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi Kerwin.
Understanding that the Word was with God in the beginning and that in the flesh, the Word of God was Jesus, and in Heaven Jesus is called or wears the label 'Word of God' in his heavenly form, then coupled with other verses such as what follows, I think you have to agree that it appears that it is talking about Jesus being there in the beginning. Sure we know that he might not have been called Jesus and he had a different body or nature, but it was him in some form, nevertheless.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.T8,
I will point out that you are making assumptions about a number of the scriptures you choose to quote.
In Colossians 1:17 you assume that it is speaking of the old creation. What evidence do you actually have to back that up especially as Scripture declares Jesus is the mediator of the new creation?
In John 17:5 you assume that just because God gave glory to Jesus that Jesus existed at that time. You are speaking of God who knows all things and can give glory to a person because beforehand that person will exist.
I have not got the time to cover the other ones but I will mention that appearances can be deceptive and sometimes a writer or speaker uses vague words because they are certain their hearers know what they are speaking of. This may be true of those who the various books of the New Testament were addressed to but not necessary true of us.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Kerwin……….Good point, God gave glory to Cyrus before he was ever born , that also provers your point on preexisting (glory) without the person even existing. God also said he knew Jeremiah before he was born while still in his mothers womb. Issac was another He was the foreordained for Gods Glory through Abraham and Sarah. The problem is as you say they (preexistences) ASSUME things that are not specifically stated in the text and then proceed to force the text to say what they want it to say. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
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