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Other then seeing it as very poor scholarship, I really do not care if Irene, Mike, Ja or others believe in the preexisitance of Christ, as long as they do not claim he had some power or knowledge, in his life on Earth, from that prior life, that could impact the choices Christ made. The choices Christ made developed his character and perfected him in the same manner that we are to be developed and perfected. We are to follow him. We cannot do that (in the same way) if the choices he made were due so some knowledge that we do not have. From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOLQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2010,05:33) Mike……….What about Adam and Eve whose was there Father? peace and love……………………..gene
Well Gene,I would say that they too were different from all of us, right?
How does that answer that Jesus also was?
Okay Gene, is it safe to say that Adam, Eve, and Jesus were at least in some way different than the rest of mankind?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,05:42) From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOL
Hi Martian,He MUST be exactly like us? Again WHY? For what reason MUST Jesus be exactly like us for us to follow and imitate him? Who was his earthly father Martian? Doesn't that imply that he was NOT exactly like us right from conception?
You said:
Quote they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life.
Again, WHY? Why do we need to know about Jesus memories? Is it relevant? If it was, God would have let us know.How do you imagine the dead will be raised? Will their minds just be a big blank like, “What's going on here?”, or will they have their memories restored so they can have that, “Oh crap! I knew I shouldn't have become an atheist!” moment?
Where are those memories in the meantime?I think instead of us having to answer your asinine “What if” questions, you should have to answer to plain scriptures that clearly say Jesus pre-existed his flesh.
mike
Mike,
My point is that you are disagreeing with what God states if you believe that a human being cannot stop sinning. God led me to another scripture that clearly states that human beings have a choice and are not servants of sin if they have entered the new covenant. That scripture is 1 Corinthians 10:13.
The way you chose to word your point though has me somewhat confused because your wording does not seem to actually support your implied objection. The confusion may stem from by lack of understanding of your objection and if this is so please let me know.
I do agree that in the past that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23. I am applying the word “past” loosely as I am speaking of before one reaches full maturity in the Anointed.
My concern for others in relation to this issue stems from the fact that Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed what God said. As God made a promise to Abraham he also made a promise to anyone who hungers and thirst for righteousness. He promised them that under the new covenant they would stop sinning even though they are human. When we stop sinning we are fully mature in Jesus just as Scripture declares, Ephesians 4:13.
I believe that you are forgetting that God can stop us from sinning even though we are human because all things are possible with God, Luke 18:26-27. I say this that you will believe that God can and will stop you from sinning if you obey all of Jesus' teachings. I admit that it may well take time as it also takes time to mature from an infant to an adult.
In the meantime the fact that you believe God and so obey all of Jesus' teachings will mean God will credit you as if you had already obtained the promise of righteousness because God does as he promises. This is just like Abraham, who was credited with righteousness because he believed God.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2010,08:18) My point is that you are disagreeing with what God states if you believe that a human being cannot stop sinning.
Hi Kerwin,That is EXACTLY my point. We are born into sin, period. And “AT SOME POINT UNDER THE NEW COVENANT” that may not be the case.
But you imply that you or someone you know is completely without sin, and that's just unbelievable to me.
Are you without sin Kerwin? I know of only one man who is sinless. Are you Jesus?
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2010,07:56) Hi MB,
Is it ok to rely on IMPLICATIONS?
Are they not PERSONAL INTERPRETATIONS? [2Peter1]
Hi Nick,You tell me. You do it every single time you interpret what any particular scripture is saying. It is YOUR intepretation that forms your scriptural beliefs. Do you agree? We have been through this, I think, 4 times now. Must I keep answering your same question?
mike
Gene,
It sounds like you are agreeing with me though what you stated is wordy. I agree with you that when God promised that we would stop sinning if we obeyed all that Jesus taught that we would stop sinning because he crated in us a new righteous character and a pure heart that is righteous as he is righteous. That is God’s gift to man under the new covenant that Jesus sealed by his death on the cross. In order to receive that grace one must like Abraham believe what God states is true and God states we will stop sinning if we truly believe Jesus is the Anointed and so show our belief by what we do.
Some may argue that even that belief comes from God as God is the one is the one who created our soul which either hungers and thirst for righteousness or loves wickedness. I do not disagree but urge each and every person to believe as the desires of their soul will be revealed by their choice.
I do wish to say this in closing and that is that as God changes your spirit you will choose to resist temptation even more each day and even come to crave even more each day a time when you no longer sin. The spirit of righteousness will drive you to do this and more as you seek to be righteous as God is righteous.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Mike,
I am not yet fully mature in the Anointed.
On the other hand I choose to believe God when he states that one will become fully mature in Jesus and thus I know it can and has happened for some. That is faith.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2010,08:39) Mike, I am not yet fully mature in the Anointed.
On the other hand I choose to believe God when he states that one will become fully mature in Jesus and thus I know it can and has happened for some. That is faith.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
So then you can't with any factuality (did I just make that word up?) say you know that any man is sinless except Jesus?Why are we arguing then?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (martian @ July 25 2010,05:42) Other then seeing it as very poor scholarship, I really do not care if Irene, Mike, Ja or others believe in the preexisitance of Christ, as long as they do not claim he had some power or knowledge, in his life on Earth, from that prior life, that could impact the choices Christ made. The choices Christ made developed his character and perfected him in the same manner that we are to be developed and perfected. We are to follow him. We cannot do that (in the same way) if the choices he made were due so some knowledge that we do not have. From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOL
So Jesus did not sin even though He was a man and did not know where He came from? Wow, that is amazing. Come on, He could have never said what He did in John 17:5. He knew where He came from…….If He would not be the Son of God, He would have sinned. If He would not have known where He came from, He would have sinned, just like all other Humans have. But because He was the Son of God and knew where He came from, we can now live forever….Don't you get it, God had to send someone like that, all have fallen short of the glory of God. And Jesus too would have sinned, if He was just a mere man…..And I am forever thankful to God our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. There is no Scripture that says that Jesus has to be like us….And He was not….. IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2010,07:26) Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,05:42) From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOL
Hi Martian,He MUST be exactly like us? Again WHY? For what reason MUST Jesus be exactly like us for us to follow and imitate him? Who was his earthly father Martian? Doesn't that imply that he was NOT exactly like us right from conception?
You said:
Quote they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life.
Again, WHY? Why do we need to know about Jesus memories? Is it relevant? If it was, God would have let us know.How do you imagine the dead will be raised? Will their minds just be a big blank like, “What's going on here?”, or will they have their memories restored so they can have that, “Oh crap! I knew I shouldn't have become an atheist!” moment?
Where are those memories in the meantime?I think instead of us having to answer your asinine “What if” questions, you should have to answer to plain scriptures that clearly say Jesus pre-existed his flesh.
mike
Do your memories and experiences impact the decisions that you make?
Are you positively or negatively influenced by them?
If you lived in heaven, even for a brief time and carried those memories into a life on Earth, would those memories and experiences impact or influence the decisions you make to get back there? Of course they would.
If another is born to earth that does not have those memories and experiences or their influence would their decisions have to be different and harder then those of the first.
The second would not be able to make decisions like the first because he does not have the same influences. He could not look at the first to ascertain on what basis he made his decisions because they are not at the same influence level. The two would be making decisions based on different criteria. That would invalidate, in part, Christ as our example. Since you cannot ascertain what portion of christ walk was influenced all of Christ example is in doubt.Do you know in what way physicly Mary was impregnated or with what?
If God created a human sperm to make her pregnant then the end result would be human with no extra frills. Since there are literally hundreds of scriptures that say Christ was a man I know at least the end result is human.
I am not talking about those who have departed. We are discussing christ on this Earth. You are implying that Christ had memories/knowledge of a prior life while on this earth. We are not talking about his memories after his death. As stated above, those memories/'knowledge would have a huge impact on the way he overcame. His overcoming could not be used as an example for us.None of my questions are “what if”. My queries are a direct result of the doctrine/conclusion you make. What you really want me to do is stop questioning your pet doctrine that is based on YOUR opinion of what the scripture means. I have posted my conclusions and said how I came to them. You have posted your conclusions and stopped there.
This is what I do. Did you do anything like this?
I came to these conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
Quote (Arnold @ July 25 2010,09:14) Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,05:42) Other then seeing it as very poor scholarship, I really do not care if Irene, Mike, Ja or others believe in the preexisitance of Christ, as long as they do not claim he had some power or knowledge, in his life on Earth, from that prior life, that could impact the choices Christ made. The choices Christ made developed his character and perfected him in the same manner that we are to be developed and perfected. We are to follow him. We cannot do that (in the same way) if the choices he made were due so some knowledge that we do not have. From the moment of his conception to the moment of his death, he must be exactly like us.
Of course even if a preexister agrees with Christ being like us while on Earth, they still have to come up with some non-scriptural mystical theories as to what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ in the prior life. Those answers can be entertaining like Oh they were stored in some big memory back. LOL
So Jesus did not sin even though He was a man and did not know where He came from? Wow, that is amazing. Come on, He could have never said what He did in John 17:5. He knew where He came from…….If He would not be the Son of God, He would have sinned. If He would not have known where He came from, He would have sinned, just like all other Humans have. But because He was the Son of God and knew where He came from, we can now live forever….Don't you get it, God had to send someone like that, all have fallen short of the glory of God. And Jesus too would have sinned, if He was just a mere man…..And I am forever thankful to God our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. There is no Scripture that says that Jesus has to be like us….And He was not….. Irene
Irene,
In order to come to your conclusions did you do anything like this?
I came to my conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
As I stated in the Philipians 2 thread I have never seen you get past step one. You voice an opinion/hypothesis and never back up that statement with good solid bible study. You do this over and over again. The same scriptures over and over again. And never once (that I can recall) backed up your opinion with Good study. I would like to assume it is a lack of education on how to study scripture, however I fear it is just stuborness and indoctrination. This has been the crux of my frustration with your posts and you in particular, and though I have at times reacted badly and personally to you, my points on proper study still stand.Mike and Irene,
Show me in what way my criteria that I posted to you are dishonest and if you cannot then show me where my conclusions fail any one of these tests.Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2010,08:36) Gene, It sounds like you are agreeing with me though what you stated is wordy. I agree with you that when God promised that we would stop sinning if we obeyed all that Jesus taught that we would stop sinning because he crated in us a new righteous character and a pure heart that is righteous as he is righteous. That is God’s gift to man under the new covenant that Jesus sealed by his death on the cross. In order to receive that grace one must like Abraham believe what God states is true and God states we will stop sinning if we truly believe Jesus is the Anointed and so show our belief by what we do.
Some may argue that even that belief comes from God as God is the one is the one who created our soul which either hungers and thirst for righteousness or loves wickedness. I do not disagree but urge each and every person to believe as the desires of their soul will be revealed by their choice.
I do wish to say this in closing and that is that as God changes your spirit you will choose to resist temptation even more each day and even come to crave even more each day a time when you no longer sin. The spirit of righteousness will drive you to do this and more as you seek to be righteous as God is righteous.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Kerwin………Well said brother, i also believe GOD Works (N) us Both to Will and do of His good pleasure. And certainly if GOD is in us we would think as He does and His spirit would produce thoses fruits in our lives. IMOpeace and love to you and your………………….gene
Mike.
I agree that my belief is based on faith but with God faith is as important or perhaps even more important than “fact” for the righteous live by faith. I am urging you to believe what we have been taught is impossible for all things are possible through God.
You fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2010,08:53) Hi MB,
You are determined to justify your dogma.
Is that wise?
Hi Nick,Just because YOU don't want to believe the many scriptures that speak of Jesus' pre-existence is no reason to call my beliefs that actually are in line with scripture, dogma.
Sitting on the sidelines judging others while shielding your views on the matter is cowardly. Post how YOU believe on the issue and why, so we can have the chance to either agree with you or refute what you say.
mike
Hi Martian,
You said:
Quote If another is born to earth that does not have those memories and experiences or their influence would their decisions have to be different and harder then those of the first.
Yes, harder. Fortunately for us, the bar is set much lower. We don't have to be sinless, because Jesus was.You've said in two threads now:
Quote This is what I do. Did you do anything like this?
I came to these conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)If you did nothing like this what did you do and why?
Yes Martian. I come armed with more than just my interpretation of scripture in most cases. And though I applaud your deep research, you must be a little more careful with it, I think. I have already refuted your understanding of “bara” and “morphe”.
The rest of your post I'm responding to is just more of the same: “I WANT Jesus to have been the exact same as me, therefore I will believe anything written that agrees with me. And if scipture is NOT one of those things, I will ignore it or try to change what the context means, or what the words meant back then until I “morphe” it into something that makes me feel like I can do anything Jesus did.”
Let's say the pastor at my church went on missionary trips since he was 8 years old. Let's say he knew the scriptures by heart start to finish. Let's say he spoke fluent Hebrew and Koine Greek.
Can I still let him be an example to me even though I've done none of those things? Can I learn from him even though he has memories or info that I don't?
Martian, answer just two questions: Do YOU have a human father? Did Jesus? Enough said……..Jesus was different from you.
mike
Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,14:27) Mike and Irene,
Show me in what way my criteria that I posted to you are dishonest and if you cannot then show me where my conclusions fail any one of these tests.
Maybe not “dishonest”, but faulty.Do you still think the word “bara” only refers to “fill up” or “fatten”? Or do you agree now, with the info I posted, that it does actually refer to “creation”?
And as far as your understanding of “morphe”, I'll wait for your reply in the other thread.
mike
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