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Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2010,17:12) Gene, You need to consider the context of a scripture when you interpret it. In this case Jesus was addressing the disciples were giving into the physical limits of their bodies despirit their desire to do as Jesus asked them. It is God who placed limits on the human body and being stopped by those limits is not a sin. Giving into temptation is not being stopped by the limits of the human body as God does not set such a limit then command us to exceed it knowing he has set us up for failure.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Kerwin………….Did I also fail to understand what I quoted about what Paul said. How about this then , GOD Said, not me or Jesus or Paul , “For God looked for (ONE) righteous man and FOUND (NONE) NO NOT EVEN (ONE), But you say except<
????. Interesting how we can percieve things so differently, at times. Jesus said “WHY CALL ME GOOD THERE IS (ONLY) ONE THAT IS GOOD, AND THAT IS GOD, But you say and some others say, ????? are all good and righteous.Scriptures say Abraham was (CONSIDERED OR RECKONED AS ) RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF HIS (FAITH) but you say no because of his Works alone , but fail to see His FAITH in GOD is what produced those WORKS . The word considered OR RECKONED DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS RIGHTEOUS, now does it. WE are to seek GOD'S righteousness (NOT) OUR righteousness. IMO and Jesus' also. “seek you the kingdom of GOD and (HIS) righteousness. is what i was told by my brother AND Lord Jesus.
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 23 2010,16:22) To All…………..The spirit is willing but the Flesh is weak , “FOR THE GOOD THAT (I) WOULD DO (i) DON'T DO , BUT THE EVIL (i) WOULD NOT DO THAT (I) DO, O WRETCHED MAN THAT (I) AM WHO CAN DELVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH? (I) THANK GO THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. “THEREFORE IT IS NO LONGER (I) WHO DO IT BUT SIN THAT DWELLS IN MY BODY'. And again “THEREFORE IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN WE ARE LIAR AND ABIDE NOT IN THE TRUTH”. Truth is we all are not yet perfected and we still sin at times but we should not be practicing sin and should be overcoming sin more and more as we grow and mature in the faith. We have a way to be forgiven by God we simply have to admit our sins to him and He is faithful to forgive us our sins (AND) to cleanse us from all unrighteousness , we are told. peace and love to you all…………………………gene
What you said holds the key although I am not sure that you are using it properly.
You say-
Truth is we all are not yet perfected and we still sin at times but we should not be practicing sin and should be overcoming sin more and more as we grow and mature in the faithreply-
The fact that we have the attitude to want to overcome sin is a character trait that allows us to walk sinless and perfect in God's eyes. We are not mature yet but we can be perfect in character and attitude.Mike ,
Kerwin brought up more points and scriptures. The entire chapter of Ephesians 4 is a detailed description of the ways we are to become like Christ. It is very much all encompasing. I see nothing in it that says just part of this and part of that.
Eph 5:1 says that we are to be imitators of God. How do we do that? What does that look like? Do we have an example of humanity doing that in the same manner that we can do that?
Hello? Jesus! He did it with no advantage over the way we can do it.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 22 2010,14:13) Quote (martian @ July 22 2010,09:18) There are two primary words to be looked at in this scripture. “Firstborn” and “Creation”.
Hi Martian,Whenever scripture speaks of an “appointed” firstborn, we clearly know who was the “real” firstborn, and in most cases we know why that “real” firstborn lost his rights and a different one was “appointed”.
Adam was NEVER the firstborn of every creature. All of the creatures of the air, land and sea existed before him. Nor are we told he lost any “firstborn” rights that Jesus ended up receiving. And while Jesus is appointed to many things, he is NEVER said to be “appointed” to the position of “firstborn of every creature” or “the beginning of the creation of God”.
About creation:
You are right that it is the Hebrew word “bara”. But you neglect to point out that the Hebrews used many forms of the same word to mean different things. For example, bara can mean different things depending on the form of the word that was used:1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
You can see the Qal form really means to create, while the Hiphil form means to “fatten”. It is the Qal form that is used in Genesis and the Hiphil form in 1 Samuel.
You can verify this through the NETBible site. Plus, we can't really imagine that God “fattened” or “filled” man in His image, can we?
I agree with JA that your post is a 10 course meal. Break it down and I'll happily discuss it with you. If you are worried about fragments getting lost in the shuffle, we can put it in a debate thread where there will be no interuptions.
It's up to you. I don't mind discussing it here and there on this thread either.
mike
Mike,
I did more research on the subject of Bara (Heb)
You indicated that the word in 1 Sam is not bara. You are wrong. Bara in this verse is simply hiphil (cuasative active) form of bara. It does not change the meaning of the verb.
The second word in the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 is the verb “bara”. (strong’s 1254) This word is always translated as “create” in this verse and is usually theologically understood to mean “to make out of nothing”. If we compare Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 2:7 we will see that this is not possible. In Genesis 2:7 the Bible states that God “made” the man from the ground but in Genesis 1:26 it states that God “created” man. Therefore, the Hebrew word “bar” does not mean “to create out of nothing”. This very same Hebrew word is used in 1 Samuel 2:29 but is translated as “fattening”. The Hebrews language was very concrete oriented meaning its vocabulary is related to something that can be sense by the five senses. Words such as “believe”, “trust” and “create” are all abstract words that are foreign concepts to the Ancient Hebrews. In the Samuel passage we see the original meaning of the verb “bara” which is to be “fat”.
The first three Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1; “bereshiyt bara elohiym” is best translated as “in a beginning God fattened….”. What does it mean to “fatten” the heavens and the earth. The idea of fattening something is to fill it up. Genesis chapter one is about “filling” up the heavens and the earth (with the sun, moon, stars, birds, fish, animals and plants) not its creation.1Sa 2:29
Wherefore kick 1163 ye at my sacrifice 2077 and at mine offering 4503, which I have commanded 6680 [in my] habitation 4583; and honourest 3513 thy sons 1121 above me, to make yourselves fat 1254 with the chiefest 7225 of all the offerings 4503 of Israel 3478 my people 5971?Hebrew verb tenses are related to action (perfect – completed action and imperfect – incomplete action) whereas English verb tenses are related to time (past, present and future). When the English translation has past tense it is usually the perfect tense in the Hebrew since it is completed action. The imperfect tense can be translated as present or future and can cause some problems when translating the Hebrew imperfect tense. The reality is that the Hebrew is not writing about time (past, present or future) as in their mind even something completed can be in the future. For example I can say “my father taught me about life” which is written in the past tense. While my father taught me many years ago, we see this as past tense and in the Hebrew mind it is a completed action. But, in the Hebrew mind this completed action exists in the past, present and future.I still learn from my father today by remembering all that he taught me and I will continue to learn from him even after he is dead.
Hebrew verbs have seven different forms – qal (simple active), niphal (simple passive), hiphil (cuasative active), hophal (causative passive), hitpa'el (simple reflexive), piel (intensive active) and pual (intensive passive). Each form slightly changes the application of the verb as will be demonstrated with the verb “to cut” in the third person, masculine. The qal form is simply “he cut”. The niphal form would be “he was cut”. The hiphil form would be “he made cut”. The hophal is “he was made cut”. The piel is “he slashed”. The pual is “he was slashed”. A good Lexicon or dictionary such as Benjamin Davidson's Analytical Lexicon is very helpful in identifying these different forms in Hebrew verbs. A dictionary such as Strong's can be a little misleading. For example the verb ra'ah (Strong's number 7200) states that this word can mean “see” or “appear” but this is a little misleading. The word ra'ah means “to see” but when used in the niphal form it would be “was seen” which means “to appear”. Thayer's dictionary is a little more helpful as it provides the different meanings based on the form of the verb.
Most of this material courtesy of The Ancient Hebrew Research Center.
Mike-
First born meaning first created is an old JW deception. There is a Greek word for “first created” and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians. He did not use it here. The Greek for “firstborn” is proto with tikto which would give us “firstborn” and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for “first created” would be proto with ktizo and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word “firstborn” is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean “pre-eminence.” In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, “I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him…I also shall make him My first-born” (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
•Gen. 41:51-52, “And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction” (NASB)
•Jer. 31:9, “…for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB).”
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created as some say it means here. “Firstborn” can mean the first born person in a family and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. John 1:114 He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
Col 1
(In verse 16 I have change the word “by” in the text to “in” because that is the Greek text.15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.Now verse by verse –
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
proto with tikto which gives us “firstborn” not “first created” which would be proto with ktizo
16For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
In and through Christ all things were fattened or filled up and completed. This points to his pre-eminence.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Does the “before” mean a time frame or does it mean first in order of importance? Again this points to his pre-eminence in that he is the the most important thing in creation.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
He is the head of the church and is the first one to be born from the dead so that he could be pre-eminent in everything.
Jesus is the pre-eminent one of all creation because in and through him all things were filled up and completed. He was the first one birthed from the dead so that he would be pre-eminent in EVERYTHING.
The entire context is about Christ pre-eminence and not his original chronological birthMike
Is there anything in the context of Col 1 that would indicate a meaning of filling up for creation?
Yep!15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
He is the pre-eminent one of all the filling or fattening. How do I know this? Because it was God’s good pleasure to fill him up?
19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness (complete filling) to dwell in Him,Quote (martian @ July 24 2010,06:29) Mike one more question.
Why is Christ called the second Adam?
I will answer that for Mike. Christ is the second Adam, He paid the ransom for our Sins and Adams sin. Where Adam failed Christ succeeded, by overcoming Sin. IreneQuote (martian @ July 24 2010,04:43) Mike-
First born meaning first created is an old JW deception. There is a Greek word for “first created” and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians. He did not use it here. The Greek for “firstborn” is proto with tikto which would give us “firstborn” and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for “first created” would be proto with ktizo and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word “firstborn” is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean “pre-eminence.” In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, “I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him…I also shall make him My first-born” (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
•Gen. 41:51-52, “And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction” (NASB)
•Jer. 31:9, “…for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB).”
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created as some say it means here. “Firstborn” can mean the first born person in a family and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. John 1:114 He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
Col 1
(In verse 16 I have change the word “by” in the text to “in” because that is the Greek text.15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.Now verse by verse –
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
proto with tikto which gives us “firstborn” not “first created” which would be proto with ktizo
16For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
In and through Christ all things were fattened or filled up and completed. This points to his pre-eminence.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Does the “before” mean a time frame or does it mean first in order of importance? Again this points to his pre-eminence in that he is the the most important thing in creation.
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
He is the head of the church and is the first one to be born from the dead so that he could be pre-eminent in everything.
Jesus is the pre-eminent one of all creation because in and through him all things were filled up and completed. He was the first one birthed from the dead so that he would be pre-eminent in EVERYTHING.
The entire context is about Christ pre-eminence and not his original chronological birth
And what does Rev. 3:14 mean, here it says He is the beginning of all creation…….So now you will have to see what beginning is, in Greek. Nevertheless, firstborn even in Greek means firstborn, in German it means der erste Junge, so why is it so important to you to say it in Greek?? We are in America and we speak English…… firstborn is still firstborn, even if there are other children being born of a woman…… so it says firstborn in Greek….if I understand you right….. preeminence if you look it up in the Dictionary is first in all. And in Co.1:18 it says that. Christ was first to be born and first to be resurrected…. first in all….so He may have preeminence…..It all goes together with the rest of Scriptures. John 1:1, 6:38-40 and Rev. 19:13 and verse 16.
Christ will come again as ” The Word of God” as “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS”
If Christ says that He was before Abraham, I believe Him. If Christ says that He came down from Heaven I believe Him….. Now no personal attack…..Also if Jesus created all which it says in John 1, then He would have to be the first with Jehovah God……..One more thing I do not believe that He was an Angel, like the J.W. do. You give us examples of others in the Bible that are the firstborn, but do they also have preeminence? No That is why Jesus is before all. And what about John 17:5 Here Jesus is asking His Father to give Him His glory back, which He had before the world began……And we know that He is a Spirit Being now. And that is what He was before the world was……again it goes with all……….Irene……Cheers.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,15:02) Hi Irene,
Did the Spirit teach through Jesus?
Did the Spirit teach through Jesus?
Why do you not believe the Spirit?
Nick! I believe God's Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is what shows me what is of God…. Again, why don't you believe like t8 does??? He has given us good Scriptures in His article….Should I bring it up?? I have before……..IreneThis is rather long, but good….thank you t8
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
——————————————————————————–
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.&
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in ve
ry nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > WomanIf God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
So from this verse we can see the following points.
Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his si
de and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.
Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?
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Amnesia rules this forum…
How many times has this been written and isn't it obvious anyway.
Adam is the 'firstborn by birth' over Mankind, born of the Holy Spirit, created Sinless. A true Son of God.
Jesus is the 'firstborn by rank' over mankind, born sinless through the Holy Spirit, a true Son of God.
The first Adam, the 'first-born by birth' sinned, as is illustrated many times over in Scriptures: Adam, Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Joseph's brothers, Saul ('Firstborn' King), how many more? How many times must this be illustrated?
It is written in the Scriptures,'He taketh away the first in order to establish the second'
I asked many times before: Was Adam, should he have not sinned, to have been taken up in Spirit to Heaven as God's Son, after all, Jesus came down to earth and 'Took the Place of Adam'…took the place of what was to have been Adam's inheritence.
If so, then what was 'spirit Jesus'' role in heaven had Adam not sinned. Sorry, this is another thread topic. Who wants to start it?
It appears to me that many in this forum are forcing themselves to deliberately misunderstand Scripture only so that it fits into their idea of it, not that the truth of Scripture shapes their thinking.
How can water shape the vessel that contains it?
No wiseguy responses please.
Quote (JustAskin @ July 24 2010,10:12) Amnesia rules this forum… How many times has this been written and isn't it obvious anyway.
Adam is the 'firstborn by birth' over Mankind, born of the Holy Spirit, created Sinless. A true Son of God.
Jesus is the 'firstborn by rank' over mankind, born sinless through the Holy Spirit, a true Son of God.
The first Adam, the 'first-born by birth' sinned, as is illustrated many times over in Scriptures: Adam, Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Joseph's brothers, Saul ('Firstborn' King), how many more? How many times must this be illustrated?
It is written in the Scriptures,'He taketh away the first in order to establish the second'
I asked many times before: Was Adam, should he have not sinned, to have been taken up in Spirit to Heaven as God's Son, after all, Jesus came down to earth and 'Took the Place of Adam'…took the place of what was to have been Adam's inheritence.
If so, then what was 'spirit Jesus'' role in heaven had Adam not sinned. Sorry, this is another thread topic. Who wants to start it?
Quote How many times has this been written and isn't it obvious anyway. Adam is the 'firstborn by birth' over Mankind, born of the Holy Spirit, created Sinless. A true Son of God.
Jesus is the 'firstborn by rank' over mankind, born sinless through the Holy Spirit, a true Son of God.
The first Adam, the 'first-born by birth' sinned, as is illustrated many times over in Scriptures: Adam, Cain, Ishmael, Esau, Joseph's brothers, Saul ('Firstborn' King), how many more? How many times must this be illustrated?
It is written in the Scriptures,'He taketh away the first in order to establish the second'
EXactly right on this part.
Martian,
Do you know the rules of quotations?
When you cut out something that someone says in a quote you replace it with ellipsis, three dots (…).
Or you can replace a word or sentence with another using square brackets ([ replacement word or sentence]) but it must fit exactly in context or clarify in context.Edj used to willynilly cut/add to quotes which made post say other than what the poster originally said. Ok, not, but, if you then requote that quote new readers will think the illegal quote is true.
I've suggested that quotes should automatically or manually have a reference link back to the origin. This should be electronically, programmatically, simple.T8, wHaDDAyAtHINK?
But, Martian, good of you to agree with the parts, at least, that you did.
Martain,
So a false doctrine or a false teaching would be taking God's name in vain but using his name as an exclamation is not.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Gene,
My last post of to you was about the difference between sin and being stopped by the limits God imposes on you as a human and as yourself. You then bring up the issue of righteousness and I certainly agree that anyone who has not entered the new covenant is a servant to sin and so sins. Paul was quoting scripture that was speaking about those not under the new covenant. At the time Jesus walked this earth, before his crucifixion, only he could be said to be under the new covenant since he was laying out its precepts and providing an example for us to follow.
Now you do mention an interesting point as Jesus did declare that no one but God is good. We know that Jesus did not sin even though he was tempted by evil even as we are. We also know that God does not do evil nor is he tempted by evil. Knowing these two things then it would seem obvious that he was stating he was not Good because he was tempted by evil. So I do agree that even those under the new covenant are tempted by evil and thus cannot be called Good as God is Good. I would go on to state with confidence that all goodness comes from God.
I assure you when the Son sets you free from serving sin then you are free indeed and so do not sin. Believe that he can and will do it for you by the power of God if you obey all his teachings. If you believe then God will do the works. That is his grace to those that believe.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,14:40) Hi MB,
Who was the father of Adam?
Lk3.38Are you like Adam?
Hi Nick,Really? That's weak. If fact, I almost posted “who else” BESIDE ADAM just for the wise guys.
Did you not know what I meant? Who else BESIDES ADAM AND JESUS did NOT have a human father?
Don't you think that set Jesus apart as different from all of us EXCEPT ADAM?
mike
Quote (martian @ July 23 2010,15:52) 1.So oh wise one, in what ways can we be like Christ and which ways not? Can you prove your answer scripturally? Can you show me the guide in scripture?
Hi Martian,YOU BETCHA! Come on over to the Phil 2 thread and pipe in.
mike
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