Preexistence

[Arnold]

Gene, You like Martains post, yet He has torn me down up side out, is tht what You call being nice? Give me a break. Also why do you think He left? Think about that too……Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….Lets just deal with (ONE) point at a time, You said He was special because He knew where he came from right?And you said How could a 12 year old boy do that. Well so did Cyrus the King, So did Jeremiah the Prophet. So did John the Baptist. That knowledge does make anyone any better or worse then anyone else. A prince becomes a King does that make him any better then anyone else of course not. You can't use this to justify the moving of Jesus away from our exact identity as a human being.

WE need to at least agree on this point before moving on to another, so can you agree with this? Sis.

peace and love to you and Georg…………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….There is no way i mean you or Georg any disrespect , i both love and care about you both very much, and agree with you and Georg on some subjects, like Trinitarian and others , but I just do not believe in the Preexistence of Jesus as a Preexisting Being of some kind before his berth. Martian get frustrated at times as you and i and all do, but it should not be about Us or our personal feelings , but about the truth of God's Words and what they actually are saying. Look none of us have (ALL) the truth and i think GOD planned it this way so (EVERY) MOUTH will be closed in the end. But we still can love one another and press on to the high calling of God. I know it is Hard to sore with Eagles when your stuck with Turkeys,

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene

[JustAskin]

Kerwin,

What does Scriptures say concerning being saved? Does it not say that you must believe that Jesus has 'come in the flesh'?

It might just come down to semantics but to me, 'to come' means 'arriving from some other place'.

It does not mean 'Coming into existenence'.

Which:
To be saved one must believe that Jesus came into existence in the flesh as man?
Or:
To be saved one must believe that Jesus, as Spirit, came from Heaven and was born, in the flesh, as man.

If the first then align it with Jesus' claim to be 'going back to where he once was' and having seen the Father['s face] and also desiring to have glory he had with the Father before time.

If the latter, then there is perfect alignment.
Not only that but there is a dual link with Abraham sacrificing his most beloved Son and Sacrifice of Jesus, God's most beloved Son.

One from flesh, the other from the Spirit. In the same way that Scripture says, 'Sin came from fleshly man, Salvation from sin from Spiritual man'

Jesus, born in the flesh, yes, was man in everyway…except he was sinless, not being born from the flesh of a human father but by the Holy Spirit. The importance of this is not that Jesus should be EXACTLY like us but that Jesus should atone for the sins of Adam and show us the way back FROM sin through him.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 22 2010,14:13)

Quote (martian @ July 22 2010,09:18) There are two primary words to be looked at in this scripture. “Firstborn” and “Creation”. Hi Martian, Whenever scripture speaks of an “appointed” firstborn, we clearly know who was the “real” firstborn, and in most cases we know why that “real” firstborn lost his rights and a different one was “appointed”. Adam was NEVER the firstborn of every creature.  All of the creatures of the air, land and sea existed before him.  Nor are we told he lost any “firstborn” rights that Jesus ended up receiving.  And while Jesus is appointed to many things, he is NEVER said to be “appointed” to the position of “firstborn of every creature” or “the beginning of the creation of God”. About creation: You are right that it is the Hebrew word “bara”.  But you neglect to point out that the Hebrews used many forms of the same word to mean different things.  For example, bara can mean different things depending on the form of the word that was used: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat You can see the Qal form really means to create, while the Hiphil form means to “fatten”.  It is the Qal form that is used in Genesis and the Hiphil form in 1 Samuel. You can verify this through the NETBible site.  Plus, we can't really imagine that God “fattened” or “filled” man in His image, can we? I agree with JA that your post is a 10 course meal.  Break it down and I'll happily discuss it with you.  If you are worried about fragments getting lost in the shuffle, we can put it in a debate thread where there will be no interuptions. It's up to you.  I don't mind discussing it here and there on this thread either. mike

Mike,
I have no need to debate you on this matter. You have already (in so much) as admitted defeat on the matter.
In previous posts I asked you two questions.
I asked if you believed that Christ is the Example we are to follow to walk with God.
You said yes.
I further asked you if Christ had any additional power or knowledge not available to the rest of humanity because of his preexistence
You said Yes. Knowledge.
The second answer is contradictory within the framework of the first.
We are taught from scripture to use Christ as our example and to follow him. We are taught to imitate his walk. The teaching of following the path that Christ blazed is interwoven through the entire context of scripture.
WAIT – Let me make it very clear I am not talking about using Christ mantle/job of Messiah as our example. I am speaking of the perfected human Christ as our example.

The Christ Scenario according to your belief.
Christ is born on earth and somewhere along the line He recalls his former life in heaven.
This knowledge would understandably have tremendous impact on his life and everything that he did on Earth. It would super charge his faith and ability to make choices that lead to the overcoming life. This knowledge would be a key factor in his ability to walk a path toward perfection.
Christ himself says that we are to follow him and all through the Bible we are commanded to use Christ as our example.
The normal human scenario –
We attempt to walk the path of Christ but we are missing the advantage given to Christ through His extra knowledge. We must go a different path then Christ because the one he blazed is not available to us as we do not have the tools/info/knowledge that he possessed.

This belief not only denies us Christ as our example it makes it impossible to follow him on the path to perfection as he traveled it.
This belief opens the door for a great deal of speculation/opinion/guesswork on the manner in which we can follow Christ. It opened the door for Satan to whisper in the ear of the believer, “You cannot follow Christ and live as he did because he had superior knowledge that you can never have,” It brings questions and doubt on how to follow Christ.
Not only does it do the above it raises many questions that I have never had a preexister answer from a scriptural standpoint.
1.Do you know in what way this special knowledge affected Christ abilities on Earth? For instance did it effect his ability to cheat death, overcome temptation, heal the sick, communicate with God, have father/son relationship with God, Love God, Love our neighbor, teach, ect.
2.In order to follow him can you tell me what areas were affected so I know that I cannot imitate him in those areas? Can you tell me how much percentage of Christ I can follow?
3.Do you know what happened to the memories and experiences of the Christ that lived in the prior life?
4.Just exactly how and when did Christ become aware of his existence/knowledge from the prior life.
No preexister that I have ever encountered has been able to answer these questions outside of speculation and opinion. Because of this the doctrine of preexistence turns following Christ a matter of speculation and guesswork. “I can follow Christ in this area but not in that area because he did it via his superior knowledge.” And what areas are those? Who knows it is up to everybody’s personal opinion.
The manner and amount that we can live as and follow the path of Christ is reduced to speculation and guesswork. Everybody can do what is right in their own eyes.
The doctrine of preexistence is another “Hath God said” doctrine. “Hath God said you can follow Christ’s path and imitate his walk?” “How can you do that when he had knowledge (unavailable to you) that impacted his walk?”
Preexistence is a good philosophical debate subject but as a doctrine it is dysfunctional. The only fruit it produces is doubt on our ability to follow the path that Christ walked.
There are those cut and paste people that would now throw scriptures at me and ignore that their conclusions fight against the general overall scriptural context of following Christ’s path. They fight against God’s plan and therefore against God.

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 23 2010,02:25)

Gene, You like Martains post, yet He has torn me down up side out, is tht what You call being nice?  Give me a break.  Also why do you think He left? Think about that too……Irene

For your info I left for the exact reasons I said I left.I was initially left because it was not reasonable to debate with people of such an irrational method. And Yes I include your methods in that group.
I am sure you have a good heart and that you are trying to walk with God, however your posts are something much different. Your posts have been completely unreasonable and irrational in their attempts to prove your theory. I am not sure if it is just a lack of teaching on the proper ways to discern/interpret scripture or if it simple stuborness. Either way it makes it completely frustrating and useless to discuss anything in a rational manner with you.
God said to Isaiah “Come let us reason together.” He created us with reasoning ability. Your posts in this area do not indicate an ability to reason on this particular subject.

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
We no longer speak of the Christ according to the flesh[2Cor5]
The Word of God came in the flesh.
God visited His people.

[martian]

Let me break this down into as simple a package as possible.
Two persons A and B
A= Preexistent Christ
B= Any normal human.
Both required to have father/son relationship with God
A – Has experiential and intellectual knowledge of this relationship. He has memories of that relationship and knows the importance of achieving it. All of these things greatly impact the decision making process he makes to gain this relationship.
B – Has no experience in this relationship and has no reference point to understand it’s importance. The only intellectual understanding he has is from what he is told or read. He has no prior experiences to guide his decisions and does not know if person A could achieve it because of his prior experience or not. Therefore has doubt that he can achieve it.
A & B are asked to overcome temptation.
A.Has experiences and knowledge (from his prior life) that inspire him to overcome. He struggles but overcomes in the end.
B.Does not know if A’s preexistence gave him any knowledge that helped him make decisions to overcome. Therefore he has doubt that he can overcome.
A & B Are asked to love their Neighbor.
A.– Has been in the presence of God for ? years and knows the boundless love God has for his children.
B.Has no knowledge of God’s love for his children and must struggle much more to achieve it.

And to top it off person B is asked to use person A as an example of how to do these things.
All those that fail in these attempts have a legitimate claim against God in that the comparison is not fair, the example not possible to follow and the test not honest or accurate.
Would the same God that said, “Will not the judge of all the Earth do what is right?” put his children in that situation?

Come on – If we are going to reason together then we have to be at least reasonable.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Martian,

I'll take this “story” post as a sign you had nothing to refute what I said about “firstborn” and “creation” and “bara”.

You said:

Quote

I have no need to debate you on this matter. You have already (in so much) as admitted defeat on the matter.

Every time I answer something you ask, you either say “WRONG!” or ignore it or imply that my answer somehow proves YOUR point.  

You said:

Quote

We attempt to walk the path of Christ but we are missing the advantage given to Christ through His extra knowledge. We must go a different path then Christ because the one he blazed is not available to us as we do not have the tools/info/knowledge that he possessed.

Why do you imagine you CAN be exactly like Christ?  Why do you feel the need to be?  He came to die for our sins so we can still be considered righteous in God's eyes even though there's no way we can live a sinless life – no matter how hard we try.  His perfection paid the price for our imperfection.  (Thank you Jesus and Praise Jah!)

Jesus taught us to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul.  Can we imitate that even if Christ pre-existed?  Sure.  He taught us to love our neighbors like we love ourselves.  Can we imitate that even though Christ pre-existed?  Sure.  Christ walked on water without a second thought because he KNEW he could by faith in God.  Peter didn't have the same knowledge that Jesus had, yet he also walked on water by faith.  Jesus said we could too, with only a tiny bit of faith.

What if we put a 3 year old boy in a monkey cage for 2 years?  Wouldn't he be able to climb trees like a champ at the end of that time?  Or would those monkeys have to be humans for him to imitate the way they climbed trees?  Can humans not imitate people or things that are different from them?

You want Jesus to be exactly like us, but who was his biological father?  Was his father a human being?  No.  So right from the jump he was different than all other humans.  Can't you see that?  

Jonah had first hand knowledge from God about the impending destruction of Ninevah.  Did the population of Ninevah have to have that same firsthand knowledge spoken directly from God in order to save themselves?  No.  They did as they were told by someone who had MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT GOD'S PLAN THAN THEY DID, and they lived.

You said:

Quote

It opened the door for Satan to whisper in the ear of the believer, “You cannot follow Christ and live as he did because he had superior knowledge that you can never have,” It brings questions and doubt on how to follow Christ.

I knew the reason you blind yourself to what the scriptures actually teach, I just didn't know the “reason behind the reason”.  Now I do.  I have no doubt about how to follow and imitate Christ for he was a wonderful teacher.  And he didn't do anything on earth that any of us can't also do – even with his additional knowledge of God.  In fact, he told us we could do what he did and even greater things.

You said:

Quote

No preexister that I have ever encountered has been able to answer these questions outside of speculation and opinion.

Your questions are pointless drivel.  Who cares?!?  Do you know the exact day Jesus will come on the clouds?  Does not knowing what day it will be somehow diminish your ability to always try to be ready and acceptable to the one who will judge us?

Do you know what New Jerusalem will look like exactly?  Would the fact that Jesus did somehow mean we can't follow what he taught us?

Does the fact that Jesus knew Abraham personally and we don't somehow mean we can't imitate the way Jesus acted towards others?

Your whole reasoning is flawed IMO.  You think that if Jesus pre-existed, then we can't help the poor and needy or preach the gospel or obey the commandments or have faith?  That's just silly to me.

Lose your “wish” of who you want Jesus to be and start believing scripture.

You said:

Quote

“Hath God said you can follow Christ’s path and imitate his walk?”  “How can you do that when he had knowledge (unavailable to you) that impacted his walk?”

Let's say you were an accountant all your life.  I want to learn about how to follow Jesus through you.  Do I need to posses every last bit of knowledge your mind contains about number crunching mish-mash to imitate your walk with Christ?  What part of that knowledge that Jesus possessed do you actually need in order to follow his and his God's commands?  Do you need to know everything the General knows to be a good soldier in the field?

You said:

Quote

There are those cut and paste people that would now throw scriptures at me and ignore that their conclusions fight against the general overall scriptural context of following Christ’s path.

That is you my friend.  I have seen at least a dozen scriptures posted by Irene, JA, t8, myself and others that CLEARLY say Jesus pre-existed, but it is you who ignore them or try to explain them away with faulty info about “firstborn” and “bara”.  And what's worse, when shown that your info was faulty or incomplete, you don't even address that.  Instead you post a long “story” about how I'm wrong and you're right.

I'm going to start a thread that break the scriptures down.  Look for it Martian, I'll start with Phillipians.  The thread will be about NOTHING more than how those who believe Jesus didn't pre-exist explain that scripture.  Then we can move on to one of the others.  I can't wait.  Do you hear that Gene and barley and Marty? I'll look for you guys on the new thread.

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You mean the Spirit of Christ?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,10:49)

Hi MB, You mean the Spirit of Christ?

Hi Nick,

To what do you refer, sir?

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The Spirit that made Christ Jesus speak and work as God.
Without the anointing he was an ordinary man.[Is53]
That anointing was with God and was God.

[GeneBalthrop]

martian………….Well put brother, but we still need to remember we are all on a journey here some may be more ahead of other, but we all need each other to succeed, so Love and Patience is the best way. I know the frustration of us all i have them too at times, but the love of God constrains me and sorrow causes me to try again to hold out my hand for new beginnings, i have learned with our brother Paul it is better to forget about the past and press on to the high calling of God the Father and Jesus our lord and Brother. Who will straighten out all things when he returns to recieve us to himself. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,12:55)

Hi MB, The Spirit that made Christ Jesus speak and work as God. Without the anointing he was an ordinary man.[Is53] That anointing was with God and was God.

Yes Nick,

Ordinary just like us, right?

EXCEPT HIS FATHER WAS GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT! What part of that do you knuckleheads not get?

Face it guys. Who else alive at that time (or any other time) didn't have a human father? Don't you think that would have made Jesus different right from the jump?

mike

[Arnold]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,06:33)

Hi JA, We no longer speak of the Christ according to the flesh[2Cor5] The Word of God came in the flesh. God visited His people.

Nick! It is ironic that you do not believe as t8 does. Why is that? He has given us good Scriptures that will tell us that Jesus was with His Father before the world was. So why of all people don't you believe that? Also how could Jesus say what He did in John 17:5 when He was not in Heaven with His Father before the world was. He had a glory which He asked His Father to return Him to. If He became that glory which I think is a Spirit Being now, then that is what He was before!!!!! Common sense will tell me that….Besides all other Scriptures…. why…Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Who was the father of Adam?
Lk3.38

Are you like Adam?

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
Jesus is not mentioned till the gospels.
Tha Spirit of Christ was in the prophets

[Arnold]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 23 2010,02:43)

Irene……….There is no way i mean you or Georg any disrespect , i both love and care about you both very much, and agree with you and Georg on some subjects, like Trinitarian and others , but I just do not believe in the Preexistence of Jesus as a Preexisting Being of some kind before his berth. Martian get frustrated at times as you and i and all do, but it should not be about Us or our personal feelings , but about the truth of God's Words and what they actually are saying.  Look none of us have (ALL) the truth and i think GOD planned it this way so (EVERY) MOUTH will be closed in the end. But we still can love one another and press on to the high calling of God. I know it is Hard to sore with Eagles when your stuck with Turkeys, peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene

Gene! I agree with you with some, but there are to many Scriptures to just ignore what is written in the Word of God. And by the way even The Word of God, is Jesus. He is the spoken Word of God and He will come again as The Word of God. As King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Rev. 19:13and verse 16……believe me I too get frustrated, but that gives nobody a right to a personal attack. And that is what Martian did. And Heaven seen it. The rest I let you guess. It is up to you if you don't want to believe what several Scripture say, but I do, and go by them…… Jesus Himself said that He came from Heaven, to do the will of His Father. I also like the one Scripture in Rev. 19:13 and verse 16. Which goes with John 1:1……It explains it so nicely, and yet you and others deny it……. That is all I can do. Tell Martian Cheers, He will know what that is……
Peace to you, Irene

[Arnold]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,14:41)

Hi Irene, Jesus is not mentioned till the gospels. Tha Spirit of Christ was in the prophets

Nick! I disagree! Scriptures teach me otherwise. By Jesus own Words He said that He was in Heaven with His Father before the World was, and that He wants to go back to that. He has immortality, and cannot die again. That was His award…..You know I read that some even believe that the Angels cannot die, I disagree. Even though they are Spirit beings, but whatever God has created that He can destroy. Otherwise we would limit God, and He can do anything He wants…. And He will be in the Lake of Fire along with His Demons…….another subject…Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
Did the Spirit teach through Jesus?
Did the Spirit teach through Jesus?
Why do you not believe the Spirit?

[Author]

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