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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2010,04:00) Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,02:37) You have no clue what firstborn of creation means outside of your English culture and translation. You go no farther because you do not care to change your opinion no matter what proof is stacked up against it.
Hi Martian,Wow, that's a lot of accusation for one post! I detect that you are among those who have to come up with alternate meanings for “only begotten Son of God” and “firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation of God” to make your understanding fit in with scripture. You do make a good point that we should try to understand what “firstborn of every creature” and “begotten of God” meant 2000 years ago when it was written.
Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said:
Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary;He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh. He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians,
Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh. Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D.,
We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father,This is a man who grew up less than 300 years after Jesus speaking the same language that the NT was written in and was a learned Bible student and teacher – and he took “firstborn of every creature” to literally mean Jesus was “the firstborn of every creature BEFORE ALL THE AGES”.
Neither of these early church fathers seemed to think that “firstborn of every creature” meant “preeminent over mankind” or “begotten of God” meant Jesus was “placed in an esteemed postition by God” like the newer trinitarian scholars like to claim.
There's the support for my and Irene's understanding of what “firstborn of all creation” REALLY meant in the scriptures. Where's your proof that the Greek words mean something different than their literal translation?
peace and love,
mike
Eventually most preexisters and trinitarians call upon the church fathers. They fail to acknowledge that after John died the church was pulled into Greek philosophy by these very church fathers.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 12 2010,05:28) LOL…it amuses me how you keep citing quotes that refute what you're trying to prove. You do understand, Mike, that if a personage exists before time He is, by definition, timeless in His origin, don't you? 
Really Paul? You only wrote 2 sentences but had to edit?
No diversions sir, this is not a trinity thread. You do believe Jesus pre-existed his flesh, don't you?
mike
I was challenging your assertion Mike, so how is that diverting from the topic? I do believe that the Logos preexisted His incarnation, but I don't believe He was birthed before time because no evidence points me to this conclusion.
Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,06:11) I am not interested in trying to fit my doctrine into scripture. I leave that to the Trinitarians and the preexisiters. What I am interested in is what scripture says within it's original languages, culture and history. Explanations of the firstborn have been made several times that include these things. They were ignored.
Hi Martian,I won't tackle the other thread all at once, but your first point was:
Quote But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?
Really? Doesn't scripture say that Jesus is both the ROOT and the BRANCH of David? Jesus was the firstborn of all, then he was born as flesh, then he was the firstborn from the dead. Three births for one person – wow!Matt 22:41-45
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.Pre-existence most definitely fits into scripture. In fact, it is scripture that teaches it. It is not just something someone conceived out of thin air.
mike
Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,06:30) Eventually most preexisters and trinitarians call upon the church fathers. They fail to acknowledge that after John died the church was pulled into Greek philosophy by these very church fathers.
Hi Martian,Yet I don't “call upon” the church fathers for their spiritual beliefs. Only to show you that “prototokos pasa ktisis” and “monogenes” actually meant back then the same thing they do today: “firstborn of every creature” and “only begotten”.
Where's your proof that the Greek words mean something different?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2010,06:40) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 12 2010,05:28) LOL…it amuses me how you keep citing quotes that refute what you're trying to prove. You do understand, Mike, that if a personage exists before time He is, by definition, timeless in His origin, don't you?
Really Paul? You only wrote 2 sentences but had to edit? No diversions sir, this is not a trinity thread. You do believe Jesus pre-existed his flesh, don't you?
mike
The theory of preexistence and the Theory of the Trinity stem from the same Greek philosophies of dualism and paganism. It is quite natural for them to be connected.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 12 2010,06:45) I was challenging your assertion Mike, so how is that diverting from the topic? I do believe that the Logos preexisted His incarnation, but I don't believe He was birthed before time because no evidence points me to this conclusion.
Don't start what you aren't willing to finish Paul.Don't make me hit you with the question you ran away from for 2 weeks.
This isn't the thread for that. mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2010,06:49) Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,06:11) I am not interested in trying to fit my doctrine into scripture. I leave that to the Trinitarians and the preexisiters. What I am interested in is what scripture says within it's original languages, culture and history. Explanations of the firstborn have been made several times that include these things. They were ignored.
Hi Martian,I won't tackle the other thread all at once, but your first point was:
Quote But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?
Really? Doesn't scripture say that Jesus is both the ROOT and the BRANCH of David? Jesus was the firstborn of all, then he was born as flesh, then he was the firstborn from the dead. Three births for one person – wow!Matt 22:41-45
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.Pre-existence most definitely fits into scripture. In fact, it is scripture that teaches it. It is not just something someone conceived out of thin air.
mike
I will not deal with things you pull out of context. The statement you quote is explained further on.You know what forget the post. I am not interested in debating philosophy with the Greeks. I would actually like to walk with God using Christ as my example. You have heard of that have you not?
Just answer a few questions.
1. How does your doctrine help me become more like Christ?
2. How does it make Christ more of a perfect example for me?
3. What happened to the memories and experences of the Christ in the prior life?
4. How did his preexistence effect his ability to walk with God on Earth?Wow Nick, Now my eyes have really been are really open –
– but only in consternation!
Do you ever explain anything that you post?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2010,08:02) Hi MB,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit of Christ indeed is lord of David and before him
Nick! You never answered my question, why? When Jesus said that He came down from Heaven, it is the Spirit that came down from Heaven? And what about Phil. 2:5 where He said that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant? Jesus also said that He was before Abraham, and that is not so? He is the firstborn of all creation. And Jesus did say that He was with His Father before the world was…… You have not answered any question….. t8 believes all of that and it surprised me that you do not….. that Jesus only became alive by Maria…… not according to Scriptures
I am also mighty tired of a certain person who brings my name up, because I will not further engage with Him….. I am also angry according to Him, which is redicoulous and laughable to me…. Not this person, being 72 years young has taught me a few things about human nature…….. IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,17:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2010,17:17) Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom [1Cor15]
Yes Nick,Now add that thought to 1 Cor 15 and you will begin to understand that Jesus is still the man who is mediator between us and God, but he is now clothed with a spiritual body.
mike
Hi Mike:With this statement, I do agree. Jesus is still a man who now has a spiritual body, and that means that he is alive forever more. Death has no dominion over him.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
He is alive forevermore because he shares God's Spirit not beacuse of his imperishable tent.
It is the Spirit of LIFE that gives eternal life.
That is our hope tooQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2010,12:28) Hi Irene,
The Spirit often spoke through him.
His words are spirit and life.
The Spirit is eternal
That is not an answer to all the Questions that I asked….. I know that His Words are Spirit and Truth, however He is also
“The Word of God” in John 1:1 and He will come again as “The Word of God” Rev. 19:13 and verse 16. Why don't you ever answer questions that are being asked, instead say something that has nothing to do with those questions that I asked. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus was with His Father in Heaven as a live Spirit Being or not. Yes, or no will do. He came down from heaven and He knew where He came from. He said so……. Firstborn of all creation means firstborn. He had a glory with Jehovah God and said He wanted to go back to that. I said all of this before ……IreneQuote (Arnold @ July 12 2010,12:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2010,08:02) Hi MB,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit of Christ indeed is lord of David and before him
Nick! You never answered my question, why? When Jesus said that He came down from Heaven, it is the Spirit that came down from Heaven? And what about Phil. 2:5 where He said that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant? Jesus also said that He was before Abraham, and that is not so? He is the firstborn of all creation. And Jesus did say that He was with His Father before the world was…… You have not answered any question….. t8 believes all of that and it surprised me that you do not….. that Jesus only became alive by Maria…… not according to Scriptures
I am also mighty tired of a certain person who brings my name up, because I will not further engage with Him….. I am also angry according to Him, which is redicoulous and laughable to me…. Not this person, being 72 years young has taught me a few things about human nature…….. Irene
Broken record. All those scriptures have been dealt with many times.
Get a new shtick Irene.Quote (Arnold @ July 12 2010,17:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2010,12:28) Hi Irene,
The Spirit often spoke through him.
His words are spirit and life.
The Spirit is eternal
That is not an answer to all the Questions that I asked….. I know that His Words are Spirit and Truth, however He is also
“The Word of God” in John 1:1 and He will come again as “The Word of God” Rev. 19:13 and verse 16. Why don't you ever answer questions that are being asked, instead say something that has nothing to do with those questions that I asked. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus was with His Father in Heaven as a live Spirit Being or not. Yes, or no will do. He came down from heaven and He knew where He came from. He said so……. Firstborn of all creation means firstborn. He had a glory with Jehovah God and said He wanted to go back to that. I said all of this before ……Irene
Why should anyone answer your questions. You think you are too good to answer other people questions.Mike
If you are so right about your doctrine then answer the questions. they should be easy if you are correct. Come on i challenge you to answer them.
just answer a few questions.
1. How does your doctrine help me become more like Christ?
2. How does it make Christ more of a perfect example for me?
3. What happened to the memories and experences of the Christ in the prior life?
4. How did his preexistence effect his ability to walk with God on Earth?Come on big boy here is your chance to shine up all of us. Show how wonderfully your doctrine helps me to be like Christ. Tell us all that your doctrine does to enhance our walk with God. Tell us how it builds hope in our hearts. Tell us how it changes hearts through hope in following an example.
Come on this is your chance before I write your doctrine off as another cultish philosophy.
Mike…………martian is right on this one brother. the doctrine of Preexistence of Jesus is every bit as bad as the doctrine of the Trinity both are connected with each other, both separate our likeness of Jesus both are false teachings. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 13 2010,01:56) Mike…………martian is right on this one brother. the doctrine of Preexistence of Jesus is every bit as bad as the doctrine of the Trinity both are connected with each other, both separate our likeness of Jesus both are false teachings. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,
Don't bother too much. these folks we have been engaging on the subject have a place worn on the stone for their backsides on Mars Hill. They are not interested in doctrines that have potential to change lives. they are only interested in having some theory of philosophy to debate. They are not interested in fruit. They want to change our minds and not enhance our hearts. If ever something should be called vanity.
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