Preexistence

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,14:38)

Hi jodi, You may be happy with intellectual assent as a new way to God but is it written? Such understandings do not deal with our need for God's forgiveness. All have sinned and fallen short.

Nick what on earth are you muttering about?

People have to understand what the scriptures are saying in order to believe them, that is my point. When someone understands something it is because it makes sense to them. God wants us to TRUST in His word, not blindly, but because it has been proven in our lives, and has been written in hearts, because it makes sense in our brains.

There is only one way to God and it is through God Himself working in us. Believing in Jesus is believing that through God's Spirit man can be made righteous and receive immortality.

The WAY to God is according to the Will of God who desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. By Jesus Christ we know what turns man away from his carnal nature and to God, it is the Holy Spirit. God will give His Spirit to all men, drawing them into His ways.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
A fine theory and it will be popular.
But we need to become established in a relationship with God.

[Cindy]

It is through our Mediator Jesus Christ that we now can go to the Throne of God and ask for the forgiveness of our sins. He is the perfect sacrifice, nothing else is needed, sin is now not imputed to us. After Baptism we have received the Holy Spirit and we now can understand the things of God. God will reveal more and more truths to us if we submit to Him.  Nick is right when he says that we need to establish a relationship with God. But I am wondering this tread is on the pre existing of Christ. I guess Jodi does not believe in it. Quoting those scriptures that have proven to me that He has, makes no difference to Jodi, so I will not put them up again.
So Bless all in Christ Jesus or Lord and future King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Amen, and Amen
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi……….Nick doesn't realize God's words makes perfect since if His Spirit is in you . In fact it's the only way we can understand it. The Spirit of (TRUTH) Gives understanding to us, so to think understand is not coupled with God's word is pure foolishness . God has given us a Spirit of soundness and power. IMO

love and peace to you and yours……………………………..gene

[Jodi]

Quote (Cindy @ Jan. 28 2009,19:14)

It is through our Mediator Jesus Christ that we now can go to the Throne of God and ask for the forgiveness of our sins. He is the perfect sacrifice, nothing else is needed, sin is now not imputed to us. After Baptism we have received the Holy Spirit and we now can understand the things of God. God will reveal more and more truths to us if we submit to Him. Nick is right when he says that we need to establish a relationship with God. But I am wondering this tread is on the pre existing of Christ. I guess Jodi does not believe in it. Quoting those scriptures that have proven to me that He has, makes no difference to Jodi, so I will not put them up again. So Bless all in Christ Jesus or Lord and future King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Amen, and Amen Peace and Love Irene

Yes Irene I have read those scriptures and like I have already said several times, I know what you believe, I understand what you believe, I just don't feel that it is the truth given all of scripture and I have explained in detail why. You however don't even bother to try and see my understanding and then make any attempt to show directly how I am wrong. If you want to teach someone something you must first try and understand where they are coming from, but unfortunately you refuse to do that, and like I have said, I find that to be a little rude, especially now how you continue to carry on about me and what I believe when you don't have a clue as to where my understanding is coming from.

I know it is hard to read something that you know goes against what you believe. But guess what you should read it anyway and not be afraid. You not looking at what I put forth and responding directly to my point of view only makes it look like you are hanging onto a belief and not really the truth, as if you are more concerned about being proven wrong then you are about confirming the truth.

[Cindy]

Hi Jodi! I do know what you believe, and I also believe that your Parents came out of the W.W.C. of God. I also have in mind I think that they started the United, am I right? I also believe that you have studied with the Christadelphians, correct? So Jodi I do know some of your believes.
May God keep you and bless you,
Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi]

Quote (Cindy @ Jan. 28 2009,22:43)

Hi Jodi! I do know what you believe, and I also believe that your Parents came out of the W.W.C. of God. I also have in mind I think that they started the United, am I right? I also believe that you have studied with the Christadelphians, correct? So Jodi I do know some of your believes. May God keep you and bless you, Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

When I said you need to understand where I am coming from I didn't mean what so ever the church I went to until I was 19, or by some online papers I read concerning beliefs of the Christadelphian church.

I am specifically speaking of my POSTS. It would be nice if you would take the time to actually read through them and think about what is being said. My understanding is expressed in my posts, not in a church I went to when I was a kid.

What you have stated here proves my point entirely and makes me all the more frustrated with your approach of interaction on this forum.

To say that you know my beliefs because you remember what church I went to, but NOT from the many lengthly posts I have written, many directly in response to your posts, makes me at a loss for words.

[martian]

Quote (Jodi @ Jan. 30 2009,02:01)

Quote (Cindy @ Jan. 28 2009,22:43) Hi Jodi! I do know what you believe, and I also believe that your Parents  came out of the W.W.C. of God. I also have in mind I think that they started the United, am I right?  I also believe that you have studied with the Christadelphians, correct? So Jodi I do know some of your believes. May God keep you and bless you, Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene, When I said you need to understand where I am coming from I didn't mean what so ever the church I went to until I was 19, or by some online papers I read concerning beliefs of the Christadelphian church. I am specifically speaking of my POSTS. It would be nice if you would take the time to actually read through them and think about what is being said. My understanding is expressed in my posts, not in a church I went to when I was a kid. What you have stated here proves my point entirely and makes me all the more frustrated with your approach of interaction on this forum. To say that you know my beliefs because you remember what church I went to, but NOT from the many lengthly posts I have written, many directly in response to your posts, makes me at a loss for words.

I have been called many things on this board too. Unitarian for one. I guess it is inconceivable to some that a person might honestly study the scriptures and come up with conclussions on their own.

[martian]

Many orthodox Jews through history have thought of very important things to have existed, by the foreknowledge of God, before the chaos of Genesis. Hebrew thinkers seem to have an easier time understanding Yahweh as being out of our finite time frame. Greek thinkers tend to want things more finite and nailed down. This is clearly the case in the way these Hebrews wrote scripture too. For instance In Psalms 139 David is exclaiming how Adonai knows everything about him and knew him before His birth. In verse 16 he writes…. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed….. Was David Pre-existent? In Jeremiah 1/4 and 5 Here is the word of Adonai that came to me (5) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I separated you for myself…….

The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medo-Persian Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as God's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Jews.(Is. 44/28- 45/1) Who says of Cyrus…… He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His ANOINTED, TO CYRUS, WHOSE RIGHT HAND I HAVE HELD — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut….. Yahweh could not have literaly held the hand of Cyrus before he was born.

Yahweh speaks of Jesus in exactly the same way. 1 Peter 1/20 God knew him before the forming of the universe but revealed him in the last days for your sakes….. If we say in this verse that Jesus is pre-existent then we must also say it of David, Jeremiah and Cyrus. Jesus never claimed to be anointed or exist through eternity. Furthermore if we are to believe that Jesus pre-existed then so did we according to Rom. 8/28-30 ……Now we know that God is working everything together for good: for those who love God; for those who by design are called ones. BECAUSE THOSE WHOM HE KNEW PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY TO BE IN CONFORMITY WITH HIS SON'S IMAGE, SO HE WOULD BE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BROTHERS. NOW THOSE WHOM HE MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO CALLED; AND THOSE WHOM HE CALLED, HE ALSO JUSTIFIED. NOW THOSE WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, HE ALSO GLORIFIED……. There are three important points in this passage. One, God by his foreknowledge knew about us. We were marked out before our births, yet we are not preexistent. He speaks of this act in the past tense as if had already happened. Two, we are to be in conformity with his son’s image. We are to be like him. Three, Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers (We are those brothers) We are equated with Jesus as the same. God had a predetermined design to call us, justify us and glorify us. This was his advance plan for mankind, including Jesus. This was a plan based on our agreement to follow His plan. He never usurps our free will to choose. As a Hebrew reads these verses he will understand that Yahweh was seeing out of time and prophetically speaking of the events he knew were going to happen. This is not predetermination but forknowledge!

[Cindy]

Jodi! You are wrong when you say that I do not read your post, I do. But what do you want me to say to you, when I do not agree. There are a handful of people that are for it, and a handful of people that are against the Preexisting of Jesus. I was were you are some time ago, but I am sorry to say, because you get upset, but God did not leave me in that unbelief. It took me years, after the W.J. talked about it. In fact I thought that He was crazy and I even told him so. You talk about the plan of God like only you are called and all that do not belief like you do are not Christian? So what are we then? My Husband and I have studied the Scriptures for a long time and we were Baptized and were born from above and have God's Holy Spirit. Now we can go directley to the Throne of God and asked for the forgiveness of our Sins. Yes, sin is not imputed to us, but if we think that we do not sin the truth is not in us. God wants us to grow in knowledge and in truth, and we have done so. If you don't agree, I can't help that. Yes, God has a plan and He has given it to the His people. Have you checked out the prophecy section, you will find some articles of that plan. Some have been fulfilled and some are soon to come about. Come Lord Jesus come. We all will then be united and do not have to wonder any more who is right and who is wrong, all will know the truth. The truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. That I am waiting patiently for, I am under the Blood of Christ Luke 22:20 and that is were we are going to stay.
Peace amd Love Irene

[Cindy]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2009,04:47)

Many orthodox Jews through history have thought of very important things to have existed, by the foreknowledge of God, before the chaos of Genesis. Hebrew thinkers seem to have an easier time understanding Yahweh as being out of our finite time frame.  Greek thinkers tend to want things more finite and nailed down. This is clearly the case in the way these Hebrews wrote scripture too. For instance In Psalms 139 David is exclaiming how Adonai knows everything about him and knew him before His birth. In verse 16 he writes…. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed….. Was David Pre-existent?  In Jeremiah 1/4 and 5 Here is the word of Adonai that came to me (5) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I separated you for myself……. The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medo-Persian Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as God's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Jews.(Is. 44/28- 45/1)   Who says of Cyrus……  He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His ANOINTED, TO CYRUS, WHOSE RIGHT HAND I HAVE HELD — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut….. Yahweh could not have literaly held the hand of Cyrus before he was born.   Yahweh speaks of Jesus in exactly the same way. 1 Peter 1/20  God knew him before the forming of the universe but revealed him in the last days for your sakes…..  If we say in this verse that Jesus is pre-existent then we must also say it of David, Jeremiah and Cyrus. Jesus never claimed to be anointed or exist through eternity. Furthermore if we are to believe that Jesus pre-existed then so did we according to Rom. 8/28-30 ……Now we know that God is working everything together for good: for those who love God; for those who by design are called ones. BECAUSE THOSE WHOM HE KNEW PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY TO BE IN CONFORMITY WITH HIS SON'S IMAGE, SO HE WOULD BE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BROTHERS. NOW THOSE WHOM HE MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO CALLED; AND THOSE WHOM HE CALLED, HE ALSO JUSTIFIED. NOW THOSE WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, HE ALSO GLORIFIED……. There are three important points in this passage.  One, God by his foreknowledge knew about us. We were marked out before our births, yet we are not preexistent. He speaks of this act in the past tense as if had already happened. Two, we are to be in conformity with his son’s image.  We are to be like him. Three, Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers (We are those brothers) We are equated with Jesus as the same.  God had a predetermined design to call us, justify us and glorify us. This was his advance plan for mankind, including Jesus.  This was a plan based on our agreement to follow His plan. He never usurps our free will to choose. As a Hebrew reads these verses he will understand that Yahweh was seeing out of time and prophetically speaking of the events he knew were going to happen. This is not predetermination but forknowledge!

Martin!  All what you are posting is concerned about what will or did happen during the Period before Christ became a man and after. You are explaining all of God in the old Testament and some in the New. What you do forget that we are under diffrent Covenants. God has made several Covenants with His people. Just because there are some Scriptures that are hard to understand and what David meant for instant, or Jeremiah, but those are all books out of the old Covenant and have passed away, and the New Covenant is in effect now. Read Psalms 22:8 and do not think that it is Wisdom, wisdom is what someone has not is.
Col 1:15-18
Rev.3:14
John 1:1-14
John 17:5
For me those are to many Scriptures to ignore. Or to say that they mean something else.
God send His only befotten Son to come to earth and become a man, so He can be our perfect Sacrifies.  He was the only one who could do so, because He fornew and knew what was at stake if He failed. He had God's Holy Spirit full strenght, nobody ever had and will have God's Holy Spirit full strenght. We all have fallen short of the glory of God. If you think that you do not sin the truth is not in you.
There are so many things that show us, that the Word was the one that made all. How? Then He became flesh, that is not in just in God's plan. There is another being. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, HELLO READ THAT AGAIN. And then He MADE ALL THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM, BY THE POWER OF THE fATHER.  The Father bought Forth His Son. That is not about the earthlty walk that happend later. GOD SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD, READ THAT AGAIN. Where did God send Him from. That is all, so Auf Wiedersehn.
So long, good-bye.
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

You know if you followed even one of the many proper principles neded for good interpertation you might come into the truth. I am not going to say you are not saved and I wish you would not lump me in with others that have said that.
Also I have never said that I do not sin. I do say I am forgiven. All my sins past present and future.

As for your age and the amount of time you have studied or walked with God – I am thankfull that you walk with God but that is no proof that you are correct.
For example – You insist on translating “word” in John one diffeently then it is done 350 times in scripture. You do this not by the authority of the scripture but by filtering that verse through your doctrine.
I am not going to engage with you any longer because I believe you to one of those that are not interested in real testing of your doctrine. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. I think that pretty much sums it up.

[martian]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 05 2009,08:25)

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2009,04:47) Many orthodox Jews through history have thought of very important things to have existed, by the foreknowledge of God, before the chaos of Genesis. Hebrew thinkers seem to have an easier time understanding Yahweh as being out of our finite time frame.  Greek thinkers tend to want things more finite and nailed down. This is clearly the case in the way these Hebrews wrote scripture too. For instance In Psalms 139 David is exclaiming how Adonai knows everything about him and knew him before His birth. In verse 16 he writes…. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed….. Was David Pre-existent?  In Jeremiah 1/4 and 5 Here is the word of Adonai that came to me (5) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I separated you for myself……. The omnipotent and omniscient God also speaks of Cyrus, king of the Medo-Persian Empire, more than 150 years before the events described occurred. He is even referred to as God's anointed in the work that he was to accomplish on behalf of the captive Jews.(Is. 44/28- 45/1)   Who says of Cyrus……  He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built, and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid. Thus says the Lord to His ANOINTED, TO CYRUS, WHOSE RIGHT HAND I HAVE HELD — to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings. To open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut….. Yahweh could not have literaly held the hand of Cyrus before he was born.   Yahweh speaks of Jesus in exactly the same way. 1 Peter 1/20  God knew him before the forming of the universe but revealed him in the last days for your sakes…..  If we say in this verse that Jesus is pre-existent then we must also say it of David, Jeremiah and Cyrus. Jesus never claimed to be anointed or exist through eternity. Furthermore if we are to believe that Jesus pre-existed then so did we according to Rom. 8/28-30 ……Now we know that God is working everything together for good: for those who love God; for those who by design are called ones. BECAUSE THOSE WHOM HE KNEW PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY TO BE IN CONFORMITY WITH HIS SON'S IMAGE, SO HE WOULD BE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BROTHERS. NOW THOSE WHOM HE MARKED OUT PREVIOUSLY, HE ALSO CALLED; AND THOSE WHOM HE CALLED, HE ALSO JUSTIFIED. NOW THOSE WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, HE ALSO GLORIFIED……. There are three important points in this passage.  One, God by his foreknowledge knew about us. We were marked out before our births, yet we are not preexistent. He speaks of this act in the past tense as if had already happened. Two, we are to be in conformity with his son’s image.  We are to be like him. Three, Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers (We are those brothers) We are equated with Jesus as the same.  God had a predetermined design to call us, justify us and glorify us. This was his advance plan for mankind, including Jesus.  This was a plan based on our agreement to follow His plan. He never usurps our free will to choose. As a Hebrew reads these verses he will understand that Yahweh was seeing out of time and prophetically speaking of the events he knew were going to happen. This is not predetermination but forknowledge! Martin!  All what you are posting is concerned about what will or did happen during the Period before Christ became a man and after. You are explaining all of God in the old Testament and some in the New. What you do forget that we are under diffrent Covenants. God has made several Covenants with His people. Just because there are some Scriptures that are hard to understand and what David meant for instant, or Jeremiah, but those are all books out of the old Covenant and have passed away, and the New Covenant is in effect now. Read Psalms 22:8 and do not think that it is Wisdom, wisdom is what someone has not is. Col 1:15-18 Rev.3:14 John 1:1-14 John 17:5 For me those are to many Scriptures to ignore. Or to say that they mean something else. God send His only befotten Son to come to earth and become a man, so He can be our perfect Sacrifies.  He was the only one who could do so, because He fornew and knew what was at stake if He failed. He had God's Holy Spirit full strenght, nobody ever had and will have God's Holy Spirit full strenght. We all have fallen short of the glory of God. If you think that you do not sin the truth is not in you. There are so many things that show us, that the Word was the one that made all. How? Then He became flesh, that is not in just in God's plan. There is another being. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, HELLO READ THAT AGAIN. And then He MADE ALL THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM, BY THE POWER OF THE fATHER.  The Father bought Forth His Son. That is not about the earthlty walk that happend later. GOD SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD, READ THAT AGAIN. Where did God send Him from. That is all,  so Auf Wiedersehn. So long, good-bye. Peace and Love Irene

BTW – It is an entire Bible not seperated NT and OT. Nothing in the NT was meant to be understood outside of the OT.

[Jodi Lee]

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Irene WHO is this scripture specifically speaking of?

Who died for us?

Who's body died on the cross removing our sins?

It was NOT the blood of a spirit son, it was the blood of the human being Jesus.

God gave his perfect son over to death. Death is the punishment for sin, but Jesus knew no sin but died anyway.

He died anyway because Jesus was committed under the punishment of Adam to have a body that could die. So when he was speared in the side and hung on the cross he was able to die. Of course God could not hold him to that punishment so he raised him from the dead.

Actually it's even more then that,

Jesus became sin FOR US, to know sin, is to feel guilt. To know sin and to feel sinful is to know you did something wrong, to FEEL you did something wrong.

Jesus was not the only person to die for the sake of someone else. Jesus was not the only person to be tortured and crucified. Jesus however was the only man who bared the whole world's sins. God gave Jesus over to the experience of sin, the feeling of sin even though he knew know sin. Jesus felt guilt even though he was guilty of nothing. This is the significance of God giving his son over to death.

Irene my guess is that you see the term Jesus as God's only begotten son as representing his pre-existence. Clarify me if I am wrong, but you believe that his begottenness is referring to him being made as a spirit son before the beginning of creation.

Like I said previously, the name Jesus was given to an infant boy, not a pre-existent son.  My understanding is that
Jesus, the human being, was God’s only begotten son, because he was predestined according to God’s plan from the beginning to be given God’s Spirit in a measure that would keep him from sin. Jesus was the only human created with God having in mind to work His Spirit into him in a way that would keep him from sin. Sin separates us from God.  

Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Jesus was the ONLY human being to grow from infancy under God’s Spirit. As Romans tells us, to be LED by the Spirit of God is to be a son of God.

Luke 1:35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

I believe this scripture directly proves my point, Jesus was a human being, and called the Son of God according to the Holy Spirit. What is So significant about the resurrection of Jesus? Well to man it is highly significant if Jesus was truly a human being in every way as we are, because that means if Jesus could be raised from the dead that we also can be raised from the dead. The Spirit worked to keep Jesus holy. Jesus as God's only begotten son is NOT because he pre-existed as a spirit son, but because he was given the Spirit of God.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Irene WHO did God send into the world that saved our sins? The bible does not tell us that God sent a spirit son into the world, God sent us an infant boy who grew under the Holy Spirit.  A spirit son did not save us from our sins but a human man, flesh and blood did.

Irene you asked, “ How can you send a son you don’t have?”

Romans 5 clearly shows the plan of God, of which He had established from the beginning.  God sent into the world the human being that would remove our sins. What was SENT was the Spirit of God to create His plan from the beginning. God knew of Jesus from the very beginning. God created the heavens and the earth and everything on it for the type of human being Jesus was raised into. God destined certain ages, He allotted a period of time for sin to exist, but all along His plan was for a future of people like the raised Jesus to dwell on earth for an eternity.

God did not make this creation for ignorant sinful man, but for the man of righteousness. If God wouldn’t have known that man could be made righteous then He would have NEVER made earth in the first place. The plan all along was for righteous immortal human beings, like Jesus, to dwell on earth. His plan all along was not to send some spirit son to save man.

God sent His plan into the world, and in that plan was a man who would be given God’s Spirit. The human being from God’s beginning plan was sent.  This is specifically why we NEVER see in the bible the term pre-existing spirit son, we always SEE JESUS, the name given to a human being born of Mary!

Irene, my belief is that your understanding of demons is completely of pagan origin. Jesus HEALED people with unclean spirits. The Old Testament tells us quite clearly that God is the ONLY God capable of inflicting humans with suffering of mind and body. God sends unclean spirits unto people, and He made it so they could be transferred through offspring. Jesus rebuked these unclean spirits from man HEALING them.

Luke 8:1 Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with Him, 2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities–Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, 3 and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided for Him from their substance. 4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable:

27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with ch
ains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

35 Then they went out to see what had happened, and came to Jesus, and found the man from whom the demons had departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid.

Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

Pagans believed that cursing and blessing came from false gods, that false gods sent evil spirits onto people. The Israelites we are told several times went after the beliefs of false gods. The book of Enoch seems clear to me that the writers were under the influence of pagan ideas. For it is ONLY under the POWER of God’s Spirit that cursing can come unto man. We are told in Jeremiah 10 that false gods have no power. The Pharisees however believed that the evil spirits of these false gods were real. The truth, as clearly laid out in the Old Testament, is that only YHWH and His powers can bring on cursing, evil/unclean spirits.

I believe your idea Irene, that the man knew Jesus because the demons inside him knew Jesus previously as a spirit son, is not of scripture but according to imagination and false doctrine. The man who was healed by Jesus called Jesus by his name not according to a pre-existent being, but according to the man Jesus, who was called Son of the Most High God because the Spirit of Holiness dwelt in him.

The man was said to be from the city and that his demons came and went so that he was kept under guard. It seems likely to me that he had heard Jesus speak previously, and that is how he later recognized him. For a great multitude gathered from every city to hear Jesus.

Irene you asked, ”Who would you suggest is the image, and first born, that created all things? “

Irene the following scriptures are clearly speaking of the MAN, the MAN Jesus Christ, the man anointed by God with the Holy Spirit. There is NOTHING in the following scripture that speaks of a pre-existing spirit son.  

Colossians 1: 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

The person who is the image of the invisible God is specifically shown to be the MAN who’s blood was shed on the cross, and being that man who died on the cross he is the firstborn of the dead over all creation. The entire bible tells us that YHWH created the heavens and earth NOT a spirit son. The above scripture directly tells us that YHWH created the heavens and earth BY Jesus, which this means the same as through or because of, this is why the end of verse 16 tells us that God made the heavens and the earth through him and FOR him.  

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

See it says right here that the person before all things and who is head of the body is NOT a pre-existing son but the MAN who was raised from the dead.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

It pleased the Father that in WHO all things should dwell? In Jesus Christ of course, the human being.

20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

See it says right here it is the person who died on the cross that things are reconciled, it is not by a pre-existing son who God sent that he reconciled the world.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight–

Irene according to my understanding your adding to scripture an idea that is not there. That which is before all things was not said to be a pre-existent son, but was simply Jesus whom we know was the name given to the infant of Mary, that grew in grace and wisdom under the Spirit of God.

My understanding comes from what I personally get from  studying the scriptures.  If I write something from somewhere else I will cite it.

Looking forward to your response, peace to you, Jodi

[martian]

Good post – I agree with almost everything you said.

[martian]

Hey Jodi,
Which of Benner's books do you have?
I have found his lexicon very usefull. I might suggest His smaller books like “The Living Words” and “His name is One”.

[meerkat]

Jodi,

Great post, I agree.

One thing I noticed when looking at Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

At the start of the verse where it says by him – most every other place that greek word word en 1722 is translated as {{in}} – I believe what is being talked about in those verses is the new creation – as you point out it relates to Jesus as being the firstborn from the dead – and being the head of the body.

This is about God reconciling the world to himself and the new creation being in, through and for Christ.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 05 2009,07:51)

Jodi!  You are wrong when you say that I do not read your post, I do. But what do you want me to say to you, when I do not agree. There are a handful of people that are for it, and a handful of people that are against the Preexisting of Jesus. I was were you are some time ago, but I am sorry to say, because you get upset, but God did not leave me in that unbelief. It took me years, after the W.J. talked about it. In fact I thought that He was crazy and I even told him so. You talk about the plan of God like only you are called and all that do not belief like you do are not Christian? So what are we then? My Husband and I have studied the Scriptures for a long time and we were Baptized and were born from above and have God's Holy Spirit. Now we can go directley to the Throne of God and asked for the forgiveness of our Sins. Yes, sin is not imputed to us, but if we think that we do not sin the truth is not in us. God wants us to grow in knowledge and in truth, and we have done so. If you don't agree, I can't help that. Yes, God has a plan and He has given it to the His people. Have you checked out the prophecy section, you will find some articles of that plan. Some have been fulfilled and some are soon to come about. Come Lord Jesus come. We all will then be united and do not have to wonder any more who is right and who is wrong, all will know the truth. The truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. That I am waiting patiently for, I am under the Blood of Christ Luke 22:20 and that is were we are going to stay. Peace amd Love Irene

What I want you to do Irene is to be more specific in how you see I am wrong, not just continue to give me the same old scriptures that give you your understanding. Really how many times do I have to explain this?  I don't care if you disagree with me, I just want you to quote me for a change and specifically show how my statements on scripture are wrong. I don't think that is to much to ask, other people do it all the time. Irene I want you to tell me how you see that I am wrong, I am not looking for you to agree with me.

Irene let me make this VERY CLEAR, I have not gotten upset with you over your belief, it is in your manner of communicating on this forum that can tend to irritate me.

You said, “You talk about the plan of God like only you are called and all that do not belief like you do are not Christian?”

That is rather a strong accusation Irene. Do you really think I believe that I am the ONLY person who believes that they have been called? WOW, once again I'm at a loss for words with that one!

And for the record I have NEVER told anyone that they weren't a Christian because they disagreed with me. I find it kinda funny that you would say that because that's not at all how I think. NOT AT ALL!I have been told before that since I do not believe in the trinity I am not a Christian. I don't stoop to such a level. As a matter of fact I have often considered not calling myself a Christian, because the word is attached to so many lies and vile doctrines I don't want it to be assumed that I believe the same. Sometimes I think I should just call myself something else entirely. The word Christian isn't even found in the bible.

I have stated several times on this forum that what I speak is MY understanding THUS FAR, and what I write is what has come to make the best sense to me given the scriptures. Obviously what people write on this forum is an expression of what they believe is the truth. I don't know of anyone here who has claimed that they have been given the undeniable truth about things.

I believe that your belief in pre-existence is not the truth of Christ so in this manner your understanding is anti-Christ. Any particular belief that is not of the truth of Christ is anti-christ. I don't claim to know the whole truth about Jesus, and thus I am perfectly willing to state that I myself could contain certain ideas about Jesus that are not true, therefore I myself could have beliefs that are anti-christ. Everyone on this forum contains at least some part of truth, even the Pope probably has some things right. I don't see everything so black and white, cut and dry.  The Spirit works in mysterious ways. I don't think that if we were all in agreement that we would appreciate the truth as much. God is working to make us desire it all the more when we don't see eye to eye. Those in disagreement with me have pushed me to read the bible all the more, I am very thankful for that.

Unlike you Irene I believe that all people will be saved, I never once said that you are not under the blood of Christ. Of course that's where you will stay, you and EVERYONE else!

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2009,09:58)

Good post – I agree with almost everything you said.

Hi Martian I respect your understanding of scripture a great deal, and know that I have many many things still to learn.  When you get the chance I would really appreciate your feedback on what things you see differently. Thanks!

[Cindy]

Jodi  I really don't owe you any explanation but I have Arthritis in my Hands and typing for a long post is very hard for me to do. And I will not do so.  Having said that I will take on thing at the time.
Jon 1:1       I believe that the Word is a being that was with God from the very beginning. You do not, right? So does that make me Ant-Christ. No. Anti-Christ is the one that does not believe that Christ ever came in the flesh, and that I do not believe.  Second talking like that, I do not like. That is not like me. Sorry but you sound mean -spiritual  when you accuse me of being Anti-Christ.  And why should I tell you were you are wrong? The Word became flesh and walked among us. But the Word also before He became flesh made all. verse 3 and again in verse 10 that He was in the World and the World was made through Him. Keep in mind that this is not the Father, but rather the Word that became flesh.in verse 14. Sorry Jodi I do not know what else you want from me, I gave you my understanding, and I am not much with going on and on. That is it. Do not expect anything else from me, I had enough at my age I do not need any accusation. Good-night.

[Author]

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