- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Colter @ May 06 2008,08:35) Quote (Jodi @ May 07 2008,03:04) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 30 2008,09:15) 745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.If Yeshua was a preexisting God as Trinitarians believe, this scripture makes no sense whatsoever. If he was God, he would not only have the same Will as the Father, but he would have said that he sent himself.
This scripture says that Yeshua says he came from God, not that he came from being a preexisting Son. If Yeshua did preexist then according to this scripture, he did not come on his own will, but Yah forced him to come. If it was not Yeshua's will to come, then what does that tell us about his preexistence?
We know that Yeshua's corruptible flesh and blood was like ours and it's desire was to serve itself, but Yeshua denied that will, overcoming it with Yah's Spirit working in him. Upon receiving immortality that will was destroyed and Yeshua's will was fully reunited with Yah's.
For those who believe in Yeshua's preexistence, why was his will not united with Yah's when he was in the form of a preexisting Son?
*The verse makes perfect since to me, It was the will of the Father for his divine son to incarnate as a man and live subject to the will of the Father. The human experience is now added to the divine son.The incarnation was a requirement of the Father which lead to the son being given “all power and authority in heaven and on earth”.
The other side of your argument would be, why did God birth a finite divine son by first making him human?
Ultra monotheism left the Jews conceptually impoverished to receive the new revelation that God has a divine son who is our co-creator and now effectively our God.
Colter
Good Morning Colter,So, why was the Divine Son's will not united with Yah's before he came down from heaven?
Colter, I am Yeshua's sister, and when I am resurrected I will be just like him. The only difference we will have in the future on earth is that he will be a king and I wont.
Quote (Jodi @ May 07 2008,04:02) Colter, I am Yeshua's sister, and when I am resurrected I will be just like him. The only difference we will have in the future on earth is that he will be a king and I wont.
Jodi,
You make so many good points.It is true that when we are resurrected we will be like him.
But this idea of being like him begs the question, what is he like?So we are like him on earth (we are flesh and blood), but when we are resurrected and attain our adoption, we will be like him (immortal sons of God).
Jodi, you say that, “The only difference we will have in the future on earth is that he will be king and I wont.” I don't believe that is the only difference. We are related to Jesus, but by adoption. While adoption means family and all rights are given to the adopted children that are extended to the birthed children (indeed we are co-heirs with Christ), there is a difference of blood and relativeness. Jesus is King because he is GOD'S SON. His only born Son.
Consider that if Jesus was just a flesh and bone Son of God, like Adam, his death would mean nothing. In other words, his life would not be able to reconcile anything to God. Any man could have died and paid the price at that rate. But we are told in Ephesians 2:13, “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far awy have been brought near though the blood of Christ.”
It's the blood. It's the relativeness to God that Jesus has. We do not have this. We are adopted.
When we are resurrected, we will be like him in that we will have been reconciled and counted as sons and daughters of God. We will have all rights restored. We will be family. But Jesus will still be the only born son of God. I believe that is why we will worship him and he will be King.
God said that Jesus needed to be made like his brother's in every way – his brother's had flesh and blood and so Jesus had flesh and blood. I don't believe this passage means anything else.
God's Son was born so that we could be adopted. I know I sound like a broken record, but you adopt after your own kind. Jesus was the link (both God and man). Through this Son we are qualified to be God's children. And when we die, we will be like him…….true children and heirs with Jesus.
Quote (Colter @ May 07 2008,07:21) Jesus lived and died for a whole universe, not just for the races of this one world. While the mortals of the realms had salvation even before Jesus lived and died on Urantia,
What is the planet “Urantia”? Did Jesus live there during a different time period? Was he born a baby there, too?Nano, nano!
Mandynot3in1…………Mandy….If we conceder God as the one and (ONLY)true God. Then we must concede God can not recreate Himself, this is impossible for Him to do, so the best He can do is adopt all He creates to be His son's and daughters, and that includes Jesus also.
What difference does it make if God created DNA that was the way He wanted Jesus to look like and implanted it in Mary's womb, or took some dirt and molded Adam, Then took part of Adam's DNA and Made Eve. That's no big deal for God to do.
The only way anything can become a son or Daughter of God, He must first create them, then fell them with Himself via, His spirit presents. It's no difference with Us then Jesus, to God He is exactly as we are going to be. Jesus was adopted as a son also, and because God adopted Him He sent forth His Spirit into His Heart crying abba Father< the only difference is Jesus had the fullness of the spirit in Him, but we shall also. The difference is GOD adopted Him at berth, and kept him from sinning.
God has made no distinctions between us and Jesus, “for God is no respecter of persons”,
Jesus related to God exactly as we are suppose to.The reason i brought Adam and Eve was to show there Birth was a greater miracle then Jesus was and it does say (Adam the Son of GOD).just the way i see it sis……….peace to you and yours………..gene
To all………please don't think i am trying to diminish the work God did through Jesus, because He was reconciling the (whole world) to (HIMSELF) through Jesus the Christ.
love and peace to you all……………..gene
Quote If we conceder God as the one and (ONLY)true God. Then we must concede God can not recreate Himself
God did not recreat himself in his son. Can a human man recreat himself in his offspring?Quote That's no big deal for God to do
You're right – no big deal for him to do, but it would be pointless if he had. He already had been-there-and-done-that, that is why he decided to have another plan. And that plan was to father a Son. One Son, Jesus.Quote Jesus was adopted as a son also
Brother, this is incorrect. Jesus was never adopted – he belonged from the beginning. There are no scriptures that support that Jesus was adopted.Quote The difference is GOD adopted Him at berth, and kept him from sinning.
With all due respect, I see here that you are really wanting to hold on to your point of view and so you are stretching the text. Let me ask, why would God need to adopt a son he fathered? Typically you adopt a child you did not conceive. There was no reason for God to adopt Jesus as he was his son from birth. Jesus is the Son of God.Quote God has made no distinctions between us and Jesus
Again with all due respect, this couldn't be farther from the truth! God made such a distinction between Jesus and us that he sent his holy Spirit to a virgin to cause Jesus to be born. We have earthly fathers. My father's name is Charles. Jesus' father's name is Jehovah. Huge distinction there, bro.Quote (Adam the Son of GOD).
Adam is a son of God as all humans are. But remember that Moses (who is also a son of God through Adam), ruled over the house as a servant………..but Jesus rules over the house as a Son. What do you suppose is the difference in sonship?Quote (Colter @ May 07 2008,09:51) Michael (Jesus) is the name of our creator brother, he is head of 10 million inhabited worlds. “I have sheep not of this fold, I must bring them also”. There is a headquater world where Michael came from and returned to.
Okaaaaaay.Wow.
Hey, you know, why not? It's a theory, right?
not3in1……Mandy this thing of adoption is quite complex, but we have to remember God,cannot
recreate Himself and no where does it say Jesus' DNA was any different then ours, in fact it says he was in every way like us. No where does it give exception to this, Jesus' body was a temple or house where God Dwelt and cohabited with Him the only difference is he had the (FULLNESS) of the Spirit in Him, We also will or else how can we ever possibly come to the full stature of Christ. When we are born of the fullness of the spirit in the resurrection there will be no difference between Us and Jesus at all, for we will see him (as he is) Just like Him in every way.In my humble (howbeit) accurate opinion
….love to you and yours………..geneHey bro Gene,
You make me laugh (your humble and accurate opinion).
You may be right, bro. Who really knows? But it just doesn't seem completely clear to me.Quote no where does it say Jesus' DNA was any different then ours, in fact it says he was in every way like us.
You're right, it doesn't say those exact words however, it does tell us that God is the father of Jesus. Jesus was born of a women like we are. I think it is safe to assume that God contributed to his kid? Otherwise the whole virgin birth thing doesn't make sense.Quote for we will see him (as he is) Just like Him in every way.
Is this what the scripture says? That we will be “like him in every way”?Not3in1…….No scripture doesn't specifically say it that way, however it does imply it. “for we shall see Him (AS) He is”, I guess i am being like the rest of the (preexistences) here, saying something that is not specifically said, but could be implied if we Just force the text a little.
Mandy your logic is good and adds soundness to our discussions on this site, keep up the good work.
love and peace to you and all yours……………gene
Gene said,
Quote If we conceder God as the one and (ONLY)true God. Then we must concede God can not recreate Himself
Mandy said,Quote God did not recreat himself in his son. Can a human man recreat himself in his offspring?
Mandy, obviously when we have a child they are not our clone. A human father's son is a human. A God Father's son IS NOT a god! Yah's Son was a human.Gene said,
Quote Jesus was adopted as a son also
Mandy said,Quote Brother, this is incorrect. Jesus was never adopted – he belonged from the beginning. There are no scriptures that support that Jesus was adopted.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.We are heirs with Christ in immortality if our spirit is led by Yah's Spirit. The ADOPTION here is not as a son, but as sons we receive the adoption of immortality. Adam was a son of God he was BEGOTTEN of Yah. Adam was created as Yeshua was created, by the power of Yah into a human being.
Romans 8:14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
We are all Yah's children through Adam, who came forth and was begotten by Yah. But sin and death have separated us from Yah, so we are only children until death. To be a true child, an eternal child we must take on His character. Man takes on Yah's character through the example we see in Christ, which is Yah's Spirit leading the Son of Man into righteousness. Yeshua can then be called the only begotten son because he was not deserving of death, and therefore was never separated as we are. Yeshua was a Son because sin never separated him from the Father.
So as verse 14 states those that are led by the Spirit of Yah are his children. Christ's life demonstrates to us then, how he is considered the only begotten.
Gene said,
Quote The difference is GOD adopted Him at berth, and kept him from sinning.
Mandy said,Quote With all due respect, I see here that you are really wanting to hold on to your point of view and so you are stretching the text. Let me ask, why would God need to adopt a son he fathered? Typically you adopt a child you did not conceive. There was no reason for God to adopt Jesus as he was his son from birth. Jesus is the Son of God.
Adoption in scripture has nothing to do with the concept you are thinking Mandy, where people go to an orphanage and adopt a child. Our adoption is represented as taking on eternal life.Ro 8:23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting — the redemption of our body;
Notice how we receive this adoption of immortality… it is through being given the first fruit of Yah's Spirit, of whom Yeshua was firstborn of. Yeshua took on immortality because the Spirit of Yah led him into righteousness and not into a son of sin and death.
Romans tells us what the adoption stands for, which is eternal life. This should then be applied to understand Galatians and Ephisians-
Ga 4:5 that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive;
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Sons of Yah, as Romans 8 tells us, occurs through not being adopted, but by being led by Yah's Spirit. Yeshua was lead by Yah's Spirit and thus he is said to be the firstborn from the dead. Because of Yah and His proven work in mankind through Yeshua, we also will be raised from the dead and will adopt immortality.
Gene said,
Quote God has made no distinctions between us and Jesus
Mandy said,Quote Again with all due respect, this couldn't be farther from the truth! God made such a distinction between Jesus and us that he sent his holy Spirit to a virgin to cause Jesus to be born. We have earthly fathers. My father's name is Charles. Jesus' father's name is Jehovah. Huge distinction there, bro.
Mandy, listen to yourself sister. You don't think it was the Holy Spirit of Yah that created Adam? I would think that according to your way of thinking Adam would be 100% God because he did not have a mother, but came solely from Yah! You said on the conception thread, “Doesn't the father provide the seed by which a new individual is made? Yes fathers provide the seed, but all seeds are a product of Yah's creation. Honestly Mandy, your father Charles played a very limited role in your existence.The distinction made between Yeshua and us is that he was led fully by the Spirit and we are not.
Gene said,
Quote (Adam the Son of GOD).
Mandy said,Quote Adam is a son of God as all humans are. But remember that Moses (who is also a son of God through Adam), ruled over the house as a servant………..but Jesus rules over the house as a Son. What do you suppose is the difference in sonship? Isn't it not obvious, isn't it what the whole message of the bible is trying to tell us, that we need Yah in every way. Yeshua was a son because Yah gave Himself to him in the fullness of His Spirit.
Matthew 12:17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, 18 `Lo, My servant, whom I did choose, My beloved, in whom My soul did delight, I will put My Spirit upon him, and judgment to the nations he shall declare,
Yeshua is indeed referred to as Yah's servant, and he is a Son because he was foreordained to be given Yah's Spirit that would work unto righteousness.
Romans 8:29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did f
ore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might
be first-born among many brethren;Yeshua is the firstborn, meaning there are other brothers and sisters to follow. What is Yeshua the first to be born of? He is the first human to be born led by the fullness of Yah's Spirit, which then leads itself to immortality.
See the problem for me Mandy with your understanding is that Yeshua is Yah's example of what He can accomplish in man. If Yeshua was not fully like me then he is no longer that example. Yah will have proved not what he can accomplish in man but with some sort of half breed god. To me this belief shows a little bit of failure on Yah’s part, where He has to make a half breed human in order to save humans? No, He took a man and kept him righteous through His Spirit in order to redeem man.
Peace and love, Jodi
Quote Mandy, obviously when we have a child they are not our clone. A human father's son is a human. A God Father's son IS NOT a god! Yah's Son was a human.
Of course if God had a son with another Goddess, then the child would be considered a God. But Yah considered Mary and his holy spirit covered her and she gave birth to Jesus. It only stands to reason that if God had a son via a women, that his son would be a divine man.If you consider that Jesus is only man, then you deny Yah's contribution. He is the Daddy, after all.
Quote Adam was created as Yeshua was created, by the power of Yah into a human being. Romans 8:14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
Adam was not conceived through the holy spirit and given birth. I'm sorry, it is not the same. There is a reason that Jesus is considered the only begotten Son of God. There is a reason that Jesus is his Father's representative and is running his business for him. Adam got to name the animals, sure, but Jesus was in mind when the animals were being created (big difference).Quote Yeshua can then be called the only begotten son because he was not deserving of death, and therefore was never separated as we are. Yeshua was a Son because sin never separated him from the Father.
This sounds good, but it's much too tidy for me. Scripture in fact does not say that Jesus is God's Son because he never sinned, Jesus is God's Son at birth – the angels declared it – the Magi worshiped the King that was born!Quote Romans tells us what the adoption stands for, which is eternal life.
I agree with you in that our adoption means we gain immortality as Jesus has already. We then receive the goal of our faith – salvation. We are adopted into God's family and we are true heirs with Christ.Quote Mandy, listen to yourself sister. You don't think it was the Holy Spirit of Yah that created Adam? I would think that according to your way of thinking Adam would be 100% God because he did not have a mother, but came solely from Yah! You said on the conception thread, “Doesn't the father provide the seed by which a new individual is made? Yes fathers provide the seed, but all seeds are a product of Yah's creation. Honestly Mandy, your father Charles played a very limited role in your existence. The distinction made between Yeshua and us is that he was led fully by the Spirit and we are not.
Of course I disagree. Let me ask you something Jodi, what do you think the whole purpose of the virgin birth was? Honestly, if you believe that Jesus is strictly a human son why did God bother having Jesus go through a conception, gestation period, pregnancy, labor and birth? An example of what we understand as a way to bring a new individual into the world? Why would he do that? Why would he call himself the Father of Jesus? Why would the disciples understand that Jesus' father was God and not Jo? What was all that for anyway? Just to confuse them?Sometimes I think folks are too invested in their own ideas to believe the simplicity of the gospels. God's holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Jesus is said to be God's only Son. It's not too much of a stretch to just believe that.
Quote Yeshua is indeed referred to as Yah's servant, and he is a Son because he was foreordained to be given Yah's Spirit that would work unto righteousness.
Again, sounds good, but then what do we do with the whole virgin birth thing? It means something, Jodi. It wasn't just a step in the process to bring about this prophet of God. God didn't want just another prophet……he wanted his boy! He knew his own boy would set things straight.I'll ask it again, what is the difference between Adam/Moses sonship and that of Jesus'? Is it truly just that God gave his spirit in full to Jesus? Couldn't have God just done that to any man? Apparently not, because Jesus was conceived and born and will be crowned!
Jodi writes:
See the problem for me Mandy with your understanding is that Yeshua is Yah's example of what He can accomplish in man. If Yeshua was not fully like me then he is no longer that example. Yah will have proved not what he can accomplish in man but with some sort of half breed god. To me this belief shows a little bit of failure on Yah’s part, where He has to make a half breed human in order to save humans? No, He took a man and kept him righteous through His Spirit in order to redeem man.I respond (sorry the quote thing didn't work):
What God accomplished in Jesus is something that he cannot accomplish with you and me. For all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Paul says the good we want to do, we don't do. Still, we press on towards the prize. Why? Because Jesus overcame the world! We will only overcome the world when we receive our salvation. We certainly cannot overcome the world now – not until death is swallowed-up in victory. Jesus will accomplish this for us.We are to strive to walk as Jesus did – he is our example. But what God accomplished because of Jesus cannot be duplicated or repeated. Why? Jesus is his only begotten Son. His One and Only……
Your concern is that Jesus is no longer that example to us if he is not exactly like us, but I don't agree. Your concern is that God will not have accomplished his work in man but in some sort of half-breed, I do agree. If God were able to accomplish his goals with man only then Jesus would not have needed to be born! Any man would have fit the bill, right?
Jesus is our example because his is one with God in spirit and says that we are also! Because of Jesus, God can and does work in our lives through his precious holy spirit that binds us all.
No failure on God's part. Us humans could not save ourselves. So why would he send another human to try again? Adam failed, remember? God showed us his love in that he sent his Son.
Take care Jodi,
MandyWe are taking a vacation! Yahoo!
I will be gone until next week.
Jodi, Irene, Charity, Kathi – HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ May 07 2008,17:05) We are taking a vacation! Yahoo! I will be gone until next week.
Jodi, Irene, Charity, Kathi – HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!
Love,
Mandy
MandyHave a safe trip.
Happy Mothers day.
We also will be traveling about 2700 miles by car from Thursday this week till Sunday the following.
Blessings!
Keith
ROAD TRIP!
I love those! Drive safe.
We're flying down to San Diego and I just hate to fly. But the kids love it and so hopefully they will distract me enought to chill out.
Have fun!
MandyMandy! Have a nice Vacation. I loved flying. We went to Germany several times. Those were the best times of our lives. Happy Mothers Day to you too.
Peace and Love IreneTo all you MOM”S, have a happy mothers day!. A MOM is truly a special person, i know my MOM was.
peace and love to you all……………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 08 2008,02:42) WJ………why not take the USS Enterprise, , just kidding, Have a Safe trip WJ.
GB That was good. I just realized my avatar fits.I wish I could take the Enterprise, I hate driving.
But thanks, I appreciate your comment.
Blessings!
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 06 2008,22:01) Quote Mandy, obviously when we have a child they are not our clone. A human father's son is a human. A God Father's son IS NOT a god! Yah's Son was a human.
Of course if God had a son with another Goddess, then the child would be considered a God. But Yah considered Mary and his holy spirit covered her and she gave birth to Jesus. It only stands to reason that if God had a son via a women, that his son would be a divine man.If you consider that Jesus is only man, then you deny Yah's contribution. He is the Daddy, after all.
Quote Adam was created as Yeshua was created, by the power of Yah into a human being. Romans 8:14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
Adam was not conceived through the holy spirit and given birth. I'm sorry, it is not the same. There is a reason that Jesus is considered the only begotten Son of God. There is a reason that Jesus is his Father's representative and is running his business for him. Adam got to name the animals, sure, but Jesus was in mind when the animals were being created (big difference).Quote Yeshua can then be called the only begotten son because he was not deserving of death, and therefore was never separated as we are. Yeshua was a Son because sin never separated him from the Father.
This sounds good, but it's much too tidy for me. Scripture in fact does not say that Jesus is God's Son because he never sinned, Jesus is God's Son at birth – the angels declared it – the Magi worshiped the King that was born!Quote Romans tells us what the adoption stands for, which is eternal life.
I agree with you in that our adoption means we gain immortality as Jesus has already. We then receive the goal of our faith – salvation. We are adopted into God's family and we are true heirs with Christ.Quote Mandy, listen to yourself sister. You don't think it was the Holy Spirit of Yah that created Adam? I would think that according to your way of thinking Adam would be 100% God because he did not have a mother, but came solely from Yah! You said on the conception thread, “Doesn't the father provide the seed by which a new individual is made? Yes fathers provide the seed, but all seeds are a product of Yah's creation. Honestly Mandy, your father Charles played a very limited role in your existence. The distinction made between Yeshua and us is that he was led fully by the Spirit and we are not.
Of course I disagree. Let me ask you something Jodi, what do you think the whole purpose of the virgin birth was? Honestly, if you believe that Jesus is strictly a human son why did God bother having Jesus go through a conception, gestation period, pregnancy, labor and birth? An example of what we understand as a way to bring a new individual into the world? Why would he do that? Why would he call himself the Father of Jesus? Why would the disciples understand that Jesus' father was God and not Jo? What was all that for anyway? Just to confuse them?Sometimes I think folks are too invested in their own ideas to believe the simplicity of the gospels. God's holy spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Jesus is said to be God's only Son. It's not too much of a stretch to just believe that.
Quote Yeshua is indeed referred to as Yah's servant, and he is a Son because he was foreordained to be given Yah's Spirit that would work unto righteousness.
Again, sounds good, but then what do we do with the whole virgin birth thing? It means something, Jodi. It wasn't just a step in the process to bring about this prophet of God. God didn't want just another prophet……he wanted his boy! He knew his own boy would set things straight.I'll ask it again, what is the difference between Adam/Moses sonship and that of Jesus'? Is it truly just that God gave his spirit in full to Jesus? Couldn't have God just done that to any man? Apparently not, because Jesus was conceived and born and will be crowned!
Jodi writes:
See the problem for me Mandy with your understanding is that Yeshua is Yah's example of what He can accomplish in man. If Yeshua was not fully like me then he is no longer that example. Yah will have proved not what he can accomplish in man but with some sort of half breed god. To me this belief shows a little bit of failure on Yah’s part, where He has to make a half breed human in order to save humans? No, He took a man and kept him righteous through His Spirit in order to redeem man.I respond (sorry the quote thing didn't work):
What God accomplished in Jesus is something that he cannot accomplish with you and me. For all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Paul says the good we want to do, we don't do. Still, we press on towards the prize. Why? Because Jesus overcame the world! We will only overcome the world when we receive our salvation. We certainly cannot overcome the world now – not until death is swallowed-up in victory. Jesus will accomplish this for us.We are to strive to walk as Jesus did – he is our example. But what God accomplished because of Jesus cannot be duplicated or repeated. Why? Jesus is his only begotten Son. His One and Only……
Your concern is that Jesus is no longer that example to us if he is not exactly like us, but I don't agree. Your concern is that God will not have accomplished his work in man but in some sort of half-breed, I do agree. If God were able to accomplish his goals with man only then Jesus would not have needed to be born! Any man would have fit the bill, right?
Jesus is our example because his is one with God in spirit and says that we are also! Because of Jesus, God can and does work in our lives through his precious holy spirit that binds us all.
No failure on God's part. Us humans could not save ourselves. So why would he send another human to try again? Adam failed, remember? God showed us his love in that he sent his Son.
Take care Jodi,
Mandy
Luke 1:31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign
over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” 34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.I believe this is pretty clear, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary will have a human son, whom Yah will CALL His Son. Why will Yah call him His son, simple, because Yah foreknew that Yeshua would be sinless and gain immortality, making him the firstborn of many children. Yeshua is Yah’s son in relation to the foreknowledge of his righteousness. How and why was Yeshua righteous, not because he was part God, but because he was led by Yah’s Spirit. This tells us that if we allow Yah to guide our spirit we can be sisters with Christ.
Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Through the Holy Spirit Mary would have a son, who would be in every way like us, a human being.
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Joseph thought that Mary had been unfaithful, but the angel tells him that the child did not come from another man, but from the power of the Holy Spirit.
Mt 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
“When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, WHICH SHALL PROCEED OUT OF THY BOWELS, and I will establish his kingdom for ever. I WILL BE HIS FATHER, and he SHALL BE My son (2 Sam. 7:12-14).I believe I have made this point before. The Jews understood that the Messiah would be a Son unto God not because he would be a half breed, but because he would be great in the eyes of God.
Mandy, if Yeshua was great and righteous because he was part literally God, then why was it necessary for the Holy Spirit to descend on him when he was older, just before his ministry?
Lu 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,
Yeshua throughout his life has the Holy Spirit descending on him leading him. Yeshua needs the Holy Spirit continually working with him. What benefit was given to Yeshua by being Yah’s literal god child, if he continually needed to be led by the Holy Spirit after his birth?
Romans 5:11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned– 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
These scriptures show me what I was trying to get at in my last post which is, BY MAN Yah has saved man, not by a half god, did Yah save man. Another problem for me with your idea about the substance of Yeshua is that Yah is an eternal being, so would that make part of Yeshua eternal too? If we are suppose to believe that Yeshua is part God then I believe that takes away from the significance of his death. If someone is part god, then it is easy to see why he could be raised from the dead. Our promise is to be raised as he was raised.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
Everything comes full circle. Because of Adam’s failure the world was brought into the realization that man needs Yah. Because of Yah’s work in Yeshua we are brought into the realization that Yah can indeed make MAN righteous. By man, sin came, by man, sin is removed. Do you understand what firstfruits represents? Christ was a firstfruit not because he was a half god, but because he was the first to be given the full portion of Yah’s Spirit, and the only person to be given it from the time of his conception. This is how Yeshua is special this is why in the bible it is said he is the only begotten. Prior to Yeshua, and after Yeshua, there was and never will be any other human who will have had the fullness of the Spirit working in them from the time of their conception.
You must have forgotten, it has been awhile since we discussed why Yeshua had to be born of a virgin of the descendant of David. Yah put a curse on King Solomon’s descendents, who were the Royal line of the kingdom. Yeshua according to prophecy would be the flesh and blood of David, so in Luke we see through Joseph as son of Eli, by being a son in law, that Yeshua is indeed David’s blood through the descendents of his son Nathan. Yeshua could not be of the blood of Joseph’s descendent Jeconiah, which we see in the genealogy of Joseph in Matthew. The blood of the Royal line was cursed, however Yeshua being the adopted son of Joseph gives Yeshua the right to be King. Yeshua could be King according to the Jews because of his adoption into the Royal line, and according to Yah because he did not have the cursed blood. Yeshua restores the Royal line of king Solomon, and the prophecy that Yeshua would be of the blood of David and born of a virgin is fulfilled!
So it is not really confusing at all if you dig into the bible you find a very interesting package, a present of truth as to why the virgin birth was necessary.
Depending on when you read this Mandy, hope you have a nice trip, or hope you had a nice trip.
Peace and love, Jodi
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
