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Quote (gollamudi @ May 02 2008,22:45) He didn't have any advantage in the flesh other than he was fathered by the only True God
Hi Adam,You say, “…..other than he was fathered by the only true God.”
And that is not an advantage? I think it is. Why? Because I was not fathered by the only true God. And if I wasn't fathered by God, but Jesus was, wouldnt' it be logical to think there is a difference between Jesus and us?
That difference is what's up for debate, in my opinion.
Good to hear from you,
MandyQuote (Gene Balthrop @ May 03 2008,03:46) seek and you will find……if you translate the above verses ptr 745 gave from the original Hebrew translation according to Jeff Benner mechanical translation of Genesis they would read like this. Gen 2:4…> these are the generations of the heavens and earth when they were created, in the day (HE exists with Powers) made the earth heavens,
Gen 2:7…> And (He exists with powers) molded man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the wind of life, and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:9…> And out of the ground made (He Exists with powers) to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of Knowledge of good (AND) Evil.
Gen 2:19 .> And out of the ground (He Exists with powers) formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air: and brought Them into Adam to see what he would call them; and what so ever Adam called every living creature, that was the mane thereof.
Gen 2:22.> And the rib, which the (He Exist with Powers) had taken from, man He made a woman, and brought her unto the man.
The word LORD < is (He Exists) The word GOD < (is Powers) another words (HE Exist with Powers), that's the way the original Hebrews would have perceived it.
This is not even mentioning all the scriptures in Isaiah that clearly show that the Lord God did all the creating by His self, he plainly said that and that there is none other God except Him . So Jesus was right he said (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD.
The whole concept of the trinity and preexistence is false teachings created by false Christanity.
IMO……..gene
Yes of course,lets believe the apologetic words of an apologist like Mr Benner who disagree with 100s of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic scholars of the many english translations today.
Can somebody please show me where his credentials are? Does he have any degrees in the Hebrew and Greek languages?
I cant seem to find anything on this guy escept that he has compiled info based on his own studies.
“To believe Jesus has not come in the flesh, meaning preexistence, is false doctine and false Christianity”.
See, any body can make this statement when someone doesn't agree with them.
The bible has many scriptures that show Jesus came down from heaven.
KJV
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
King James Version 1611, 1769NKJV – Jhn 6:38 – “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas NelsonNLT – Jhn 6:38 – For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do what I want.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable TrustNIV – Jhn 6:38 – For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible SocietyESV – Jhn 6:38 – “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesNASB – Jhn 6:38 – “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Jhn 6:38 – For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Jhn 6:38 – For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
American Standard Version 1901 InfoYoung – Jhn 6:38 – because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me.
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby – Jhn 6:38 – For I am come down from heaven, not that I should do *my* will, but the will of him that has sent me.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 InfoWebster – Jhn 6:38 – For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Noah Webster Version 1833 InfoHNV – Jhn 6:38 – For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 InfoThis is only one of many.
It doesn't get any plainer than this.
W.j. Thank you and I agree. It does not get any plainer. But then I thought Col. 1:15-18 was clear too and all turned it around. Lets just see.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 03 2008,05:37) W.j. Thank you and I agree. It does not get any plainer. But then I thought Col. 1:15-18 was clear too and all turned it around. Lets just see. Peace and Love Mrs.
MrsWatch out there.
You are agreeing with a Trinitarian. You can't do that of course because Trinitarians are always wrong.
Be careful, you may be labeled for this.
Its funny because Unitarians, Arians and antitrinitarians believe in Catholic doctrines also.
RCC believes Jesus died, was buried and rose again and ascended.
I guess that means that anybody who believes those things are part of the “Whore”?
Come out of her.
Jhn 6:38 – For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
So WJ and Mrs., what part of the preexisting Son of God, came down to earth?
The Holy Spirit came unto Mary and she conceived a human baby. Are you saying that Yeshua is the Holy Spirit?
You want to take verse 38 literally, then tell me what literal part of the preexisting Son came down to become Yeshua of Nazareth?
What WE KNOW came down from heaven was the fullfillment of Yah's plan. What we know that came down from heaven was Yah's Spirit living and working in Yeshua.
What we do know is the details to the conception and birth of Yeshua, none of which state anything about a preexisting Son coming down to transform into a human baby.
WJ…… it seems your dandref is up again. But to clearify a point, there is no (Mechanical) translations, Mr Benner is the First person to do it as far as i know . Let see if there is creditablity to what He says even by your so called 200 scholars.
When Moses ask who should i say sent me, God said tell them (I AM ,THAT I AM ) sent you. Now let's amalize the word I am , doesn't it mean the same as (I exist )….. also notice God bid not say (I exist and another I exists also with me also,) as trinitarians want us to believe. You know as well as I the Hebrews, only believed in ONE GOD and no other, in fact doesn't say (Hear O Israel the Lord our God is ONE Lord), not two or three trinune beings or essences as trinitarians espouse.
Now ss God told Moses to use the Phrase I exist or I am, they are one in the same word right. I exist therefore i am is a phrase still used.
So with that being said Mr. Benner and the Scholars seem to agree on this, it's you who is not agreeing with them. even your oun 200 scholars.As far as your pun about even others believing in some RCC doctrines you are forgetting something> “even Satan apperas as a angle of light”, right. As one person i heard say, 99% 0f what a person say's could be right, but it's that 1% that kill you. So it is with religions.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,05:58) Quote (seek and you will find @ May 03 2008,05:37) W.j. Thank you and I agree. It does not get any plainer. But then I thought Col. 1:15-18 was clear too and all turned it around. Lets just see. Peace and Love Mrs.
MrsWatch out there.
You are agreeing with a Trinitarian. You can't do that of course because Trinitarians are always wrong.
Be careful, you may be labeled for this.
Its funny because Unitarians, Arians and antitrinitarians believe in Catholic doctrines also.
RCC believes Jesus died, was buried and rose again and ascended.
I guess that means that anybody who believes those things are part of the “Whore”?
Come out of her.
Hey Keith and Irene,In my opinion, believing in preexistence does go hand-in-hand with the Trinity doctrine.
Take care
Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04) What we do know is the details to the conception and birth of Yeshua, none of which state anything about a preexisting Son coming down to transform into a human baby.
Absolutely.And we do also know that Jesus “came down from heaven”, we also know that he “came from God”.
God is in heaven.
Jesus came from God. It stands to reason that most son's “come from” their Dads, does it not?
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 03 2008,09:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,05:58) Quote (seek and you will find @ May 03 2008,05:37) W.j. Thank you and I agree. It does not get any plainer. But then I thought Col. 1:15-18 was clear too and all turned it around. Lets just see. Peace and Love Mrs.
MrsWatch out there.
You are agreeing with a Trinitarian. You can't do that of course because Trinitarians are always wrong.
Be careful, you may be labeled for this.
Its funny because Unitarians, Arians and antitrinitarians believe in Catholic doctrines also.
RCC believes Jesus died, was buried and rose again and ascended.
I guess that means that anybody who believes those things are part of the “Whore”?
Come out of her.
Hey Keith and Irene,In my opinion, believing in preexistence does go hand-in-hand with the Trinity doctrine.
Take care
MandyThen you will need to speak to lightenup, NH, t8, Mrs, David, and many others who are not Trinitarians!
It is only the Unitarians who reject preexistence.
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,09:55) Then you will need to speak to lightenup, NH, t8, Mrs, David, and many others who are not Trinitarians! It is only the Unitarians who reject preexistence.
It's interesting that you would point this out.All that you mentioned believe some form of “Jesus was someone different before his birth.”
It's really a form of incarnation versus true birth, in my opinion (speaking from a non-trinitarian view).
David believes Jesus was Micheal, Nick and t8 believe Jesus was a spirit son, I'm not sure what LU believes yet, and Irene believes along the same lines as Nick but slightly different.
All of these forms, when combined with Mary at conception, CHANGE by her contribution. In other words, Michael was fused together with Mary's DNA, as was the spirit son that God beget alone, and so on.
Preexistence puts mud in the waters. Unless of course, you are a trinitarian. To me, that is the only preexistent story that makes sense (and I use that term lightly).
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,05:58)
Its funny because Unitarians, Arians and antitrinitarians believe in Catholic doctrines also.RCC believes Jesus died, was buried and rose again and ascended.
I guess that means that anybody who believes those things are part of the “Whore”?
Come out of her.
Yeah but they even screwed that up too. How many days and nights did Jesus say he would be dead and in the heart of the earth?
Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.How long does the RCC and all the churches that came out of her teach? Friday -> Sunday morning, not quite three days and three nights is it, and they base their celebrations around these days. They, along with these celebrations of Easter, are denying the very sign that Jesus said would prove he was the messiah. But it doesn't, we're still celebrating Jesus, right? Wrong, they're celebrating a false Jesus, just as many celebrate false gods, is that okay too?
And that brings up another question: How can somebody who is immortal lay down their body as a sacrifice for your sins, be dead for three days and three nights, and need to be raised from the dead? How can somebody who is immortal die? They can't, Jesus at this point was not yet immortal, not until his resurrection, so how can somebody who is not immortal have pre-existed the creation of the universe? Can somebody who is immortal temporarily give up immortality? Not quite immortality then is it?
People who believe in the pre-existence of Jesus have to rely on obscure verse such as “he cam down from heaven” or “he was first born of creation”, verse which are speaking spirutal concepts, yet reject the plain and abvious verses that stand out and are the part of the core reasons for Jesus first coming on the earth in the first place, to DIE and be resurrected by his Father.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 03 2008,10:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,09:55) Then you will need to speak to lightenup, NH, t8, Mrs, David, and many others who are not Trinitarians! It is only the Unitarians who reject preexistence.
It's interesting that you would point this out.All that you mentioned believe some form of “Jesus was someone different before his birth.”
It's really a form of incarnation versus true birth, in my opinion (speaking from a non-trinitarian view).
David believes Jesus was Micheal, Nick and t8 believe Jesus was a spirit son, I'm not sure what LU believes yet, and Irene believes along the same lines as Nick but slightly different.
All of these forms, when combined with Mary at conception, CHANGE by her contribution. In other words, Michael was fused together with Mary's DNA, as was the spirit son that God beget alone, and so on.
Preexistence puts mud in the waters. Unless of course, you are a trinitarian. To me, that is the only preexistent story that makes sense (and I use that term lightly).
t8 believes that he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. So I guess that if he is not before all things, then did an angel hold all things together?t8 believes that through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So if he wasn't there, then nothing was made. Yet many things were made and long before 2000 years ago too.
t8 believes that Jesus had God's nature, but did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! Then God exalted him to the highest place and eventually that all will confess that Yeshua is lord.
Quote (t8 @ May 04 2008,00:06) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 03 2008,10:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,09:55) Then you will need to speak to lightenup, NH, t8, Mrs, David, and many others who are not Trinitarians! It is only the Unitarians who reject preexistence.
It's interesting that you would point this out.All that you mentioned believe some form of “Jesus was someone different before his birth.”
It's really a form of incarnation versus true birth, in my opinion (speaking from a non-trinitarian view).
David believes Jesus was Micheal, Nick and t8 believe Jesus was a spirit son, I'm not sure what LU believes yet, and Irene believes along the same lines as Nick but slightly different.
All of these forms, when combined with Mary at conception, CHANGE by her contribution. In other words, Michael was fused together with Mary's DNA, as was the spirit son that God beget alone, and so on.
Preexistence puts mud in the waters. Unless of course, you are a trinitarian. To me, that is the only preexistent story that makes sense (and I use that term lightly).
t8 believes that he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. So I guess that if he is not before all things, then did an angel hold all things together?t8 believes that through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So if he wasn't there, then nothing was made. Yet many things were made and long before 2000 years ago too.
t8 believes that Jesus had God's nature, but did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! Then God exalted him to the highest place and eventually that all will confess that Yeshua is lord.
Is it also fair to say that you believe God beget Jesus alone, in heaven, prior to his birth? And that he is indeed a “spirit son”?I know Nick believes this, it is recorded many times over. I had thought you two agreed on that score? I'll have to do some research and see. If I am incorrect, please forgive me.
If he was begotton before the worlds….what would that make him? Certainly a pre-cursor to the “Jesus” we know who was born to Mary (in my opinion).
Hey, good to see you t8!
MandyQuote (t8 @ May 03 2008,08:06) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 03 2008,10:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,09:55) Then you will need to speak to lightenup, NH, t8, Mrs, David, and many others who are not Trinitarians! It is only the Unitarians who reject preexistence.
It's interesting that you would point this out.All that you mentioned believe some form of “Jesus was someone different before his birth.”
It's really a form of incarnation versus true birth, in my opinion (speaking from a non-trinitarian view).
David believes Jesus was Micheal, Nick and t8 believe Jesus was a spirit son, I'm not sure what LU believes yet, and Irene believes along the same lines as Nick but slightly different.
All of these forms, when combined with Mary at conception, CHANGE by her contribution. In other words, Michael was fused together with Mary's DNA, as was the spirit son that God beget alone, and so on.
Preexistence puts mud in the waters. Unless of course, you are a trinitarian. To me, that is the only preexistent story that makes sense (and I use that term lightly).
t8 believes that he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. So I guess that if he is not before all things, then did an angel hold all things together?t8 believes that through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So if he wasn't there, then nothing was made. Yet many things were made and long before 2000 years ago too.
t8 believes that Jesus had God's nature, but did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! Then God exalted him to the highest place and eventually that all will confess that Yeshua is lord.
Hi t8,
When I found Heaven.net and read your writings I felt a sense of relief. I found another person that I was like-minded with. I agree with everything that you have said in this post and I rejoice with that. Thank you for having this site and for coming back from wherever you were.To all who would care to know more about what I believe:
I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son.
The Father is the Most High and the Son is from Him and not equal to Him.
I believe that the Son didn't always exist but was the only one born directly of God before the foundation of the world as the Most High God's only begotten living heavenly son.
I believe that in the Son's beginning, He was empty but became filled with all the fullness of God.
I also believe the Son to be the literal Spiritual Light that exposes the truth to mankind and visibly represents His Father, as a heavenly being that can take on different forms.
I believe that the Son took on flesh, even emptied Himself and humbled Himself in a way necessary to become like man, even a baby.
I believe that the Son became a bondservant and was sacrificed and died for man's sins, and then rose again to be the first to return to the Father of all the dead.
I believe that the Son is the Head of the church and is worthy as I worship and praise Him as my Lord which ultimately gives pleasure, worship and praise to His/my Father.
These beliefs are mine but of course do not completely include everything I believe about the Son of God and the Most High God.
Blessings!
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son.There cannot be two Yahweh's
ISAIAH 455 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.The person speaking here, Yahweh, says there is none else.
Quote (Ptr745 @ May 03 2008,16:49) Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son.There cannot be two Yahweh's
ISAIAH 455 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.The person speaking here, Yahweh, says there is none else.
I totally agree that there is no one else as a Most High God, it is Yahweh the Father of Christ. And there is also no one else like His only begotten son,Yahweh the son of the Most High God, either. Both are unique and the Most High is exactly that-the most high God and there is no other. He is over His Son and all things.Blessings!
Hi Kathi,
Thanks for sharing all that you believe.
I will not pick a part your belief system. Suffice it to say that we do not agree with one another. I do not believe that Mary was just a flesh-factory that allowed Jesus to don skin, but that she actually contributed to her son and added her DNA. This is true conception and birth. Otherwise, why would God even bother to have his son go through this process? Why not just “beam him down”?
That being said though, I can see where the scriptures point towards your belief. I also see where they point towards mine. Nothing is, “clear” as some are led to believe. Therefore, I truly cannot find fault with your belief other than to say we do not agree and I see it a bit different, which I have shared.
Take care,
MandyQuote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04) Jhn 6:38 – For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. So WJ and Mrs., what part of the preexisting Son of God, came down to earth?
That’s easy.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Phil 2:6-8)
What is the form of God? Jesus says, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
The basic nature of God is Spirit; however that is not all he is.
The definition of nature is…
1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : ESSENCE
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natureJesus was “Spirit” just like the Father! In fact the very nature and essence of Jesus was and is God.
The NIV reads…
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (held on to). (Phil 2:6)
John understood the nature of Jesus before the incarnation.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
More on this here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375I believe John borrowed the term “Logos” the Word from Rev 19:13.
Many scholars believe the gospel of John was written about 20 years after he saw Jesus in Revelation 19:13.John ascribed the name “Logos” to Jesus because he is the very “essence” of all that the living Word of God is. In fact all the Word of the Father proceeds by, through and from Jesus. Jesus is not merely a spoken word or a thought or a plan. For all things were and are upheld by that word.
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Yeshua's) power… (Heb 1:3)
Also everything consist in and by him, Jesus.
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17)
The living Word, the Words of the Father belong to Jesus, and the Words of Jesus belong to the Father. The Father speaks nothing apart from Jesus and Jesus speaks nothing apart from the Father. They are one and cannot be separated.
Men want to confuse the nature of Jesus by confusing the words “By”, and “Through” or “In”. For example every thing Jesus does is in, by and through the Father. Yet everything the Father does is in, by and through Jesus.
The Greek word “Dia” can be interpreted “By” or “Through” or “In”.
It is the same word that is used here…
For of him, and through (Dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:36)
This verse in its context could mean the Father or Jesus. Since the NT writers almost always used the word (Kuios) or Lord speaking of Jesus then evidence could lean more to Jesus in this passage because of Romans 11:34.
Also Paul uses the same word “Dia” in 1 Cor. 8:6 ascribing attributes of God to Jesus.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by (Dia) whom are all things, and we by (Dia) him.
It’s astounding that Paul would ascribe these attributes in the same breath to Jesus as he describes the Father. To the Hebrew mind to elevate Jesus with attributes of God in this fashion would be blasphemous.
Either way, if it is the Father then we see that all things were of him and through him and to him. If it is Jesus then all things are of him and through him and to him. They are one.
Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04) The Holy Spirit came unto Mary and she conceived a human baby. Are you saying that Yeshua is the Holy Spirit?
No, I am saying that the Spirit of Jesus is the same essence as the Father’s. Are you saying the Holy Spirit is not God, or seperate from the Father? Think about that! Then reconcile that with the many scriptures that show the Holy Spirit is not the Father.
Scriptures clearly teach that there is only “One Spirit” that we have received. A close look at scriptures shows the three persons, Father, Son and Comforter are that “One Spirit”.
(2 Cor 16:16, Phil 1:19, John 15:26)
Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04)
You want to take verse 38 literally, then tell me what literal part of the preexisting Son came down to become Yeshua of Nazareth?Wherefore when he cometh into the world, (Preexistence, the Word that was with God and was God) he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (Heb 10:5-7)When the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived at that very moment the Word/God who was with God and in the form of God, Spirit, took on the form of a servant (Phil 2) and came into human flesh and was Tabernacled among us, (John 1:14) or took on the likeness of sinful flesh, and the man Jesus (Soul and Body) is born, and being found in fashion as a man humbled himself to do the Fathers will even to the death of the cross. However the Word/God which is Spirit did not diminish in his nature as God, since Spirit cannot become flesh and flesh cannot become Spirit, and so we have “God in the flesh”.
Therefore John says…
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (Tabernacled) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
Then John says…
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18Jesus claimed that no one had seen the Father except he himself.
When did he see the Father? (John 6:46) The Father was in heaven.
So the Word/God that was with God as Spirit is still the Word/God that dwells in a body. The Spirit of man is human, the Spirit of Jesus is God. (Rom 8:9, Phil 1:19, 2 Cor 13:5, Col 1:27, Gal 4:19) Yet the soul and body of Jesus is man.
Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04)
What WE KNOW came down from heaven was the fullfillment of Yah's plan.Where is the scripture that says “Yah’s plan came down from heaven”. Jesus didn’t say “I am the plan of my Father which has come down from heaven”. He said…
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:38)
Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04)
What we know that came down from heaven was Yah's Spirit living and working in Yeshua.So the Father left heaven? You say “was Yah's Spirit living and working in Yeshua.”
So if the Spirit was living and working in Yeshua, was it the Fathers personal Spirit or was it the Holy Spirit that Jesus said he would send “From” the Father? (John 15:26) Yes the Father was working in and through Jesus; however Jesus was working in and through the Father. Jesus is and was the same essence as the Father and the Holy Spirit, because of this he had the Spirit without measure.
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)
Jesus does whatever he sees the Father doing. Jesus does nothing without the Father, neither does the Father do anything without Jesus. They are inseparable in nature as God.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (the Word that was with God and was God) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16)
Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,09:04)
What we do know is the details to the conception and birth of Yeshua, none of which state anything about a preexisting Son coming down to transform into a human baby.This is what you know and believe, and you have that right!
Blessings!
Quote (t8 @ May 03 2008,08:06)
t8 believes that Jesus had God's nature, but did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! Then God exalted him to the highest place and eventually that all will confess that Yeshua is lord.Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
Hi t8,
When I found Heaven.net and read your writings I felt a sense of relief. I found another person that I was like-minded with. I agree with everything that you have said in this post and I rejoice with that. Thank you for having this site and for coming back from wherever you were.Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
To all who would care to know more about what I believe:I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son.
Hi Lightenup.
I agree. Zechariah 14 as well as many other passages shows this to be true.
Isa 1:18 explains this very well.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1860
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
The Father is the Most High and the Son is from Him and not equal to Him.Equal in what way? In nature can you tell me how they are not the same?
For instance, if you have children are they any less human than you are?
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I believe that the Son didn't always exist but was the only one born directly of God before the foundation of the world as the Most High God's only begotten living heavenly son.
Is there a scripture for this?
Was the Father pregnant with the son? Nature would seem to contradict this. Besides if all things were created by or through Jesus and without him was not anything made that was made. (John 1:3), wouldn’t the all things include “Time, Space and Matter”, and if he created time then how could he have had a beginning?Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that in the Son's beginning, He was empty but became filled with all the fullness of God.Is there a scripture for this?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I also believe the Son to be the literal Spiritual Light that exposes the truth to mankind and visibly represents His Father, as a heavenly being that can take on different forms.Amen. But if he is less than the Father in nature, then his light would be less than the light of the Father. Is there a scripture that says Yeshua is a lesser light?
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I believe that the Son took on flesh, even emptied Himself and humbled Himself in a way necessary to become like man, even a baby.But did he diminish his nature before he came in the flesh? If he did then wouldn’t this mean he is not the same person that previously existed?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
I believe that the Son became a bondservant and was sacrificed and died for man's sins, and then rose again to be the first to return to the Father of all the dead.Did the Word/God the Spirit of Jesus die? Jesus was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father, (1John 1:1-3) was he not? Did he not have Eternal life? Didn’t he say he had the power to lay down his life and to take it up again? If his Spirit was dead, how could he do this?
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I believe that the Son is the Head of the church and is worthy as I worship and praise Him as my Lord which ultimately gives pleasure, worship and praise to His/my Father.How does this work with a jealous God that says “thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shall you serve”?
Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)
These beliefs are mine but of course do not completely include everything I believe about the Son of God and the Most High God.Blessings!
Just curious.
Blessings.
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