Pre-existent scriptural database

[Baker]

Hi Mike! I wonder if paladin or wispring will show there heads here!!!! I find it so ironic that they simple don't understand.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

how can anyone that has Gods Holy Spirit see something else in this Scripture. It even spells it out. 'and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth….

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Peace and Love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Hi Irene,

Did you see those last 4 I recently added? How did we miss them? I'm sure there are even more out there we just haven't thought about for this thread yet.

I gave the link to this thread in my last post in the “incarnation” thread. We can only lead them to the truth, remember?

mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2011,14:04)

Hi Irene, Did you see those last 4 I recently added?  How did we miss them?    I'm sure there are even more out there we just haven't thought about for this thread yet.   I gave the link to this thread in my last post in the “incarnation” thread.  We can only lead them to the truth, remember?   mike

Mike! I did give Hebrew 1>6, but not your last ones. Also throughout the Gospel of John are Scriptures were it says, 'He was send”. I just can't for the world understand to ignore all these Scriptures, and either reason them away, or ignore them all together…. One day they will do…….I also just told Wispring to check this tread out…..I hope He will…..
Peace and love Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Baker @ April 14 2011,09:47)

I just can't for the world understand to ignore all these Scriptures, and either reason them away, or ignore them all together….

For the same reason an Atheist can look up to the heavens and say there is no God.

At the end of the day, it is not about proof or proof verses, but what people want to believe.

Not all are true in their heart.

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2011,19:50)

Quote (Baker @ April 14 2011,09:47) I just can't for the world understand to ignore all these Scriptures, and either reason them away, or ignore them all together…. For the same reason an Atheist can look up to the heavens and say there is no God. At the end of the day, it is not about proof or proof verses, but what people want to believe. Not all are true in their heart.

T8

you are dead right ,so true it is

Pierre

[Pastry]

Mike! I just came across a Scripture in Romans that is not posted yet..

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

this is a good scripture like Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3;14 that rules out that Jesus always existed….

Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2011,12:50)

Quote (Baker @ April 14 2011,09:47) I just can't for the world understand to ignore all these Scriptures, and either reason them away, or ignore them all together…. For the same reason an Atheist can look up to the heavens and say there is no God. At the end of the day, it is not about proof or proof verses, but what people want to believe. Not all are true in their heart.

T8……….That is true it is about Proof and Proof verses , but many think what is “Proof Verses” is in truth Not a “PROOF VERSE” but are suppositions and That is the Problem here. IMO

T8….My hope is that you have been following what Paladin was saying in his Posts here brother.

peace and love to you and yours brother…………………..gene

[Pastry]

Gene! This is what t8 believes, article written by Him.

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
——————————————————————————–
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

&

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 W
ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craf
tsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?

Peace Irene
——————————————————————————–

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Pastry @ May 17 2011,12:17)

Mike!  I just came across a Scripture in Romans that is not posted yet.. Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.   this is a good scripture like Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3;14 that rules out that Jesus always existed…. Peace Irene

Thanks Irene.

Kathi and I are having this discussion right now, so I will bring this one up.

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………….So much posting and not a Single “Specific” text saying “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH” as a sentinel being of any kind. Pooling hundreds if not thousands of scriptures and forcing them to say what they in fact do not say, is exactly what your fellow preexistence trinitarians do and what the founders of those false beliefs the Gnostic's did also. The bottom line is you or Mike or Terricca have learned nothing from all the efforts and proof brother Paladin has presented here. SAD, IMO

peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene

[Pastry]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 20 2011,00:53)

Irene………….So much posting and not a Single “Specific” text saying “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH” as a sentinel being of any kind.  Pooling hundreds if not thousands of scriptures and forcing them to say what they in fact do not say, is exactly what your fellow preexistence trinitarians do and what the founders of those false beliefs the Gnostic's did also. The bottom line is you or Mike or Terricca have learned nothing from all the efforts  and proof brother Paladin has presented here. SAD, IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene

Gene! What is sad that you or Paladin don't understand and want to make something else out of the Scriptures that do say Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, which BTW the trinitarians don't believe… As far as you calling us by whatever I don't care….
All you can do is calling us names. When you do that YOU also call the Boss of this site too. His article is one of the finest I seen….
Peace Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,23:45)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2010,11:39) T8……Both the first three verses you quoted show position and authority (ONLY) they do not Change Jesus Identity FROM Us as a Human Being who came into existence at His berth on earth. The last has nothing to do with Jesus it is talking about the ATTRIBUTE OF WISDOM, being (PERSONIFIED) ,and even is being personified as a SHE, and we all know Jesus is a HE. Can't you see the extent of the ingratiating of those (SEPARATISTS) teaching have taken hold of you brother? peace and love…………………………………gene gene you doing good you only have to go another 37 verses , so please so continue Pierre

Is that Sarcasm???

Wow Pierre your stepping up.

What next, are you going to pull a rabbit out of your hat?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 20 2011,00:53)

Irene………….So much posting and not a Single “Specific” text saying “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH” as a sentinel being of any kind.  Pooling hundreds if not thousands of scriptures and forcing them to say what they in fact do not say, is exactly what your fellow preexistence trinitarians do and what the founders of those false beliefs the Gnostic's did also. The bottom line is you or Mike or Terricca have learned nothing from all the efforts  and proof brother Paladin has presented here. SAD, IMO peace and love to you and Georg……………………………….gene

Jesus said, “before Abraham I am”. When are you going to believe Jesus, Gene?

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….I do believe Jesus, it's your misunderstanding of what Jesus was meaning there thats the problem Brother. The issue was, the Pharisees were using Abraham as a place of their position with GOD and Jesus was telling them he Was in Place before Abraham was. Brother why can't you understand that?. Jesus was not talking about his Berth or preexistence as a sentinel being of any kind. This applies also to John the Baptist saying He was preferred Before Him. Jesus had been granted that position from the very start of creation, He was mention in Genesis as the “seed” of the women who would bruise the head of the serpent remember?  T8 lets be honest here you or no one here has produced any activity of Jesus before his berth here on earth brother.  T8 have you been following some of the things Paladin has brought out about Jesus' preexistences?  I am not a Greek scholar i admit that but some of his proof do seem solid to me brother, IMO

peace and love to you and yours T8…………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………I was referencing nothing about firstborn regarding what is said , do you see the word Firstborn anywhere there, i was referencing about Preexistence only, the Trinitarians believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth the Gnostic's also did and I do believe you do also right? So that would make all of you preexistences right? That was the only aspects of your tie with then i was making nothing else , now is that a false accusation , point is and was they believe in preexistence and so do you believe in preexistence right? IMO

peace and love………………………………………..gene

[Pastry]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2011,02:45)

Irene………I was referencing nothing about firstborn regarding what is said , do you see the word Firstborn anywhere there,  i was referencing about Preexistence  only, the Trinitarians believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth the Gnostic's also did and I do believe you do also right? So that would make all of you preexistences right? That was the only aspects of your tie with then i was making nothing else , now is that a false accusation , point is and was they believe in preexistence and so do you believe in preexistence right? IMO peace and love………………………………………..gene

Gene, you still don't understand. You put us with the believe of the trinitarians, and that is wrong!!! Again, they believe Jesus always existed, we don't…. Got it?
Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 21 2011,02:19)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,23:45) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2010,11:39) T8……Both the first three verses you quoted show position and authority (ONLY) they do not Change Jesus Identity FROM Us as a Human Being who came into existence at His berth on earth. The last has nothing to do with Jesus it is talking about the ATTRIBUTE OF WISDOM, being (PERSONIFIED) ,and even is being personified as a SHE, and we all know Jesus is a HE. Can't you see the extent of the ingratiating of those (SEPARATISTS) teaching have taken hold of you brother? peace and love…………………………………gene gene you doing good you only have to go another 37 verses , so please so continue Pierre Is that Sarcasm??? Wow Pierre your stepping up.   What next, are you going to pull a rabbit out of your hat?

SF

muchos gracias

Pedro

[mikeboll64]

Matthew 23:37 NIV
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

I must thank Gene for this one.  His response to this scripture in the “Bodies” thread is what caused me to look closer at it.  So……………thanks Gene!  

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2011,02:23)

T8……….I do believe Jesus, it's your misunderstanding of what Jesus was meaning there thats the problem Brother. The issue was, the Pharisees were using Abraham as a place of their position with GOD and Jesus was telling them he Was in Place before Abraham was. Brother why can't you understand that?.

Because it doesn't say that.

I am:
When used as a copula, with a predicate, “I am X”, then usage is equivalent to English.
When used alone, without a predicate, “I am”, “he is”, “they are”, typically mean “I exist” etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_eimi

[mikeboll64]

John 8:58 NWT
Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

NLT ©
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”

NETNotes on the present tense of “I AM”:
The [Greek] present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed “historical presents,”………..

Professor and Greek scholar Jason BeDuhn, from his book book TRUTH IN TRANSLATION:  ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, where he compared nine popular translations:
“The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear.  Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.  All the translations except the NLT and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.

Gene, John 8:58 is a case of Jesus telling the Jews he existed before their patriarch Abraham – pure and simple.

[Author]

Posts