Phillipians 2

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,11:08)

Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion. 6who, although He existed with an allotment or portion from/of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the nature of a bond-servant,

Hi Martian,

I'm not sure where you're coming up with morphe meaning to have an allotment.  My sources say,

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance

Thayer's Lexicon says, “children were said to be in the morphe of their parents”.  He also says, “He bore the form (of which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God.”

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang….4&t=KJV

How do we use your “allotment” definition for the same word in Mark 16:12, which says,

Mar 16:12 NIV
Afterwards Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.

As far as contrasting Adam from Christ, I don't see it in Phil 2 anywhere.  You might have to spoon feed me again to show me where that inferrence is.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2010,12:33)

Mike…………Martian is presenting Phil 2 that right way brother. You can not use it for any proof text , you need to try something else maybe another scripture will help you case better. peace and love…………………………gene

Hi Gene,

There are many more scriptures coming……can't you just feel Irene chomping at the bit to finally get some of them answered?  From what I've seen, you guys have been ignoring them for quite some time on the pre-existent thread.  

But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?

When will one of you guys actually deal with this point?

Gene?  barley?  Martian?  Nick?  Marty?

Please stop avoiding the question and answer it DIRECTLY.  

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi David,

You said:

Quote

Next, you have two other concepts that prove his pre-existence if this is what the debate is about.

No, this thread is ONLY about whether Phil 2 infers that Jesus pre-existed.

You said:

Quote

How can Jesus a human, be equal (same as) to God?

Exactly!  If Jesus was nothing more than a human like us, why would equality with God even be an issue?  No human could even contemplate equality with the One who created everything.  At least no sane human.

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….”Form”, does not in that context mean Shape, it is implying Spiritual Substance, and the timing is crucial, is the word existed or existing , if you get a Greek linear you will see it say (existing) as a present tense state not a past tense state as a preexistent being would require, and if you use it as a past tense state even that would not support your hypotheses, because when that statement was made Jesus was already raised and in Heaven , so Paul was simply speaking of Jesus Earthly existence , and had nothing to do with preexisting before his berth on earth. Either way you put it you still can not use that as a proof text for Jesus' preexistence before earth existence. You are forcing the text to meet your conclusions brother, IMO. Why can't you at least conclude that part so we can advance here in the discussion. You have not (specifically) proved your point and even if you say we have not either, then at best we are at a stalemate. So lets move one. What is next?

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………..Your assumption is that Jesus was equal to GOD , but Jesus said He could do nothing of or (by himself) and it was the Father (IN) him doing the works. So how do you now say he was equal with GOD , Jesus sure did not think he was did he. Again you are assuming things that are not written. What Paul's was saying was Jesus was (TRYING TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD). And did not Jesus say God was greater then He, and also “FOR THO ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. Again lets stay on track here. You still have not proved Jesus' preexistence so far. IMO

peace and love to you and your……………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,02:45)

if you get a Greek linear you will see it say (existing) as a present tense state not a past tense state

Gene,

I and t8 have already answered your “tense” point.  You imply that Paul is saying Jesus, who is NOW existing in the form of God……..

If that is the case, how did Jesus, who is NOW existing in the form of God EMPTY HIMSELF TO BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN?

When will you answer my ONE simple question I've been asking?  I've bolded it in at least 5 posts now.  This is from the post you are actually responding to right here, yet you didn't address it:

But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?

Will you ever address this question?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,02:54)

Mike………..Your assumption is that Jesus was equal to GOD

I have NEVER thought Jesus was God or equal to Him.

mike

[martian]

I am spending far too much time with this computer game. My publisher is on me to finish my next book and I need to work there. Plus I have been practically housebound for 2 years. I am now able to walk again and I need to go do some things. I will try to back to it when I can

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,04:00)

I am spending far too much time with this computer game. My publisher is on me to finish my next book and I need to work there. Plus I have been practically housebound for 2 years. I am now able to walk again and I need to go do some things. I will try to back to it when I can

Hey Martian,

You sure you don't want to take just one poke at answering this question before you go?

But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?

Anyway, happy trails to you.  I sure hope your book isn't about what the Hebrew word “bara” or the Greek word “morphe” meant!    

Hopefully this “computer game” taught you at least those two things……it has caused me to learn those and many other scriptural things.  Pretty good “game” as far as I'm concerned.

peace and love,
mike

[barley]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,14:54)

Barley, Have I not asked you to think with a Spiritual mind – not a Fleshly one. What gives that you continue the same way as before?

Interesting.  

the topic here is Philippians 2, not Romans 8:1-16 and I Corinthians 12:1-14:40.  See I Corinthians 12:1.  See I Corinthians 12:7-10.  
Are we discussing the manifestation of the spirit?

Are we discussing the word of wisdom?
Are we discussing the word of knowledge?
Are we discussing the working of faith?
Are we discussing the gifts of healings?
Are we discussing the working of miracles?
Are we discussing prophecy?
Are we discussing discerning of spirits?
Are we discussing speaking in tongues?
Are we discussing the interpretation of tongues?

I Corinthians 14:5 are we discussing the commandment of the Lord, “I would that ye all spake with tongues”?  

Are we discussing the gracious etiquette of prophets and their wives in the churches?  I Corinthians 14:29-37.

No, I do not think so.  Wait, I know we are not.  We are discussing Philippians 2.

Would be so kind as to stay on subject?

barley

[Ed J]

Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,04:00)

I am spending far too much time with this computer game. My publisher is on me to finish my next book and I need to work there. Plus I have been practically housebound for 2 years. I am now able to walk again and I need to go do some things. I will try to back to it when I can

Hi Martin,

What book you are now writing?
And what books have you written in the past?

Ed J

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
Yes those who write books have their own agendas.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,02:21)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2010,12:33) Mike…………Martian is presenting Phil 2 that right way brother. You can not use it for any proof text , you need to try something else maybe another scripture will help you case better. peace and love…………………………gene Hi Gene, There are many more scriptures coming……can't you just feel Irene chomping at the bit to finally get some of them answered?  From what I've seen, you guys have been ignoring them for quite some time on the pre-existent thread.   But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”? When will one of you guys actually deal with this point? Gene?  barley?  Martian?  Nick?  Marty? Please stop avoiding the question and answer it DIRECTLY.   peace and love, mike

Mike……….You are not answering the question right , i was not talking about Jesus (NOW) position (NOR) His prior Berth on earth existence , But Paul was talking about His (EARTHLY) existence , that was a past existence for Jesus at (THE) time Paul wrote the text. GET IT? Jesus was existing on the earth (In) the nature of GOD because GOD'S Spirit was in him to the fullest. Get it?. Lets see if we can at least get this straight.

peace and love………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2010,06:37)

Mike……….You are not answering the question right , i was not talking about Jesus (NOW) position (NOR) His prior Berth on earth existence , But Paul was talking about His (EARTHLY) existence , that was a past existence for Jesus  at (THE) time Paul wrote the text. GET IT? Jesus was existing on the earth (In) the nature of GOD because GOD'S Spirit was in him to the fullest. Get it?. Lets see if we can at least get this straight.

Hi Gene,

Ahhh……yes, now I get it.  So I will change the question to you a little bit in light of your clarification.

If Jesus was existing on earth in the nature of God because God's spirit was in him to the fullest, WHAT THEN did he empty himself OF?  God's spirit?  And if he was already in the form of a human WHILE he was in the nature of God, how did he “be made” in the likeness of a human?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (barley @ July 26 2010,05:25)

No, I do not think so.  Wait, I know we are not.  We are discussing Philippians 2. Would be so kind as to stay on subject? barley

Hi barley,

Right you are about the topic of this thread, and thank you for reminding the others.  

So how about an answer to the bolded question I keep asking?

But for now, we are only dealing with Phil 2, and I have been asking for an answer to how Jesus, if he was “in the form of God” AS A HUMAN, could have emptied himself to “BE MADE IN THE FORM OF A HUMAN”?

mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,02:06)

Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,11:08) Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion. 6who, although He existed with an allotment or portion from/of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the nature of a bond-servant, Hi Martian, I'm not sure where you're coming up with morphe meaning to have an allotment.  My sources say, 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance Thayer's Lexicon says, “children were said to be in the morphe of their parents”.  He also says, “He bore the form (of which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God.” http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang….4&t=KJV How do we use your “allotment” definition for the same word in Mark 16:12, which says, Mar 16:12 NIV Afterwards Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. As far as contrasting Adam from Christ, I don't see it in Phil 2 anywhere.  You might have to spoon feed me again to show me where that inferrence is. mike

the Strong's dictionary entry has the following information :

G3444. morphe, mor-fay'; perh. from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; fig. nature:–form.

G3313. meros, mer'-os; from an obsol. but more prim. form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (lit. or fig., in a wide application):–behalf, coast, course, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort (-what).

[barley]

Quote (barley @ July 23 2010,14:40)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2010,10:49) Hi All, This thread is ONLY for discussing whether or not Phillipians 2 implies Jesus pre-existed. Please don't post your opinions on the matter as a whole, but limit them ONLY to your understanding of Phil 2. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing,      taking the form of a servant,      being made in human likeness. I say it's clear evidence of Jesus' pre-existence.  What say you all? mike No, this section of scripture does not imply at all that Jesus Christ preexisted.   What, pray tell, would lead anyone to that conclusion?   Is that he was found in the form of God?  I was found in the form of my parents, I was not found in the form of a lizard.  My parents were immigrants from Lithuania.  They esteemed their culture.  But now they were in the USA.   I was in a position to esteem the Lithuanian culture more than the USA.  I choose to be an American more than a Lithuanian.  I enjoy the fact that I have a Lithuanian background, but I am an American.   Jesus Christ could have lived like a spoiled brat, seeing that he is the only begotten son of God, but for him,loving God, by keeping His commandments was his choice.  He chose the life of a servant to God.  He did not exalt himself, he humbled himself to serve God and therefore humanity.  The context of these verses is an exhortation for us to serve God.  Jesus Christ chose to serve God, so should we.   Paul, likewise, says I had all the religious credentials any one would want, yet when I learned of Jesus Christ, those credentials became dung, compared to what Christ is to me.  The subject is service to God, which Jesus Christ most vividly illustrated. There is nothing in those verses or in the context that would suggest preexistence.   Who were JC's parents?  God and Mary.  Therefore it follows that he would be found in the form of God.

Might I add?

Jesus Christ chose to be obedient to his parents.  I chose to be obedient to mine.  Of course, I did not always do so.  He chose to obey God, he did not choose to flaunt  his exalted lineage or his ego, or a need for attention or what schools he went to.  

 Am I equal to my parents?  In some ways yes, in some ways, I was inferior, in some ways, I was superior.  

I did not choose to disobey my parents because of any equality we might have had.  Rather I chose to honor my Father and my Mother, even as Jesus Christ did and did perfectly.  

Nehemiah did not make himself of any reputation either.  He humbled himself to do the will of God.  God highly exalted him as well.  He did not run around bragging about his own credentials, but took upon himself the form of a servant.  He did not deny his credentials, but rather relied on God, not his credentials.

Esther did not boast about her credentials either. She subjected herself to Mordecai's wisdom.  She accomplished great things because of her humility to her guardian Mordecai and his wisdom concerning the will of God.

Neither Nehemiah, Esther, Mordecai, myself, you  or Jesus Christ preexisted.  

I repeat, the context of these verses in discussion is service to God.   One way repeatedly mentioned is the furtherance of the gospel, in chapter one.  Philippians 2:12 reiterates the theme of obedience and service to God.  Philippians 2:16 repeats to us the need for us to “hold forth the word of life”.  verse 30 is another prime example of the exhortation to serve.

barley

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ July 26 2010,05:41)

Quote (martian @ July 26 2010,04:00) I am spending far too much time with this computer game. My publisher is on me to finish my next book and I need to work there. Plus I have been practically housebound for 2 years. I am now able to walk again and I need to go do some things. I will try to back to it when I can Hi Martin, What book you are now writing? And what books have you written in the past? Ed J

Since I use my real name on my books I am hesitant to tell you the title of my work and have it broadcast online. I prefer to remain unknown on these forums.
I can tell you my first book was a SCi-Fi. This one is a Gothic Romance Adventure. My next will be a historical dram based in the Civil war and I have one started that will be a Space Opera.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2010,05:42)

Hi ED, Yes those who write books have their own agendas.

OMG, you are so silly. I have not written any large work about scripture. I have written a few short articles for my church but that is it.
My Agenda is to live in shuch a way that my character is transformed to be luke Christ.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,02:06)

Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,11:08) Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion. 6who, although He existed with an allotment or portion from/of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the nature of a bond-servant, Hi Martian, I'm not sure where you're coming up with morphe meaning to have an allotment.  My sources say, 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance Thayer's Lexicon says, “children were said to be in the morphe of their parents”.  He also says, “He bore the form (of which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God.” http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang….4&t=KJV How do we use your “allotment” definition for the same word in Mark 16:12, which says, Mar 16:12 NIV Afterwards Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. As far as contrasting Adam from Christ, I don't see it in Phil 2 anywhere.  You might have to spoon feed me again to show me where that inferrence is. mike

Mike,
I do not like leaving things undone.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that there are instances of Christ being compared to Adam?
Did you read the post on what Adam lost?

[Author]

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