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Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2010,02:10) Quote (martian @ Sep. 11 2010,01:40) Declare your victory. It is a very small thing on a forum.
Hi Martian,Does this mean you now admit “preexistence” is FACT?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Afraid not. Just letting Mike play the forum game. Declaring it does not make it so. Saying you have won does not make it so. And on a forum it has no value or weight in the real Christianity.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2010,08:23) Watch this movie trailer from the time-line starting at 1:03 to 1:10! 
Quote (martian @ Sep. 12 2010,01:57) Seems Mike has his buddies at work again. I blasted Mike's interpretation principles and he complained and got me warned. Poor baby. When we were discussing learning the character of Christ he compared it to three year olds learning to climb trees like monkeys. Those were his original words. Perhaps you should ask Mike if he is a Christian with comments like that.
Hi Martian,I have neither personally given you a block nor reported any of your posts to a moderator…….so don't blame me for your mean spirited comments. I just take them for what they are…..the rantings of an angry man who is faced with info that refutes his doctrine…..and has no scriptural recourse for disputing that info.
My now famous “monkey analogy” simply said that a kid wouldn't need to learn how to climb a tree from a human (one who is EXACTLY like him). A kid could learn to climb a tree from watching monkeys do it as well.
The point was to show you that we don't have to be EXACTLY like Jesus to be able to learn from and follow him.
Throughout history, humans have developed many technologies that were originally learned from creatures that weren't EXACTLY like us. The bottom line is that we as humans CAN learn from beings who are NOT exactly like us. Don't you agree with that, Martian?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2010,04:12) Mike……..What exactly is the FORM of GOD? Jesus did not exist in the FORM of GOD , but in the NATURE of GOD and Paul was not talking about a Pre-earth existence but when he was ON EARTH, HE EXISTED ON EARTH With the NATURE of GOD, Just like All who have GOD'S Spirit in them Do.
Hi Gene,If he “existed ON EARTH with the nature of God” like you say, then how is it that he “EMPTIED HIMSELF” and “WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?
This is the part you keep ignoring. I clearly understand that you think he had the nature of God when he WAS a human being. But that understanding doesn't fit with the rest of it that says he emptied himself of this “nature of God” and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.
How could he be made into something you say he already existed as?
mike
Mike…………Just as you say a Monkey is not (EXACTLY) like Us If fact it has nothing to do with Us , so why should i or anyone else for that matter compare ourselves with a monkey for any reason at all. You preexistences do the same with Jesus You separated Him from our (exact) likeness, and then say we need to be (EXACTLY) like HIM. Then you attack Martian for asking honest and genuine question regarding your relationship with Jesus on the unequal basis of your Doctrines. What right would Jesus have to tell me to overcomes as He did if He were different in anyway then Me. Have you ever though about that?. The only way He could ever tell me to overcome (EVEN AS HE DID) would be if he was (EXACTLY) the SAME as ME in EVERY WAY. You bringing in a Kid learning how to climb a tree from a monkey, is just stupid IMO i learned how to climb a tree by Just trying to climb it. Mike the whole Problem here is you did not even try to answer me or martians questions when He and I ask you to. So martian just gave up trying when he saw how you just refuse to even consider his questions presented to you.
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2010,02:42) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2010,04:12) Mike……..What exactly is the FORM of GOD? Jesus did not exist in the FORM of GOD , but in the NATURE of GOD and Paul was not talking about a Pre-earth existence but when he was ON EARTH, HE EXISTED ON EARTH With the NATURE of GOD, Just like All who have GOD'S Spirit in them Do.
Hi Gene,If he “existed ON EARTH with the nature of God” like you say, then how is it that he “EMPTIED HIMSELF” and “WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?
This is the part you keep ignoring. I clearly understand that you think he had the nature of God when he WAS a human being. But that understanding doesn't fit with the rest of it that says he emptied himself of this “nature of God” and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.
How could he be made into something you say he already existed as?
mike
Mike ……….Emptied himself of WHAT?. His being , His Nature, His physical form, His What? it was THE GLORY ASSOCIATED WITH HIS (acquired) POSITION as a Son of GOD he recieved at the Jordan river, IS WHAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF OF AND TOOK ONE THE SAME ( UN-GLORIFIED) NATURE THAT A MAN HAS. He HUMBLED HIMSELF in other words, He took on the nature of a servant. That was Paul's point as the rest of the verse tell you. But you preexistences try to change what Paul's was talking about because you have no true support scriptures so you have to force the text to say what you want it to say.This is a crazy thread: Gene, can you really believe what you just wrote?
jesus “emptied himself of…” what at the Jordan – where does Scripture say that. Surely it said the Holy Spirit alighted on him like a Dove. Howis that “Emptying” – is that “Filling”?And wasn't he “Man” before going to the River Jordan?
Anyway, argue the point with Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2010,02:31) Quote (martian @ Sep. 12 2010,01:57) Seems Mike has his buddies at work again. I blasted Mike's interpretation principles and he complained and got me warned. Poor baby. When we were discussing learning the character of Christ he compared it to three year olds learning to climb trees like monkeys. Those were his original words. Perhaps you should ask Mike if he is a Christian with comments like that.
Hi Martian,I have neither personally given you a block nor reported any of your posts to a moderator…….so don't blame me for your mean spirited comments. I just take them for what they are…..the rantings of an angry man who is faced with info that refutes his doctrine…..and has no scriptural recourse for disputing that info.
My now famous “monkey analogy” simply said that a kid wouldn't need to learn how to climb a tree from a human (one who is EXACTLY like him). A kid could learn to climb a tree from watching monkeys do it as well.
The point was to show you that we don't have to be EXACTLY like Jesus to be able to learn from and follow him.
Throughout history, humans have developed many technologies that were originally learned from creatures that weren't EXACTLY like us. The bottom line is that we as humans CAN learn from beings who are NOT exactly like us. Don't you agree with that, Martian?
mike
Since the subject of that prior discussion was our developing the character like Christ your analogy of learning from a monkey was completely wrong then and now.
It is one thing to develop some physical skill from a different creature, it is totally different to learn character by making the same decisions based on the same criteria. For this reason Christ must have the same available knowledge by which he makes his decisions. With other knowledge not available to us his decision making process is based on different criteria. The decision making process is what develops the God-like Character in him and is the path we are to follow. Give him knowledge not available to us and his process is different and his path to Godliness is different in a way that we cannot follow. Thee goes his example.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 12 2010,03:10) Mike ……….Emptied himself of WHAT?. His being , His Nature, His physical form, His What? it was THE GLORY ASSOCIATED WITH HIS (acquired) POSITION as a Son of GOD he recieved at the Jordan river, IS WHAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF OF AND TOOK ONE THE SAME ( UN-GLORIFIED) NATURE THAT A MAN HAS.
Gene,You say Jesus took on the same nature as a man has, but that's not all that the scripture says now, does it? It says AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING. What was he before he WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING?
Phil 2:6-7 NIV
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Gene, if you cannot find a logical way to refute the last line here, then give up and come over to the truth of the matter. It has nothing to do with monkeys Gene…….just scripture. What does the scripture say? It says he was in ONE form/nature but then was made in the likeness of a different form/nature.
Either refute this last line with solid logic of what else it could mean, or pray about how you have been mislead and mistaken all this time. God will show it to you if you humbly ask Him, for I believe His Son who told us, “Ask and you shall receive….Knock and it will be opened.”
I'm sincerely asking you to ask Gene.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (martian @ Sep. 12 2010,04:08) Since the subject of that prior discussion was our developing the character like Christ your analogy of learning from a monkey was completely wrong then and now.
Okay Martian,How about this: I'm a stupid idiot for ever mentioning a monkey. Is that okay? Now can we stop diverting the issue with “monkey talk” and the “please list a 300 word essay on how you came to your understanding” diversion and JUST ANSWER THE SCRIPTURE?
If Jesus was already a human being when he was said to be “in the form of God”, why was he then MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING?
You see Martian, in this simple case of words, you don't really have to have an expert understanding of Hebrew culture…….just a Greek dictionary. The word is HUMAN BEING. Jesus was made as a human being AFTER he emptied himself of whatever “being in the form of God” means. So whatever it means, it cannot possibly be some attribute he had AS A HUMAN BEING, for he emptied himself of that attribute and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.
There are no “secret Hebrew cultural laws” that would make these words null and void. So in a nutshell, that very last Greek word “anthropos” – which means “human being” – CLEARLY says Jesus existed in another form before emptying himself and being made in the form of a human.
That's pretty much all she wrote brother. Either believe scripture or don't……..that part is up to you.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Sep. 12 2010,04:06) This is a crazy thread: Gene, can you really believe what you just wrote?
jesus “emptied himself of…” what at the Jordan – where does Scripture say that. Surely it said the Holy Spirit alighted on him like a Dove. Howis that “Emptying” – is that “Filling”?And wasn't he “Man” before going to the River Jordan?
Anyway, argue the point with Mike.
JA………I miss posted it Should have read THIS IS WHAT He Emptied Himself of , the Glory afforded him by being a son of GOD.
Not the Spirit Nature He recieved at the Jordan. If T8 would give me back my editing right i could have corrected it.Sorry for the mistake.
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2010,04:32) Mike……………. Are you beginning to get the picture yet. Jesus was and always will be one of Us brother, he never was any different then us. He was the (firstborn) from man kind to have eternal life and experience the resurrection from the dead as this is our hope too. He gave us a perfect example of How a man must become saved and enter into the kingdom of GOD. He never was there and then came hear and them went back to a former position, but as a man acquired the position GOD had for him as well as All man kind. He is the (first) of (Many) brothers and sisters to enter the kingdom of GOD and attain to eternal life. He is the way and the hope for us attaining that life, is example is the way we achieve it. Do not try to separate your likeness to Jesus it will cause you to be separated from Him and the Father. Preexistence live in the false house the Trinitarians have built for it., it is (NOT) of GOD. IMO peace and love for you and yours…………………………….gene
Gene! Jesus will always be like us? No way….. He never was like us to the degree that you want Him to be. He is the literal Son of God who came forth from His Father Jehovah God, while we came out of the dust of the earth and to that dust we will return. Jesus never seen destruction. He will also come back s KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. No other Human ever, I mean ever, was or is like Him…….
He emptied Himself of the glory He had with His Father before the world was. And by His own words went back to that glory. We do know that He is a Spirit Being now, since no flesh and blood can enter the Kingdom of God. And He is seated at the right hand of His Father. To become a Human Being He emptied Himself of that glory and became a man…… He knew where He came from, otherwise He could have never said what He said in John 17:5………IreneIrene……….Don;t you see how you are destroying the very work of Jesus and God the Father, by making Jesus different then yourself. How is it you think God was dealing with a preexisting Angel and teaching Him and Perfecting Him to be obedient. Would a preexisting Angle or demigod of some kind need to learn that, wouldn't he have already known that. As far as saying Jesus never saw destruction that is like saying He really never died , But Jesus said out of his own mouth said he was dead , the only different was that God raised Him from the Grave and His Body did not see corruption. He was only dead for three days, but i assure you he was dead, not matter what false religion preaches. They want you to think as you do Jesus was not (really) like us. It is all part of the Greek and Roman Pagan concepts of life in the neither world purely a false teaching. Irene Why can't you see Jesus as ONE of US Human Beings God was not dealing with angles but with mankind through a man Jesus. Think about it Irene.
peace and love to you and Georg……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 13 2010,09:50) Irene……….Don;t you see how you are destroying the very work of Jesus and God the Father, by making Jesus different then yourself. How is it you think God was dealing with a preexisting Angel and teaching Him and Perfecting Him to be obedient. Would a preexisting Angle or demigod of some kind need to learn that, wouldn't he have already known that. As far as saying Jesus never saw destruction that is like saying He really never died , But Jesus said out of his own mouth said he was dead , the only different was that God raised Him from the Grave and His Body did not see corruption. He was only dead for three days, but i assure you he was dead, not matter what false religion preaches. They want you to think as you do Jesus was not (really) like us. It is all part of the Greek and Roman Pagan concepts of life in the neither world purely a false teaching. Irene Why can't you see Jesus as ONE of US Human Beings God was not dealing with angles but with mankind through a man Jesus. Think about it Irene. peace and love to you and Georg……………………….gene
genewhy is it you cannot understand what Irene is saying?
she quoting scriptures did you see and read it first ?
if so then show were she is wrong if you can not, keep silent.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 13 2010,05:03) she quoting scriptures did you see and read it first ? if so then show were she is wrong if you can not, keep silent.
Pierre
Well said Pierre. And Gene, while you are actually attempting to answer scriptures instead of just repeating your wishes over and over, maybe you could actually respond to the part of Phil 2:7 that CLEARLY AND CONCISELY refutes your non-preexistent view with one simple word. Here, I'll repost it for you:Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2010,04:12) Mike……..What exactly is the FORM of GOD? Jesus did not exist in the FORM of GOD , but in the NATURE of GOD and Paul was not talking about a Pre-earth existence but when he was ON EARTH, HE EXISTED ON EARTH With the NATURE of GOD, Just like All who have GOD'S Spirit in them Do.
Hi Gene,If he “existed ON EARTH with the nature of God” like you say, then how is it that he “EMPTIED HIMSELF” and “WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?
The last word in Phil 2:7 is “anthropos” which means “human being” Gene. Jesus emptied himself of his “nature of God” and was made as a human being. What does that tell you?
It seems to me that no matter whatever other strange abstract meanings you and Martian and Marty and barley apply to all the other “pre-existent” scriptures we list to make them “go away”, you guys can't seem to refute Phil 2:6-7 because of that last word “human being”.
Can you? I've been waiting.
peace and love,
mikeMike………so now you are saying God was not (IN) Him because He emptied out all of that. Surely you Joke, Jesus recieved God's Nature (Holy Spirit) Just as we Do from the anointing he recieved at the Jordan river and He (NEVER) Emptied Himself of that anointing He is THE ANOINTED SON OF GOD. Sorry you believe he emptied himself of that. You are completely wrong, my Friend. Next you will be telling us as the trinitarians do He was a GOD and emptied Himself and Became and (INCARNATE) HUMAN being, In fact why don't you preexistences Just Join them you really are not far apart anyway. If you read the context of what Paul was talking about, You should have no problem realizing he was talking about Jesus' earthly existence not some Past existence. Paul was showing the brethren that Jesus did not try to rob GOD by making himself equal to Him when He was on earth with the nature of GOD (IN) Him , But took on the nature of a slave (that mean the personality of a Salve) the humble state a slave as a servant to all. Jesus plainly told His disciples He was among the not to be served but to serve. “The son of Man came not to be served but to serve.”
Mike here is something that might help turn the light on.
John 13:13-15…..> You cll me Master and Lord: and you say well for so I am ,14…> If I then, you Lord and Master, have washed your feet; you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15…> For i have given you and example, that you should do as I have done to you.
Mike Here is what you want us to believe is your big PROOF Text. You hinge it on the Greek word ,
ghin”-om- ahee………..> that word is used 456 times in scripture 88 as came, 73 as made, as done 63,as come 44as become 25, as became 18,as forbid 15,as god 15,as been 14, as arose 11, as being 5,as becometh 4,as fulfilled 3, as married 3,as abroad 2, as ariseth 2,as brought 2,as cometh 2, as doing 2, as grow 2, as had 2, as have 2, as past 2. as preferred 2, as seemed 2, as showed 2,a trembled 2,as waxed 2, as wrought 2, as altered 1,as amazed 1, as assembled 1, as awakening 1, as befell 1, as behaved 1, as camest 1 as coming 1, as continued 1,as divided 1, as drawing 1,as end 1, as even 1,as falling 1, as fell 1, as finished 1, as followed 1, as found 1, as give 1, as happened 1, as kept 1, as laid 1, as lost 1,as means 1, as noised 1, as ordained 1, as Partakest 1, as performed 1, as published 1, as purpose 1, as put 1,as required 1, as saltness 1, as soon 1, as sounded 1, as taken 1, as thundered 1, as tremble 1, as turned 1, as used 1, as vanished 1,as wait 1 as wept 1, as would 1, as years 1
“Spin the wheel Vanna' , take you pick , Mike surely you Jest , This is your “BIG PROOF TEXT”. It is no wonder you preexistences are confused. With all those possible words we can make it say anything we want to. Mike you have PROVED Nothing but that You follow the Trinitarians lead of MYSTERY RELIGION. . You can not use Phil 2 to prove nothing about Jesus preexistence. IMO
You haven't even began to give any reason why GOD would even do thing that way in the first Place, You have only came part way out Mike you need to come all the way out of the Mystery Religion you have excepted as yours brother. Buy the eye save Jesus offers you Mike and you will begin to see clearly brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………….gene
No Gene,
It is not the word “ginomai” I am asking you to refute, it is the word “anthropos” – which means “human being”.
Try to stay with me buddy. Let me repost it again:
Hi Gene,
If he “existed ON EARTH with the nature of God” like you say, then how is it that he “EMPTIED HIMSELF” and “WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?
The last word in Phil 2:7 is “anthropos” which means “human being” Gene. Jesus emptied himself of his “nature of God” and was made as a human being. What does that tell you?
It seems to me that no matter whatever other strange abstract meanings you and Martian and Marty and barley apply to all the other “pre-existent” scriptures we list to make them “go away”, you guys can't seem to refute Phil 2:6-7 because of that last word “human being“.
Can you? I've been waiting.
Did you even read the post Gene? It doesn't say anything at all about “ginomai”. You are stalling…..aren't you?
I'm going to finish your statement from your last post. My words will be the bolded ones……and those are the words I hope you will someday address.Gene: Paul was showing the brethren that Jesus did not try to rob GOD by making himself equal to Him when He was on earth with the nature of GOD (IN) Him , But took on the nature of a slave…… AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.
You see Gene? You start your story well, but you keep ignoring the scriptural ending that refutes your story.
mike
Mike……….We are all human beings Just like Jesus was and still is. “WHEN THE (SON OF MAN) come will he find faith on the earth?”. Yes Jesus is a HUMAN BEING He always WAS a HUMAN BEING, and still is one. I have no argument with the word Anthropos. He was made a partaker of the human race so were we, all by ONE GOD. How does that separate our identity with Jesus in any way. How does anyone empty himself of the Nature of GOD , Do you actually believe GOD was Not (IN) HIM and some how He got rid of the (NATURE) of GOD which he recieved at the Jordan river . How exactly did he do that Mike. Did He forsake GOD or did GOD forsake Him , because that is the only way he could have gotten rid of that nature. Mike Paul's is saying He (EXISTED) while on earth with that nature , but did not use it to try to make himself (equal) to GOD. But He humbled himslef taking on a Nature (mental attitude) of a servant. Setting us an example brother, that we should serve one another. Man Has that preexistence garbage got you so messed up Mike. My GOD Help You brother to come out of that.
peace and love t you and yours…………………………gene
Gene! You accusing me and others that we make Jesus different, but you said that Jesus was a Human always and still is….How in the world can you put my Savior down like that. It makes me angry….. He is our Savior and sits on the right hand of Our Jehovah God. Not as a Human being, cause no Human being will ever see our Jehovah God, unless He or She is a Spirit Being…. You are so wrong and it makes me even wonder what happened to you? You started out with God's Holy Spirit, but it is not present with you when you say something like that……Irene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,03:27) Do you actually believe GOD was Not (IN) HIM and some how He got rid of the (NATURE) of GOD which he recieved at the Jordan river .
I've gotten to the point that I believe I am casting pearls before swine Gene. You don't actually answer the questions, but instead just keep insulting me and Irene and Pierre.To answer your above question: It says he was IN THE NATURE OF GOD, not GOD'S NATURE WAS IN HIM. Don't twist the words Gene. This is your last chance with me on this subject – either answer these questions DIRECTLY or don't expect another response from me. I am wasting my time with the likes of you, because you refuse to address the actual scriptures. I've had enough of you ignoring the scriptures we post and insulting us instead of answering our points.
Part 1. Who being in the nature of God – Was Jesus a human being at this point Gene?
Part 2. Emptied himself – Was Jesus a human being at this point Gene?
Part 3. Took on the nature of a slave – Was Jesus a human being at this point Gene?
Part 4. And was made in the likeness of a human being – If your answer to Part 1 is “Yes”, then what do you think Part 4 is referring to?
Either give a direct answer or don't even bother answering at all Gene. I have read more than enough of your diatribes.
mike
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