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Hi SF:
I will just make this statement. John 1 states that the Logos was with God in the beginning. The Logos embodies an idea or a plan, and God's plan was to make man in His own image. Jesus, the last Adam, is the culmination of God's plan for this world and for humanity. God created all things knowing that a point in time him plan would be fulfilled through His Son and His Christ. He made all things by him and for him. Notice Colossians does not say that he made all things for “himself”. Jesus is not the creator. God created all things “by him and for him (he is God's heir). In Genesis we have the record that God created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 1:3 states:
Quote 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; I believe that the latter scripture pretty well summarizes what I have stated.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 27 2010,07:04) Hi SF: I will just make this statement. John 1 states that the Logos was with God in the beginning. The Logos embodies an idea or a plan, and God's plan was to make man in His own image. Jesus, the last Adam, is the culmination of God's plan for this world and for humanity. God created all things knowing that a point in time him plan would be fulfilled through His Son and His Christ. He made all things by him and for him. Notice Colossians does not say that he made all things for “himself”. Jesus is not the creator. God created all things “by him and for him (he is God's heir). In Genesis we have the record that God created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 1:3 states:
Quote 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; I believe that the latter scripture pretty well summarizes what I have stated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I understand you but im sorry I strongly disagree.I agreed to the point that He wasnt called Christ Jesus before hand.
But I believe the Word which is Christ Jesus created.
it does say for himself.
it says by him and for him. in other words for himself.ITs strongly declared in scriptures.
So there isnt much to say numbers,I guess we can agree to disagree brother =)
at least i understand you, and you understand me =)Quote (942767 @ Aug. 27 2010,13:04) Hi SF: I will just make this statement. John 1 states that the Logos was with God in the beginning. The Logos embodies an idea or a plan, and God's plan was to make man in His own image. Jesus, the last Adam, is the culmination of God's plan for this world and for humanity. God created all things knowing that a point in time him plan would be fulfilled through His Son and His Christ. He made all things by him and for him. Notice Colossians does not say that he made all things for “himself”. Jesus is not the creator. God created all things “by him and for him (he is God's heir). In Genesis we have the record that God created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 1:3 states:
Quote 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; I believe that the latter scripture pretty well summarizes what I have stated.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Very well put. I could not agree more.To all…………Jesus is the fulfillment of GOD the Fathers Plan for (ALL) the human RACE. He is the (FIRST) Perfected MAN from Mankind. The first Born into the Kingdom of God FROM MANKIND, The (FIRST) raised to eternal Life from the GRAVE, FROM MANKIND.
Peace and love to you all……………………….gene
By the way where is our brother Mike at?
Gene,
I think he said that I could have all the “fun”.
I aksed before but is there anyplace that “outlines” this “plan”? Or is this plan the same as the “Gospel”?
I know that Jesus is part of an Eternal Covenant with God.
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
The Professor
I still want someone to deal with the actual Greek meaning of Phil 2.
Who BEGINNING in the form of God……EMPTIED HIMSELF…… and was BEGOTTEN in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.
Let's take it one capped word at a time.
ov ……………………………who
en …………………………….in
morfh ………………………..form
yeou …………………………[of] God
uparcwn (5723)………beginningThat is how Phil 2:6 starts in the actual Greek. And this is what that 5th word that I bolded means in the Greek:
huparcho
1) to begin below, to make a beginning
1a) to begin
2) to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand
3) to beNow it's very hard to find a translation that uses the word “beginning” instead of “being” or “existing” for what I think is a very simple reason. 99% of Bibles are translated by admitted trinitarians, and they will go out of their way to avoid any word phrases that would be linked to Jesus having a beginning of any kind at all.
I did, however find one translation that uses “beginning”, although they do change the words around a bit to avoid the “Jesus began” problem:
Philippians 2:6 Weymouth New Testament
Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.You can see they add “from the” in front of “beginning” and further their trinitarian doctrine by implying that Jesus had “equality with God”. But suppose they just stuck to the Greek words.
Does it change anyone's mind at all to know that the Greek words actually say, “Who, BEGINNING in the form of God…..”?
peace and love,
mikeMike………..Brother your grabbing for straws brother, you can't eve prove what beginning Paul was talking about was it His beginning on Earth, if so that would back up what we none Preexistences are saying. Scripture supports Pauls was talking abut Jesus beginning on earth as a Human being with the Nature of GOD (IN) Him. Now with all these confusions you are postulating that should show you your proof text is not much Proof, right Brother?.
peace and love brother………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 30 2010,15:36) you can't eve prove what beginning Paul was talking about was it His beginning on Earth,
Hi Gene,Why don't you just keep the opinions and slams to yourself, okay? All they do is show that you can't answer with scripture, so you must try to attack or belittle me personally, like Martian does. It really speaks more against you than against me, brother.
You do bring up a good point though. What “beginning” WAS Paul talking about? Was it at Jesus' conception that he was thought to be “in the form of God”? Or was it from his birth as a human? Or was it when he was baptized? Tell me which “beginning” YOU think Paul meant, please.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,16:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 30 2010,15:36) you can't eve prove what beginning Paul was talking about was it His beginning on Earth,
Hi Gene,Why don't you just keep the opinions and slams to yourself, okay? All they do is show that you can't answer with scripture, so you must try to attack or belittle me personally, like Martian does. It really speaks more against you than against me, brother.
You do bring up a good point though. What “beginning” WAS Paul talking about? Was it at Jesus' conception that he was thought to be “in the form of God”? Or was it from his birth as a human? Or was it when he was baptized? Tell me which “beginning” YOU think Paul meant, please.
mike
Mike you are so right, I read this and shake my head. When they can't answer they attack you….. Not to smart…..Keep up the good work, I am with you…..Peace IreneQuote (martian @ Aug. 31 2010,01:11) HERE HE COMES TO SAVE THE DAY — THAT MEANS THAT MONKEY TIME IS ON THE WAY……
Good one Martian…….I'm laughing on the inside.
Would you care to actually deal with the words that are in the scripture? It says:
Who BEGINNING in the form of God…….EMPTIED HIMSELF…..and was BEGOTTEN in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.
Gene and I are trying to work through just the first capped word right now. He thinks Paul spoke of a “beginning” that happened while Jesus was flesh……….what do YOU think?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,02:22) Mike you are so right, I read this and shake my head. When they can't answer they attack you….. Not to smart…..Keep up the good work, I am with you…..Peace Irene
Thank you Irene! Ditto to you.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,10:52) Quote (martian @ Aug. 31 2010,01:11) HERE HE COMES TO SAVE THE DAY — THAT MEANS THAT MONKEY TIME IS ON THE WAY……
Good one Martian…….I'm laughing on the inside. Would you care to actually deal with the words that are in the scripture? It says:
Who BEGINNING in the form of God…….EMPTIED HIMSELF…..and was BEGOTTEN in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.
Gene and I are trying to work through just the first capped word right now. He thinks Paul spoke of a “beginning” that happened while Jesus was flesh……….what do YOU think?
peace and love,
mike
MIke……….Do you have a Greek linear translation , Look it up it actually say who (existing) in the form or Nature of GOD. Paul was not talking about before Jesus' Berth on earth , He was telling people about Jesus time when he was on earth . This should be simple for you to understand just from the context of what Paul was saying.Mike if you can't even understand this then what chance is there of going on to other verses. Paul was describing Jesus' life on earth and telling us we need to be like he was with a humbly spirit. Come on surely you can understand this brother.
peace and love ……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2010,01:07) MIke……….Do you have a Greek linear translation , Look it up it actually say who (existing) in the form or Nature of GOD.
Gene,Did you miss this? THIS BELOW is what the word CAN mean in Greek. Do you deny this? It is from NETBible, but you can find the same definitions on Online Bible Study Tools. It doesn't really matter what English word YOUR Greek Interlinear CHOSE to render it as. I'm pointing out that the word COULD mean “BEGINNING”.
huparcho
1) to begin below, to make a beginning
1a) to begin
2) to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand
3) to bemike
Mike………Just as well as it (COULD) mean the other meanings offered, SO YOU FORCE THE TEXT TO FIT YOUR DESIRED MEANINGS. That is my Point , and them you call this (PROOF). this is suppose to (PROVE) Your right? When it flies in the face of other scriptures that show GOD ALONE AND BY HIMSELF CREATED EVERYTHING.. Paul told the Bereans to search the scriptures to see if what they were being to was true or not, and the (ONLY) scriptures they had was the OLD TESTAMENT, so if what you and other preexistences and trinitarians are saying does not fit the OLD TESTAMENT, then it must not be true, PREEXISTENCE DOES (NOT) FIT THE OLD TESTAMENT AT ALL. IMO
Another Point not discussed here if Jesus preexisted why did Peter not know that when He said he was FOREORDAINED (BUT) was MANIFESTED in OUR time. No where in any scripture does it even hint at Jesus living as a live being prior to his berth on earth, why is ther not activity mentioned anywhere in scripture about what he was or was doing , not one mention not name offered or no activity of the person ever mentioned in scripture.
Mike you have bought into the Lie about Jesus offered by THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, it is a Lie and turns Jesus into the MAN OD SIN, SPOKEN OF IN 2Ths 2, Preexistence is only a support dogmas for Trinitarians. It came from ancient paganism belief of the Greeks and Romans and even the Egyptians, These ideologies infected the Church and Corrupted it bringing about the Apostate religions of today falsely called Christianity, Brother you are partaking in their false teachings, the same way the Gnostic's were.
Mike we are told to come OUT of Her, this “MYSTERY RELIGION” that has infected most all so called “Christians” and they recieve there share of Plagues as a result. One of which is blindness from the truth and all kind of other Paranoias also. The Jesus “Christendom” offer is a LIE. It is most definitely Antichrist. God took from humanity a man and conformed him into His Son, he did not (MORPH) anyone Mike. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,15:42) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2010,01:07) MIke……….Do you have a Greek linear translation , Look it up it actually say who (existing) in the form or Nature of GOD.
Gene,Did you miss this? THIS BELOW is what the word CAN mean in Greek. Do you deny this? It is from NETBible, but you can find the same definitions on Online Bible Study Tools. It doesn't really matter what English word YOUR Greek Interlinear CHOSE to render it as. I'm pointing out that the word COULD mean “BEGINNING”.
huparcho
1) to begin below, to make a beginning
1a) to begin
2) to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand
3) to bemike
Hi Mike,Col.3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of
holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Don't let them take away your dew! (Deuteronomy 32:1-4)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHere is some words from Cyril about the way the Word of God is said to have been emptied:
Quote 5. In what way the Word of God is said to have been emptied. God the Word full by nature and in every way Perfect, and distributing out of His own Fullness His own goods to the creature, we say was emptied: in no wise wronged in His own Proper Nature, nor changed so as to become otherwise, nor made in ought inferior, for inconvertible and unchangeable is Himself also even as He Who begat Him, and never may He be capable of passion. But when He was made Flesh, i.e. Man, He made (as He said, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh) the poverty of human nature His own; first, in that He was once made man, albeit He remained God; next in that He took the form of a servant, Who is in His own Nature free, as Son, and while He is Himself the Lord of glory He is said to receive glory: Himself Life, He is said to be quickened: and receives power over all, Himself King of all and with God, and Ho was obedient to the Father, suffered the Cross and so on. But these things befit the measure of the human nature, yet He makes them His own with flesh and fulfils the economy, remaining what He was.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1
The writings of Cyril (died in 444 A.D.), even on this webpage, has much to say that would be of interest here. One ought to read through the page. It mentions 'God the Word' over and over.
Jesus doesn't call the Holy Spirit “Father” because the Holy Spirit is feminine. He said he would send us the Comforter, Counselor, Helper and She would dwell in us.
The Holy Spirit has as one of her traits/essences, YHWH's Spirit. Thus when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive YHWH.
And Jesus who received the Holy Spirit at his baptism, which was separate from the Father, sends us this same Spirit so all are one together in unity.
Mat 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
The Spirit in Jesus is not the person (Father) in Heaven speaking.
Spirit Elohim (feminine) is a separate “person” Gen 1:2 from YHWH Elohim (masculine) in Gen 2:4.Both of them comprise Elohim (God) of Gen 1:1.
We know that there are these two essences because of Gen 1:27.
We read that Jesus emptied his Godly form to take on a humanly form. We also see that God sent His son to be our Salvation..by dying on the cross.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 03 2010,07:59) Here is some words from Cyril about the way the Word of God is said to have been emptied: Quote 5. In what way the Word of God is said to have been emptied. God the Word full by nature and in every way Perfect, and distributing out of His own Fullness His own goods to the creature, we say was emptied: in no wise wronged in His own Proper Nature, nor changed so as to become otherwise, nor made in ought inferior, for inconvertible and unchangeable is Himself also even as He Who begat Him, and never may He be capable of passion. But when He was made Flesh, i.e. Man, He made (as He said, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh) the poverty of human nature His own; first, in that He was once made man, albeit He remained God; next in that He took the form of a servant, Who is in His own Nature free, as Son, and while He is Himself the Lord of glory He is said to receive glory: Himself Life, He is said to be quickened: and receives power over all, Himself King of all and with God, and Ho was obedient to the Father, suffered the Cross and so on. But these things befit the measure of the human nature, yet He makes them His own with flesh and fulfils the economy, remaining what He was.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1
The writings of Cyril (died in 444 A.D.), even on this webpage, has much to say that would be of interest here. One ought to read through the page. It mentions 'God the Word' over and over.
Hi Kathi,I'm glad you enjoy reading the early Christian's writings. I generally only read of them what you or WJ post. While I know that we can learn some of how the Greek words were understood by their writings, we have to remember they are just men and offer the opinions and interpretations of just men. They are not said to be inspired of God like the scriptures, so I don't put too much faith in how they interpret the scriptures.
It is very comforting to me to know that every one of them that I've read about seems to agree that Jesus was the “firstborn of all creation” before the world even existed, and that blows a big hole in the trinitarian/non-preexister belief that “prototokos pas ktisis” meant “preeminent over mankind”.
The thing is that they have NO proof whatsoever to support their claim, while you keep posting early church fathers that agree with what the Greek words actually mean, and with how you and I understand scripture.
I would like to point out that if Cyril wrote what he did in the Greek language, he is NOT writing “God the Word”, but “god the word”.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 03 2010,00:58) Mike………Just as well as it (COULD) mean the other meanings offered, SO YOU FORCE THE TEXT TO FIT YOUR DESIRED MEANINGS.
Hi Gene,Good! So now we both know that it COULD mean your choice or mine, right? Yet you say if I choose my way, I am “forcing the scriptures”. I could say the same thing about you then, couldn't I?
Okay, the “beginning” word was just to get you primed anyway. Here's the good part……..ready?
KJV
But
made
himself
of no reputation (5656)
and took upon him (5631)
the form
of a servant
and was made (5637)
in
the likeness
of menOkay Gene, now let's just deal with the last part that I bolded.
AND WAS MADE: Strong #1096, which is the word “ginomai” which means:
1096 ginomai
to cause to be (“gen”-erate)
to become (come into being)I'll tell you also that “ginomai” is the root word for “monogenes”, which we all know means “only begotten”.
IN: Strong #1722 which is the word “en” which you already know means “in” in this context, right?
THE LIKENESS: Strong #3666 which is the word “homoioma” which means:
homoioma
1) that which has been made after the likeness of somethingOF MEN: Strong #444 which is the word “anthropos” which means:
anthropos
1) a human being, whether male or femaleSo let's put the bolded word defintions all together to form the last 11 words of the sentence.
AND CAME INTO BEING IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING
There's the Greek words and the Strong #'s for them and the definitions of what they mean, Gene. Go to town, brother. Research it. See what you come up with, because all together it says that Jesus WAS in the form of God, but emptied himself and BECAME in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.
ps….Please just answer to the info in the post Gene. You don't need to add in the two or three paragraphs about how I might as well become a trinitarian and about your wishes for Jesus to be just like you. JUST ANSWER THE INFO IN THE POST DIRECTLY, PLEASE.
peace and love,
mike
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