Phillipians 2

[GeneBalthrop]

martian……….If they would get the Book Misquoting Jesus they would see where Scholars have brought out many, many, many. Mistranslated scriptures from the original texts that have been found. What i have found is that if it does not align with the Old Testament it generally is a mistranslation by some predisposed translator forcing the text to meet his religious beliefs. Simple reasoning would tell anyone if it does not meet what is written in the Old Testament there is a problem with the text. IMO

peace and love to you and yours martian. I have ask our Father to help you with your diabetic problem brother…………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Bump for Gene:

12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15He is the image of the invisible God,…….

Can we agree that 12 and 13 are about God? But at the end of 13, Paul talks about God's Son, and 14 is all about Jesus. Do you see it that way so far Gene?

peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………..I follow you, on this i have no disagreement with the possibility of 14, i believe it is Still talking about GOD the Father , because we are forgiven by God of our Sins, not forgiven by Jesus. Because i believe Jesus was GOD the FATHERS SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, But no biggie i am following you so Far. Continue Mike

peace and love…………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Okay Gene, let's continue then.

1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,  

1:16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.

1:17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.

1:18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.

It seems clear to me that 15-18 are all about Jesus, but for sure 15 is, right?  And for sure verse 18 is since it says “the firstborn from among the dead”, right?

Do you agree that both 15 and 18 are about the Son?

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………..Go back up to the Start for whom and through Whom was ALL thing Made, Jesus is the (IMAGE) a reflection , not a GOD or a Creator of anything. Verse 16 is simply saying all thing were created (IN) Him it was GOD Plan from the beginning to create all thing (FOR) this purpose of Jesus and the Saints and all humanity. That was why He created everything like it is. Notice we are said to share in the inheritance of the Saints, and other scriptures say we are JOINT Heirs with Christ. Now what are we being Heirs to , is it not the same thing Jesus had become Heir to. No where does these scripture put Jesus as Preexisting His berth on earth. The word there Trough as i said before is (FOR) .

Mike brother you have no idea how these false teaching screw up the mind when it comes to Jesus and His relationship with us and GOD the FATHER. I implore you to dump these false teachings and come to realize there is only one GOD and One Creator of ALL things and NO other . I tried to tell you to compare the Old Testament with the thing they are saying the New Testament say and you will find these teachings of Jesus preexistence and the Trinity are both in error brother. The new testament has been corrupted by many translators who were indoctrinated into the false teaching of the apostate Churches. IMO

peace and love……………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

MIke……..As being the beginning , Jesus is the beginning of the Kingdom of GOD in Mankind, He is the first (BORN) of mankind into that Kingdom Just as it says from among the dead. None of this is talking about a preexistence. IMO

peace and love……………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Gene,

This was the only question I asked:

Do you agree that both 15 and 18 are about the Son?

Would you do me the solid of actually answering the question?

thanks,
mike

[Baker]

Mike! It is so amazing that 25 posts later and the Question you asked in Post 1 is still not answered…. Round and round I go, where I stop nobody knows….:D
I just also want to make you and others aware that when you see a post not signed, it is Georg, while I always sign mine…..Peace Irene

[Ed J]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,06:15)

Mike!  It is so amazing that 25 posts later and the Question you asked in Post 1 is still not answered…. Round and round I go, where I stop nobody knows….:D  I just also want to make you and others aware that when you see a post not signed, it is Georg, while I always sign mine…..Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

There are 25 Pages of Posts, not 25 Posts.

No wonder you have trouble understanding
“The Word” is the “HolySpirit”. (Click Here)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2010,10:49)

Hi All, This thread is ONLY for discussing whether or not Phillipians 2 implies Jesus pre-existed. Please don't post your opinions on the matter as a whole, but limit them ONLY to your understanding of Phil 2. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing,      taking the form of a servant,      being made in human likeness. I say it's clear evidence of Jesus' pre-existence.  What say you all? mike

Hi Mike,

Philip.2:5-7 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Luke 1:35)
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He put himself lower than us by dying for us,
paradoxically that put's him above us; Biblically speaking.

Mark 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them,
If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Philip. 2:6-7 presents a weak case for preexistence; sorry.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,06:15)

Mike!  It is so amazing that 25 posts later and the Question you asked in Post 1 is still not answered…. Round and round I go, where I stop nobody knows….:D  I just also want to make you and others aware that when you see a post not signed, it is Georg, while I always sign mine…..Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Yeah, it's wearing thin for me by now.  Every scripture I post, their defense is the same.  Psycho-babble about this word really meant that and “it COULD be taken this way”.   I'm giving up for a while.  After being called dishonest and a monkey it finally dawned on me that it doesn't change my life in any way whatsoever if Martian and Gene and Marty and barley choose to believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist.

I think I was taking it personally at first, because it seems so clear to me……I couldn't see why they couldn't see it.  So I thought maybe if I just explained it more clearly than it had been before……….     Well, you see the results! I'm older and much more worn down…..all for not.

peace and love,
mike

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2010,12:13)

Gene, This was the only question I asked: Do you agree that both 15 and 18 are about the Son? Would you do me the solid of actually answering the question? thanks, mike

Mike,

Some help in responding to the concerns of v14 re: redemption and who “He” is referring to (JC):

Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

1Cr 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Hbr 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Phl 2:6 who, although “He existed” in the “form of God”, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

“Form” is not a reflection.
He existed is in the past, BEFORE he became man.
When did he exist in the form of God?  Before he existed in the form of Man.

Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the “form” of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Form is not a reflection as some care to delude themselves with.

As Georg says, the information is all there…..

The Professor

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2010,18:47)

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 26 2010,06:15) Mike!  It is so amazing that 25 posts later and the Question you asked in Post 1 is still not answered…. Round and round I go, where I stop nobody knows….:D  I just also want to make you and others aware that when you see a post not signed, it is Georg, while I always sign mine…..Peace Irene Hi Irene, Yeah, it's wearing thin for me by now.  Every scripture I post, their defense is the same.  Psycho-babble about this word really meant that and “it COULD be taken this way”.   I'm giving up for a while.  After being called dishonest and a monkey it finally dawned on me that it doesn't change my life in any way whatsoever if Martian and Gene and Marty and barley choose to believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist. I think I was taking it personally at first, because it seems so clear to me……I couldn't see why they couldn't see it.  So I thought maybe if I just explained it more clearly than it had been before……….        Well, you see the results!  I'm older and much more worn down…..all for not. peace and love, mike

Mike,
I can relate to that post! Everybody has their perspective and it really is about having eyes to see and ears to hear and that ability isn't going to come from a well written post but by the testimony of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. There is only one true testimony about the Son of God but we see several different 'testimonies' here and only one can be from the Holy Spirit.

HN is more about satisfying your own heart. Hang in there. K

[mikeboll64]

Your turn for a go Professor Fun.

Have at them. I have been beaten down by their ignorance to the point of no return……..well, at least to the point that I need a break.

Have fun,
mike

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2010,19:07)

Your turn for a go Professor Fun. Have at them.  I have been beaten down by their ignorance to the point of no return……..well, at least to the point that I need a break.   Have fun, mike

Mike,

It is hard to have “fun” when the people can't read a sentence.

Col 1:13(b)-14 and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Obviously in these verses and 15-18 is talking about God's son = Jesus.  What is so hard about identifying this?

In the OT I have trouble because I don't know when, in the middle of a sentence, the person changes.  In the NT it doesn't do that.

But as Shimmer asked, “What is truth?”

But, I must admit, in my younger days I was blinded by my “famous” teachers and their assurances that what they said was “true”.

Now, I trust the Bible, so, when others don't want to believe the Bible, I, too, must leave it up to God and the Holy Spirit to do their work:

Jesus in Phil 2:6ff existed in the form of God; and form of servant. Reflections? Roles? Spirits?

Isa 55:11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

The Professor

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2010,11:07)

Your turn for a go Professor Fun. Have at them.  I have been beaten down by their ignorance to the point of no return……..well, at least to the point that I need a break.   Have fun, mike

Getting out before you are defeated more?

[davidbfun]

Pro 12:23 A prudent man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims folly.

Pro 1:22 “How long, O simple ones ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?

Pro 1:28-29 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently but they will not find me, Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

[davidbfun]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 27 2010,12:40)

Pro 12:23 A prudent man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims folly. Pro 1:22 “How long, O simple ones ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?   Pro 1:28-29 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently but they will not find me, Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

Oops, forgot to add this in my previous post.

Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 08 2010,08:13)

Hi SF: This what the NIV states, and Barley also posted some pretty defineing scriptures relative to the intent of these scriptures: Quote Philippians 2 (New International Version) Philippians 2 Imitating Christ's Humility 1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature[a] God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing,      taking the very nature of a servant,      being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man,      he humbled himself      and became obedient to death You say: Quote the whole intent of Paul message was this 1:27Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; BEING ONE! BEING ON ONE ACCORD! HUMBLING TO EACHOTHER! This is what happens when you SKIP scriptures because you forget the actual intent and context of the scriptures. And so, how is discussing Preexistence accomplishing this.  How many pages are in this thread? And so, yes, I believe I am going to end this nonsense, by asking you to show me by the scriptures where it is stated “by the scriptures” that “he was Christ Jesus before he was born into this world”, and no, he was not the creator.  God created everything knowing that a particular point in time his plan for this world would be fulfilled by him and through him. When was he Christ Jesus? Quote # Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Matthew 1 Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. This is a plain and simple statement as to when he was Christ Jesus.   Show me where in the scriptures he is said to be Christ Jesus prior to his birth into this world. How do the following scriptures say that he preexisted his birth into this world?  You accuse me of posting scriptures out of context. Quote Hebrews 13 1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. 7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. Either show me where the scriptures say that he was Christ Jesus before his birth into this world or end this foolish speculation because without scriptures to justify your theory as you see this is an endless discussion. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Numbers,

IT took me a very long time to find this response you made for me.
But finally i get to respond.
My Dear numbers, i think in a way i understand you now.
but i believe we do not understand eachother.
Im saying that Jesus is the Creator because before hand he a was the WORD who became flesh as Christ Jesus.  
Scriputrs specfically state that first of all that Jesus does not Change.
Second that he is the Word.
This is why i say that Jesus pre-existed, but not as litearlly Jesus but as the Word.  
The Word did exist in the Beggining and after that became Flesh.
Philipians and collosians unites those TWO ideas to express that Christ preexisted.
So let me rephrase and re summarize This so i can make sure you get what im saying.

Claim: Jesus Preexisted according to scriptures.

1. In the Beggining was the Word
We know that the Word existed in the very beginning and is responsible for creating everything according to John
John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And He was also Life.  This Word is said to be in the beginning in Genesis.  Whether it was from through or by or delegated, the point is that the Word Created.
This is of course before Sin, before the existance of Evil. So we know that EVERYTHING was Good. according to Genesis.

2. the Word made Flesh
We know that Jesus is the Word made flesh because of this Scripture.
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
  15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
  16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
  17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The word was made Flesh, and dwelt amoung us, full of grace and truth,  and that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
We know that Christ had a former glory.
For we know that Jesus humbled himself to become in the likness of men, so therefore this proves that at one point he was something other than Human. and Before birth.
This is the Humility which is part of Christ's mind.
We are to be like him, yet ironically like his testimony how he became in the likeness of man for our sakes.

3. Jesus IS the Word and Creator
We know that Jesus is this word Through two books that speak of him in such a manner.
Collossians 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
  14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
  15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
  16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
  17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
  18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
  19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
  20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

and Philipians2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
  6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
  7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
  8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
  9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
  10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
  11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Point being that Through these two chapters we can see one thing that Jesus preexisted.
It is clear though he was NOT Jesus Christ exactly named YET, he still existed as the WORD.

Whether he had a different name or not CHRIST in a sense did exist.

If your argueing that the Word wasnt Christ until he existed. that would be faulty, because the day that Sin started is the day the Son of God had the purpose to REDEEM.

we also know the Son created.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 Hebrew1: 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

  10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

[942767]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 27 2010,11:03)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 08 2010,08:13) Hi SF: This what the NIV states, and Barley also posted some pretty defineing scriptures relative to the intent of these scriptures: Quote Philippians 2 (New International Version) Philippians 2 Imitating Christ's Humility 1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature[a] God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing,      taking the very nature of a servant,      being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man,      he humbled himself      and became obedient to death You say: Quote the whole intent of Paul message was this 1:27Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; BEING ONE! BEING ON ONE ACCORD! HUMBLING TO EACHOTHER! This is what happens when you SKIP scriptures because you forget the actual intent and context of the scriptures. And so, how is discussing Preexistence accomplishing this.  How many pages are in this thread? And so, yes, I believe I am going to end this nonsense, by asking you to show me by the scriptures where it is stated “by the scriptures” that “he was Christ Jesus before he was born into this world”, and no, he was not the creator.  God created everything knowing that a particular point in time his plan for this world would be fulfilled by him and through him. When was he Christ Jesus? Quote # Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Matthew 1 Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. This is a plain and simple statement as to when he was Christ Jesus.   Show me where in the scriptures he is said to be Christ Jesus prior to his birth into this world. How do the following scriptures say that he preexisted his birth into this world?  You accuse me of posting scriptures out of context. Quote Hebrews 13 1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. 7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. Either show me where the scriptures say that he was Christ Jesus before his birth into this world or end this foolish speculation because without scriptures to justify your theory as you see this is an endless discussion. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Numbers, IT took me a very long time to find this response you made for me. But finally i get to respond. My Dear numbers, i think in a way i understand you now. but i believe we do not understand eachother. Im saying that Jesus is the Creator because before hand he a was the WORD who became flesh as Christ Jesus.   Scriputrs specfically state that first of all that Jesus does not Change. Second that he is the Word. This is why i say that Jesus pre-existed, but not as litearlly Jesus but as the Word.   The Word did exist in the Beggining and after that became Flesh. Philipians and collosians unites those TWO ideas to express that Christ preexisted. So let me rephrase and re summarize This so i can make sure you get what im saying. Claim: Jesus Preexisted according to scriptures. 1. In the Beggining was the Word We know that the Word existed in the very beginning and is responsible for creating everything according to John John 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And He was also Life.  This Word is said to be in the beginning in Genesis.  Whether it was from through or by or delegated, the point is that the Word Created. This is of course before Sin, before the existance of Evil. So we know that EVERYTHING was Good. according to Genesis. 2. the Word made Flesh We know that Jesus is the Word made flesh because of this Scripture. 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.   14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.   15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.   16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.   17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The word was made Flesh, and dwelt amoung us, full of grace and truth,  and that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. We know that Christ had a former glory. For we know that Jesus humbled himself to become in the likness of men, so therefore this proves that at one poi nt he was something other than Human. and Before birth. This is the Humility which is part of Christ's mind. We are to be like him, yet ironically like his testimony how he became in the likeness of man for our sakes. 3. Jesus IS the Word and Creator We know that Jesus is this word Through two books that speak of him in such a manner. Collossians 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:   14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:   15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.   19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;   20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. and Philipians2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:   7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:   8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.   9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:   10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;   11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Point being that Through these two chapters we can see one thing that Jesus preexisted. It is clear though he was NOT Jesus Christ exactly named YET, he still existed as the WORD. Whether he had a different name or not CHRIST in a sense did exist. If your argueing that the Word wasnt Christ until he existed. that would be faulty, because the day that Sin started is the day the Son of God had the purpose to REDEEM. we also know the Son created. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.  Hebrew1: 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.   10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Hi SF:

I have given my understanding on this, and so, I will just leave it at that.

Both you and I are accountable to God for what we teach.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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