Phillipians 2

Blocked

Hi barley,

I don't understand you guys either. What's going on here? When I read the Bible, this passage (along with many others) clearly said to me that Jesus pre-existed.

I'm not ignoring select words in the verses, but just pointing out the ones that undoubtedly speak of a pre-existence. And now that I've delved deeper into it and know what the Greek words used actually mean, I'm even more convinced – not less. (That's why I love HN…..it causes us all to check and double check our beliefs.)

If you don't agree, that's okay. But, just once more, it actually says:

Who, beginning in the form of God……..emptied himself…….and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.

How do you think everything came to exist through Christ if he wasn't around until Mary birthed him?

And it's weak IMO to play the “name change” game, like saying, “he wasn't actually the Christ then, so how can that apply to him?” Because scripture plainly explains that:

Jesus=Messiah=Christ=Word of God=only begotten Son of God=Son of Man=Immanuel=Jehovah is our Righteousness=the one pierced for our transgressions=Lord of Lords=King of kings, etc. Just because he was called different things at different times during his existence does not change the fact that all of these names refer to only one person. And through that one person, we all exist.

peace and love,
mike

August 7, 2010 at 3:29 am#207966

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 06 2010,14:55)

Oh, I know, “All things are possible to those who believe”, and so, go on believing what you will, Mike, but there is no scripture to support what you are indicating “that Jesus submitted himself to be begotten of human flesh”.

Hi Marty,

Yes, there is. It is the one we've been discussing. And it directly says what you say no scripture says:

Jesus “emptied himself” and was “begotten” in the likeness of a “human being”.

Believe what you want Marty. I hope to see you in the next thread………I think John 17:5.

peace and love,
mike

August 8, 2010 at 2:13 am#208076

Participant

Hi Kerwin:

You say the following relative to Jesus:

Quote

Deuteronomy 14:1, even though no human being has the spirit outside the new covenant, Jeremiah 31:33. Jesus being the mediator is the only exception and I am not sure you can say that he was ever outside the new covenant.

First of all, the prophets did have the spirit but they were not born again. Jesus was a Son of God under the Law, and did not sin under the Law, and thus declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead (Romans 1) haveing obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Quote

Galatians 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

We who are born again, have been raised from the dead by the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, and He will lead us into all truths in the Word of God, but He is our helper. He is not a dictator, and when we are born again, we are new born babies in Christ, and as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives we will hopefully eventually reach maturity.

I believe that you are correct in stating that in any event sin occurred when we yielded to the temptation, but there is a difference as you can see and I believe that you have acknowledged between this and practicing sin wilfully.

Please let me know if there is anything else that we may need to discuss to come into unity in our understanding of God's Word.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 8, 2010 at 3:13 am#208078

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 06 2010,16:10)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 06 2010,08:26)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:26)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2010,09:00)

Also, Mike, as I have already stated, and Barley also stated, the scripture states: “being in the form of God”, that is present tense, and also, if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?

The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility, and Jesus is our example. The scripture states: “let this mind be in you which also was in Christ Jesus”. When was he Christ Jesus, Mike?

Also, if you need help with the Greek word, maybe Jack or Kieth can help, since they are the Greek scholars. I don't believe that I need the Greek to figure out what the Apostle Paul meant by this scripture.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Numbers/marty,

It seems that your debating with Mike, I just wanted to be nosy and jump in and make an unoffical tag team.
How can you agrue present tense and have any sense Numbers?
look Numbers, if thats true than this verse is also present tense

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So his obediance to the cross is also present tense?
how do you presently make no reputation?
obviously this is all past tense, at any tense of sense.

You Said:

Quote

how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?

IT was not part of his example of humility, but part of the discription of Christ's Gospel. This is about who Christ is period.
he talked about the beginning of Christ, the middle and the End which results in this verse.

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
thats the conclusion.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

When Paul mentioned WHO-WHOM, it was a manner of describing facts about Jesus, not about humility.
The mind of what is in Christ, is the gospel, the Word. Humility is part of that, not the whole picture.

Just like this for example, “We should strive to be like the president WHOM grew up in a poor neighborhood and no matter what came his way, he worked hard to become the president.”

Hi SF:

First of all, I am not debating anyone. Mike asked me a question, and I have given him my understanding, and I am not debating you either, but I will also give you my understanding.

Present tense from the standpoint of the Apostle referring to the ministry of Jesus while he was here on earth.

And I can't see how you can say that the point of these scriptures was not that the Apostle Paul was teaching the church of humility. Of course, there is much more to the gospel or the example of Christ to born again believers. We as born again believers are supposed to be following in his footsteps.

However, in these particular scriptures the Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility.

Quote

Phil2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; butin lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:(Also, please don't ignore this question. When was he Christ Jesus? This most definitely identifies what follows in the verses following to mean his ministry on earth)

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Numbers,

Debating- discussing, whatever its the same thing.
You make a point, than you refute it, blah blah blah, the same.
How can you mention the standpoint of the Apostle, are you THE Apostle Paul? Who said it was here on earth?

Show me where in this passage says the word humility? or earth?

Im saying that the teachings of being Christlike INCLUDES humility, that the center of his teachings is not humility, its an attribute that is part of his character but not his only characteristic.

I can disprove your philoshpy easily.
verse one and two of philipians 2 talk about what? THE SAME ACCORD.
AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER.

lets repeats its very clear.

until verse 3 being ” lowliness of mind ” (not humility) is expressed.

verse 4? let a man not only worry about his things but the things of others.

obviously the first 4 verses of this scripture is not TALKING ABOUT HUMILITY.
but talking about being CHRISTLIKE.
dont desire to be humble, desire to be christlike WHO IS HUMBLE.
humility is the result of following christ.
this is why he said let this MIND (not humility, not lowliness of mind) be in you, which was the same mind that was in Christ.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
which continued in giving historical FACTS about Jesus and his testimony which is the GOSPEL.

the whole intent of Paul message was this

1:27Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

BEING ONE! BEING ON ONE ACCORD! HUMBLING TO EACHOTHER!

This is what happens when you SKIP scriptures because you forget the actual intent and context of the scriptures.

To answer your Question:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Ill let the scriptures end your nonsense.

answer this question do you follow Christ Jesus?
If so?
If he is presently christ Jesus, does that also mean he was christ Jesus when he was flesh?
If so?
Who is to say he wasnt before,
Did his personality change in any sense before?

Isnt it true that Christ Jesus is the creator of this world according to Collossians?

Thats clear.

Hi SF:

This what the NIV states, and Barley also posted some pretty defineing scriptures relative to the intent of these scriptures:

Quote

Philippians 2 (New International Version)

Philippians 2
Imitating Christ's Humility
1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death

You say:

Quote

the whole intent of Paul message was this

BEING ONE! BEING ON ONE ACCORD! HUMBLING TO EACHOTHER!

This is what happens when you SKIP scriptures because you forget the actual intent and context of the scriptures.

And so, how is discussing Preexistence accomplishing this. How many pages are in this thread?

And so, yes, I believe I am going to end this nonsense, by asking you to show me by the scriptures where it is stated “by the scriptures” that “he was Christ Jesus before he was born into this world”, and no, he was not the creator. God created everything knowing that a particular point in time his plan for this world would be fulfilled by him and through him.

When was he Christ Jesus?

Quote

# Matthew 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Matthew 1
Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

This is a plain and simple statement as to when he was Christ Jesus.

Show me where in the scriptures he is said to be Christ Jesus prior to his birth into this world.

How do the following scriptures say that he preexisted his birth into this world? You accuse me of posting scriptures out of context.

Quote

Hebrews 13

1Let brotherly love continue.

2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

3Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

9Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Either show me where the scriptures say that he was Christ Jesus before his birth into this world or end this foolish speculation because without scriptures to justify your theory as you see this is an endless discussion.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 8, 2010 at 3:59 am#208080

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2010,14:29)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 06 2010,14:55)

Hi Marty,

Yes, there is. It is the one we've been discussing. And it directly says what you say no scripture says:

Jesus “emptied himself” and was “begotten” in the likeness of a “human being”.

Believe what you want Marty. I hope to see you in the next thread………I think John 17:5.

peace and love,
mike

Hi Mike:

That is not the way that the KJV reads, and although there are errors in the KJV, I believe that it overall it is the most accurate translation of the orginal manuscripts.

I do not believe that a Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. You are seeking to make them say that he did, but I don't understand these scriptures to say that he pre-existed.

You also can teach what you will, both you and I are accountable to God for what we say that he said.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 8, 2010 at 1:50 pm#208099

Participant

Quote (barley @ Aug. 07 2010,12:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,11:54)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,02:54)

Mike………..Paul was talking about a (existence of a past event) when Jesus existed on earth before his assent He existed in the (form or nature ) of God because God was (IN) Him , but he did not try to be equal with Him because he was a man and not a GOD and He Know that even though GOD was (IN) HIM. So he took the position as a Servant because that what he was, He did not seek an equality with GOD and thereby (ROBBING) GOD of his Glory, Just as it says “I HAVE GLORIFIED (YOU) ON THE EARTH” < NOT HIMSELF.

When are you going to accept these things, you are holding on tho a preconceived Ideology fostered by preexistences and is not scripturally factual. You trying it use this as some proof text is in error brother.

You have lost this one now go on the the next text to support your beliefs in Jesus preexistence brother.

peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………..gene

Here Gene,

Let me make it REALLY clear what I have been asking and what you guys can't answer.

Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?

Do you hear what I'm yelling? He was “begotten” in the form of a human being after he emptied himself. How is that possible if he already WAS a human being at the time?

Who, beginning in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, and took on the form of a slave, and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.”

Now every word I used above is a valid definition of the actual Greek word used. Knowing this, please answer my second question DIRECTLY.

IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON THAT THE GREEK WORDS COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEM TO MEAN? YES OR NO. If the answer is “NO”, please tell me why it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Is there any scripture that tells you directly that MY UNDERSTANDING of what Phil 2 means is IMPOSSIBLE? Please answer this Gene! I need to either see the scripture that makes my understanding IMPOSSIBLE, or I need you to acknowledge that the words COULD ACTUALLY MEAN WHAT I THINK THEY DO.

ONE OR THE OTHER PLEASE. IF YOU CANNOT DIRECTLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, DON'T BOTHER POSTING YOUR OPINIONS TO ME. EITHER ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I'VE ASKED, OR DON'T POST TO ME AT ALL.

You see Gene, I completely understood your first flawed opinion that Paul was saying Jesus NOW exists in the form of God. But you realized that one didn't add up with the rest of the scripture, so you dropped it.

And I also completely understand your assertion that Paul was saying Jesus could have “lorded it over” people that he was God's “special” Son, but chose not to. That one is actually plausible if you reach far enough and use the exact combination of definitions of the Greek words to make it fit. But it is a FAR REACH to come to that understanding based on those Greek words; especially when you have to find a way to do away with the “was made in the likeness of a human being” part.

On the other hand, my blue translation above lists actual definitions of the Greek words in that passage, and it is not a reach at all to see it says Jesus pre-existed. And compared with the other 15 or so scriptures that support this fact, it is a no-brainer for any intelligent person.

So again, I will ask you and any other non-preexister to show me a scripture that makes it very plain that Jesus ABSOLUTELY did not pre-exist his flesh, or acknowledge that my understanding of Phil 2 is at least “viable”.

mike

Mikeboll64,

You don't get, do you?

It is funny.

you have not figured out, and/or

you do not care to figure out.

you are beating a dead horse.

Why would anyone want to answer such an question?

You have ignored and left out the very answer that you seek.

You have left out nine essential words that answer your own question.

And they are:

“and took upon him the form of a servant”

count them. nine. Why do you ignore these words?

Why do you think they are between, “but made himself of no reputation” and “was made in the likeness of men”?

The reason that they are there is because God wanted them there.

For you to ignore them is foolish. It is unbridled ego.

I wish I could be more loving and gentle and more kind with you, but you would miss it and ignore it. Just like you miss the context and ignore those nine words.

They do not support your preconceived notion, therefore you choose to delete them.

The reason is clear. You ignore these words because you ignore the context of these verses.

Lowliness of mind,

humility,

let nothing be done through strife or vainglory,

he humbled himself and became obedient unto death,

I understand your problem, because I've been there.

See Proverbs 15:33, “The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility.”

Acts 20:19, “Serving the Lord with all humility of mind….”

Colossians 3:12, “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;”

Matthew 23:12, “And whosoever shall exalt himself, shall be abased, and he that humble himself shall be exalted.”

You think you have something on us?

You keep repeating:

Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?

You need to learn to listen, out of humility to God and His words.

Humble yourself and God will exalt you,

Exalt yourself and you shall be humbled.

I Peter 5:6, “Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time”

barley

Mike………Barely is right and so am i, Jesus emptied himself of the (GLORY) that he could have taken to himself as A Son of GOD , he did nit empty himslef of the Spirit of GOD, but the Glory that he could have used to bring (SELF) glory, instead he made (HIMSELF) of NO Reputation and took a position as a servant.

Mike you have completely failed to be able to use Philippians as any kind of proof text for you preexistence dogmas brother. Now it is time to admit it and move one. Going around and chasing your tail only keep this contrived and misapplied teaching alive, it absolutely does (NOT) PROVE an part of your conjectures brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

August 8, 2010 at 10:15 pm#208136

martian

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2010,00:50)

Quote (barley @ Aug. 07 2010,12:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,11:54)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,02:54)

You have lost this one now go on the the next text to support your beliefs in Jesus preexistence brother.

peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………..gene

Here Gene,

Let me make it REALLY clear what I have been asking and what you guys can't answer.

Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?

Do you hear what I'm yelling? He was “begotten” in the form of a human being after he emptied himself. How is that possible if he already WAS a human being at the time?

Now every word I used above is a valid definition of the actual Greek word used. Knowing this, please answer my second question DIRECTLY.

IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON THAT THE GREEK WORDS COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEM TO MEAN? YES OR NO. If the answer is “NO”, please tell me why it is IMPOSSIBLE.

ONE OR THE OTHER PLEASE. IF YOU CANNOT DIRECTLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, DON'T BOTHER POSTING YOUR OPINIONS TO ME. EITHER ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I'VE ASKED, OR DON'T POST TO ME AT ALL.

mike

Mikeboll64,

You don't get, do you?

It is funny.

you have not figured out, and/or

you do not care to figure out.

you are beating a dead horse.

Why would anyone want to answer such an question?

You have ignored and left out the very answer that you seek.

You have left out nine essential words that answer your own question.

And they are:

“and took upon him the form of a servant”

count them. nine. Why do you ignore these words?

Why do you think they are between, “but made himself of no reputation” and “was made in the likeness of men”?

The reason that they are there is because God wanted them there.

For you to ignore them is foolish. It is unbridled ego.

I wish I could be more loving and gentle and more kind with you, but you would miss it and ignore it. Just like you miss the context and ignore those nine words.

They do not support your preconceived notion, therefore you choose to delete them.

The reason is clear. You ignore these words because you ignore the context of these verses.

Lowliness of mind,

humility,

let nothing be done through strife or vainglory,

he humbled himself and became obedient unto death,

I understand your problem, because I've been there.

See Proverbs 15:33, “The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility.”

Acts 20:19, “Serving the Lord with all humility of mind….”

Colossians 3:12, “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;”

Matthew 23:12, “And whosoever shall exalt himself, shall be abased, and he that humble himself shall be exalted.”

You think you have something on us?

You keep repeating:

Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?

You need to learn to listen, out of humility to God and His words.

Humble yourself and God will exalt you,

Exalt yourself and you shall be humbled.

I Peter 5:6, “Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time”

barley

peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

Correct Gene.

August 9, 2010 at 3:20 am#208180

Blocked

Hey guys,

Unfortunately, patting each other on the back doesn't count as scriptural proof.

Neither do your wishes for Jesus to be the same as us.

What do ya say……..is it time for 17:5?

Okay then……..coming right up fellas.

peace and love,
mike

August 9, 2010 at 1:57 pm#208194

Participant

Mike………Patting ourselves on the back has nothing to do with it , but your failure to produce your proof by using that particular text does have everything to do with it brother.

peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………gene

August 10, 2010 at 4:51 am#208256

kerwin

Participant

Marty,

I am not sure if we agree about the relationship of the spirit to the Prophets or not due mostly to the fact that some of the servants of Satan have influenced the teachings about the subject thus throwing the matter into dispute. I do believe the Spirit of God descended on the Prophets but as you say they were not reborn to the same extent as occurs upon entering the New Covenant when this happened. I did word that rebirth by stating those inside the New Covenant had the spirit and those outside do not. Perhaps it would have been wiser for me to actually state “had the spirit to live according to” unlike the Prophets who had it to speak God’s word by. I want to address one related issue which is that in case of at least one Prophet it caused a change for the better in a person, 1 Samuel 10:6.

I prefer the word “voluntarily” to the word “willingly” as I believe it is more accurate in imparting the intent of Scripture.

August 10, 2010 at 11:19 pm#208389

martian

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2010,14:20)

Hey guys,

Unfortunately, patting each other on the back doesn't count as scriptural proof.

Neither do your wishes for Jesus to be the same as us.

What do ya say……..is it time for 17:5?

Okay then……..coming right up fellas.

peace and love,
mike

And yet when Irene was posting you and her broke your arms patting each other on the back. You grow more contradictory by the day.

August 11, 2010 at 12:18 am#208403

Participant

Mike……….So when are you going to use your next scripture to try to support you preexistence doctrine. You have completely failed on Philippians rather you will admit it or not brother. IMO.

peace and love……………………gene

August 11, 2010 at 2:47 am#208425

Blocked

Those are just words Gene. I already posted the new one: John 17:5

mike

August 11, 2010 at 2:48 am#208426

Blocked

Quote (martian @ Aug. 11 2010,10:19)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2010,14:20)

Hey guys,

Unfortunately, patting each other on the back doesn't count as scriptural proof.

Neither do your wishes for Jesus to be the same as us.

What do ya say……..is it time for 17:5?

Okay then……..coming right up fellas.

peace and love,
mike

And yet when Irene was posting you and her broke your arms patting each other on the back. You grow more contradictory by the day.

The difference is we were supporting each other's USE of scripture. You guys are supporting each other's denial of it.

mike

August 11, 2010 at 3:18 am#208431

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2010,15:51)

Marty,

I prefer the word “voluntarily” to the word “willingly” as I believe it is more accurate in imparting the intent of Scripture.

Hi Kerwin:

This is what the scriptures state relative to John the Baptist:

Quote

Luke 1:11And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 11, 2010 at 4:32 am#208440

kerwin

Participant

Marty,

Did you misunderstand me? I agreed that you were correct that the Prophets including John the Baptist had the spirit. I just added that what the Spirit accomplished for them was different than what it accomplishes for those under the new covenant. I believe you can state that is gives the gift of the spirit of righteousness to those in the new covenant and it gave the gift of prophecy to the Prophets of old. It also gives the gift of prophecy to some under the New Covenant but it is clear it does not give that gift to all. It is also clear that gift is in addition to the gift of the spirit of righteousness.

Paul and the other writers of the new covenant teach us many places about the gift of the spirit of righteousness which creates the new man spoken of in Roman 6. This gift of the Spirit of God is taught in Galatians 5 and other places. It is only prophesized to come not taught in the Old Testament.

August 11, 2010 at 11:48 pm#208548

barley

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2010,14:18)

Hi barley,

I don't understand you guys either. What's going on here? When I read the Bible, this passage (along with many others) clearly said to me that Jesus pre-existed.

If you don't agree, that's okay. But, just once more, it actually says:

Who, beginning in the form of God……..emptied himself…….and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.

How do you think everything came to exist through Christ if he wasn't around until Mary birthed him?

And it's weak IMO to play the “name change” game, like saying, “he wasn't actually the Christ then, so how can that apply to him?” Because scripture plainly explains that:

peace and love,
mike

Mikeboll64,

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ.

I find your posts most amusing.

Especially the part where you omit important concepts in the verses you pretend to quote.

You present the idea of,

“I'm not ignoring select words in the verses, but just pointing out the ones that undoubtedly speak of a pre-existence. “

Since you believe you are right to omit them. How about this:

“Mikeboll went to church and met a woman there.

She is pregnant now.

Her husband is angry with his wife and with Mikeboll”

Is there possibly some important details that would exonerate you from the obvious? I guess we will never know because ,hey, they don't matter. Now do they?

You have done the same thing with these verses. You leave out important phrases then say, they don't matter, because they do not fit your personal agenda.

Read Martian's thread on how he works the scriptures, you have a lot to learn.

barley

August 12, 2010 at 12:18 am#208558

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,15:32)

Marty,

Hi Kerwin:

In the OT only the prophets had the Holy Spirit as God's vessel to speak to His people. In the NT, all who are born again, have the Holy Spirit because Jesus has been glorified.

They, those in the OT, as well as we are righteous becasuse we have believed God.

Quote

Romans 4:13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

When Jesus comes for the church, they of the OT who were “in faith” will also be born again, raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.

(But I believe that this may be the wrong thread for this discussion)

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 12, 2010 at 12:45 am#208564

Blocked

Quote (barley @ Aug. 12 2010,10:48)

You have done the same thing with these verses. You leave out important phrases then say, they don't matter, because they do not fit your personal agenda.

Read Martian's thread on how he works the scriptures, you have a lot to learn.

Hi barley,

Why don't you show me how the “servant” part – or anything else I omitted changes the fact that these words actually say,

Who, beginning in the form of God……..emptied himself…….and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.

That's what the words say brother. Deal with it. If you think the parts I omitted have any bearing on or change what these Greek words actually say, then bring it up.

mike

August 12, 2010 at 2:36 pm#208666