Non-trinity believing church?

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May 19, 2013 at 5:04 pm#344781

jb2u

Participant

Quote (carmel @ May 19 2013,08:25)

jb2u,May wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

You really lose me when you start talking about angels being sent to be the apostles. Surely you jest!!!

Jb2u,

Read:

Genesis 28:12 And he saw in his sleep a ladder standing upon the earth, and the top thereof touching heaven:

THE ANGELS ALSO OF GOD ASCENDING AND DESCENDING BY IT;

NOW: Reflect who was SYMBOLICALLY the ladder?

Why the angels were doing so?

JUST FOR FUN?

OR TO TELL US WHAT WAS GOING ON FROM ADAM'S SIN ONWARDS RIGHT FROM ABEL

HOW ON EARTH GOD COULD BE BORN AS MAN IN JESUS AND ESTABLISH HIS CHURCH UNLESS HE SENT HIS OWN SEED FROM HEAVEN THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!

TO CREATE THE GENERATION OF HEAVEN!

THE GENERATION OF EARTH WAS ALL FROM HELL!

John 8:23And he said to them: You are from beneath, (HELL) I am from above. ( HEAVEN)You are of this world, I am not of this world

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

Of course I believe that angels have come to forth and have went back to heaven. That is in scripture!!!

I took issue with you saying that the apostles were angels. Knowing that they denied Christ, ran off and hid, were scared, repeatedly needed clarification of the parables, did not understand that Jesus needed to be sacrificed, one of them betrayed Jesus, and finally…it was only AFTER the resurrection that they stopped being scared and decided to go out and preach the gospel, even to their death (why did they need this final “proof” first that He was who He said that He was before losing their fear). The Apostles were different men in deed AFTER they saw the resurrection of Christ!!

My problem is that you stated the Apostles were angels. That is NOT in scripture!!!

May 19, 2013 at 5:17 pm#344782

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,17:31)

Here is what Strong's says:

Quote

psuchikos: natural, of the soul or mind
Original Word: ψυχικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: psuchikos
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khee-kos')
Short Definition: animal, natural, sensuous
Definition: animal, natural, sensuous.

1 Corinthians 15 NIV
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

So swap out t8's word “physical” for Strong's and NIV's word “natural”, Kerwin. Then how do you understand it?

If you still have questions, keep reading:

48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

So first, Paul distinguished the “natural” from the “spiritual”. Now, he is using the words “earthly” and “heavenly” to distinguish the same two entities. Do those words help you to see it better? If not, keep reading:

49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly.

Do you suppose, by the word “heavenly”, Paul is telling us that we have borne the image of the post-fall Adam, but we will bear the image of the pre-fall Adam? Was the pre-fall Adam “heavenly”? And more to the point, was the pre-fall Adam flesh and blood? If so, then keep reading:

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God……

So unless you can show scripturally that the pre-fall Adam was not flesh and blood, then your theory fails. (Add this to my last post to you, where I've pointed out the other ways your theory fails.)

And if you're still not convinced, listen to your Lord:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit.

Here there is no discrepancy between “flesh and bone” and “flesh and blood”. Jesus only mentions “flesh”, and teaches that flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God.

May 19, 2013 at 5:25 pm#344783

jb2u

Participant

Quote (carmel @ May 19 2013,08:44)

jb2u,May wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

The true believers that are mentioned are NOT just the apostles. Everyone that believes the truth, that Jesus is the SON of God are the true believers. We are all His!!

Jb2u,

What's that got to do WITH WHAT JESUS MEANT

WE ARE DISCUSSING WHAT JESUS MEANT, NOT WHO THE BELIEVERS ARE, AND WHAT THE APPOSTLES ARE!

THE POINT IS THAT:

THE ALMIGHTY GOD WOULD BE KNOWN AS HE NEVER WAS KNOWN BEFORE!
……………

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

It has to do with your misrepresentation of whom the apostles were. You were the one, not me, that brought up the unbiblical concept that the apostles were angels!!!

As far as what the point actually is….is the fact that you misquoted the Bible to say that God was not known as “God in the flesh” until Jesus.

you said…

Quote

Then he continued and said: THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU
So it is clear, IT IS THROUGH THE PROCESS OF THE ETERNAL LIFE THAT ALMIGHTY GOD WOULD BE KNOWN!

BUT HOW? IN WHAT STATE THEY WOULD KNOW ALMIGHTY GOD?

OBVIOUS IN A STATE THAT HE NEVER WAS KNOWN BEFORE:

AS GOD OF ALL FLESH

You said…

Quote

His Father was not known as the only true God

But what the verse actually says is…
John 17: 3
“Now this is eternal life:
That they may know thee, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, whom thou hast sent”

And so…you can keep on misquoting the Bible if you want to. You can heed my advice and write a fiction novel. You can even write your own weird translation of the Bible and deal with God later about it. BUT, what you can't do is add words to the Bible or misquote GOD and expect me to take your word over God's.

May 19, 2013 at 6:10 pm#344786

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2013,23:17)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,17:31)

Here is what Strong's says:

Quote

1 Corinthians 15 NIV
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

So swap out t8's word “physical” for Strong's and NIV's word “natural”, Kerwin. Then how do you understand it?

If you still have questions, keep reading:

48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God……

So unless you can show scriptural that the pre-fall Adam was not flesh and blood, then your theory fails. (Add this to my last post to you, where I've pointed out the other ways your theory fails.)

And if you're still not convinced, listen to your Lord:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit.

Here there is no discrepancy between “flesh and bone” and “flesh and blood”. Jesus only mentions “flesh”, and teaches that flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Mike,

I prefer “soulish” and then leave it up to the reader to interpret according the Spirit. Physical is incorrect. Natural is correct in the worldly natural sense though it breaks the flow of the teaching.

All I have to demonstrate is that the pre-fall Adam was flesh and bone and was in the kingdom of God.

1) Genesis 2:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

2 a) Romans 5:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

b) Romans 8:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

May 19, 2013 at 6:32 pm#344787

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 19 2013,22:44)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,10:40)

Quote (david @ May 18 2013,10:15)

Why do you think he will be flesh when he returns? Do you think he is flesh now, in heaven?

David,

His body is same body Adam and Eve had when they were created, not the body they had after the fall. Scripture states the pre-fall body was flesh and bone. Scripture also attests Jesus gave evidence his resurrected body is flesh and bone.

Kerwin,

I believe Adam's body also consisted of blood – not just flesh and bone. So for you to try and get around the teaching that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, by saying Jesus is only flesh and bone, is odd – to say the least.

Also consider that God created mankind (even before the fall) a little lower than the angels. If Jesus now exists in heaven with a pre-fall body like Adam once had, then Jesus remains “a little lower than the angels”. But that isn't the case, according to scripture.

Also, there is no scriptural evidence that the pre-fall Adam would have lived forever – or that his body was in any way different before he ate of the fruit than it was after he ate of the fruit.

There was the tree of life in the Garden, and perhaps, had things gone differently, God might have eventually allowed humans to eat from that tree and live forever. But God hadn't yet allowed this by the time Satan came and messed it up for us. So the fact God said, “He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever” tells me that, even before the fall, humans hadn't yet achieved the grace of being allowed to live forever.

Mike,

Angels were crested with more authority than human which is why Jesus, a man, was given the authority to elevate him above the angels. It has nothing to do with the body he has.

The tree of life counteracts the death effect of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I Adam had eaten of it he would have become like a fallen angel. Death was not in the world before Adam sinned as he is the one that by who sin entered the world, and death through sin.

Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Scripture does not say if either Adam or Eve had blood before the fall, though I assume they did. Their body was not subject to frustration until they fell.

May 19, 2013 at 6:39 pm#344788

kerwin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,22:29)

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,01:23)

Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,00:53)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,22:23)

Quote (terraricca @ May 18 2013,18:11)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,07:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2013,05:37)

Yes Kerwin. He was seen ascending on the clouds. He will return the same way, ie: being seen coming on the clouds.

Neither of these say anything about Jesus being the only flesh being in a heaven full of spirit beings. In fact, the very idea of that is absurd, if you ask me.

Mike,

He was flesh when he ascended.
He will be flesh when he returns.
He will not come to save souls.
He will come to save certain flesh, less it perish from the earth.

He disappeared in the clouds and he will appear in the clouds.

why do you still believe that Christ will come back in the flesh

is this not put Christ back again into a lower level after he was glorified by his father yes it is,

he ,Christ as been glorified and sit on the right hand of his father so he can no longer be a man ,because the reason for it is now gone and done with ,God as given out his hand to us through him ,it is now for us to grab that outreached hand and change our way of live to God's way,

do not crucify Christ again ,by making him flesh again,

Jesus will come in the same way he left.
He will come as the Son of man.

Kerwin

he left “INVISIBLE “AND WILL COME BACK ” invisible “

READ REVELATION ,CHRIST AS MANY TITTLES AND “SON OF MAN ” IS ONE OF THEM EITHER IN HEAVEN OR PREVIOUSLY ON EARTH,BUT HE HIS NO LONGER A MAN NO PURPOSE FOR IT .

Where is it written he left invisible?
He disappeared in the clouds.
He will reappear in the clouds.

The Son of man is a man or he is not the Son of man.

Kerwin

his Christ the son of God

wen on earth he was the son of man and the son of God ,but which tittle is higher you think

Mk 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

Lk 24:50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them.
Lk 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

Ac 1:3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Ac 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Ac 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Ac 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,

will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

HOW DID THEY SEE HIM GO TO HEAVEN ONLY BY DISAPPEARING BEFORE THEIR OWN EYES ,OR BECOME INVISIBLE ? RIGHT

Acts 1:9 declares a cloud hid Jesus from the sight of the Eleven. Being hidden by a cloud is not disappearing. At some point after that he transitioned to heaven.

Son of God has precedence over Son of man just as spiritual side of man has precedence over the physical side.

May 19, 2013 at 6:52 pm#344789

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,12:10)

All I have to demonstrate is that the pre-fall Adam was flesh and bone and was in the kingdom of God.

No, actually you need to show that the pre-fall Adam:

1. Had a change of body after the fall.

2. Did NOT consist of blood.

Can you show these things from the scriptures?

May 19, 2013 at 6:55 pm#344790

mikeboll64

Blocked

Oh, and you must also explain how your theory works in light of the fact that, in John 3, Jesus mentioned only “flesh” – not “flesh and blood”, or “flesh and bone”.

May 19, 2013 at 6:58 pm#344791

kerwin

Participant

Carmel,

Quote

You are confused I'm afraid for the simple reason that JESUS WAS FULLY MAN and FULLY GOD

I have heard the spin but it is an irrational tenet. You can either be fully a cat or fully an ant but not both fully an ant and fully a dog.

Jesus is fully man and Yawheh is fully God but dwells in Jesus by the Spirit, which is Yawheh's Spirit as a man's spirit is his. Notice that I have three that are one but one is man, one is God, and one is spirit. This trinity is part of the unity.

May 19, 2013 at 7:29 pm#344794

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ May 19 2013,22:05)

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,14:23)

ED J

Like YHVH he lives in those that believe by the Spirit.

Hi Kerwin,

Then Christ can live in more than one place at a time or no?
…your answers aren't very clear at best, and appear wishy-washy at worst

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J.

I was going by Paul's words to the Athens when claim Yawheh is for all practical purposes our existence. I doubt my words are any more difficult to understand than his are.

There is a certain Scripture that stated God dwell in believers by his Spirit. I applied it to Jesus as both live in believers.

Jesus is no more personally located in believers than Mosses was in the 70 judges. Jesus is in a believer as a writer is in their letters.

May 19, 2013 at 8:08 pm#344796

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2013,00:52)

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,12:10)

All I have to demonstrate is that the pre-fall Adam was flesh and bone and was in the kingdom of God.

No, actually you need to show that the pre-fall Adam:

1. Had a change of body after the fall.

2. Did NOT consist of blood.

Can you show these things from the scriptures?

Mike,

I have already established that flesh and bone exist in the kingdom of heaven. The fact creation was subjected to frustration reveals the creation underwent a change with Adam's fall.

Scripture remains quiet about the existence of blood until Abel's murder. At that time blood is associated with death. flesh and bone is associated with the immortal human body. There is no evidence blood either existed or did not exist before the fall.

May 19, 2013 at 8:12 pm#344797

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2013,00:55)

Oh, and you must also explain how your theory works in light of the fact that, in John 3, Jesus mentioned only “flesh” – not “flesh and blood”, or “flesh and bone”.

Mike,

Offhand I venture that Jesus is speaking in a spiritual sense as he is teaching about the rebirth of the spirit and not the resurrection. I am considering looking into it some more.

May 19, 2013 at 11:37 pm#344806

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,14:08)

Mike,

I have already established that flesh and bone exist in the kingdom of heaven.

What? If you did, I must have missed it. Show me the scripture again.

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,14:08)

There is no evidence blood either existed or did not exist before the fall.

Kerwin, are you claiming that Adam and Eve consisted only of flesh and bone, but all of their subsequent offspring have consisted of flesh, bone, AND blood?

Leviticus 17 NRSV ©
10 For the life of the flesh is in the blood…………….

14 ……the life of every creature is its blood….

Didn't Adam's flesh have life in it?

Kerwin, are you aware that the “flesh” of human beings is made up partly OF blood?

Are you aware that God created the living beings on earth with the ability to reproduce each after its own kind? How did the non-blood beings Adam and Eve produce blood-filled offspring?

Or are you saying that Adam began his existence as a non-blood being, but then was transformed into a blood-filled being after he ate of the fruit?

Kerwin, you just said this to Ed J:

Quote

I was going by Paul's words to the Athens……….. I doubt my words are any more difficult to understand than his are.

I wouldn't bet on it.

May 19, 2013 at 11:37 pm#344807

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,14:12)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2013,00:55)

Oh, and you must also explain how your theory works in light of the fact that, in John 3, Jesus mentioned only “flesh” – not “flesh and blood”, or “flesh and bone”.

Mike,

Offhand I venture that Jesus is speaking in a spiritual sense as he is teaching about the rebirth of the spirit and not the resurrection. I am considering looking into it some more.

In what scriptural instance does a “spirit” need to be “reborn”?

May 20, 2013 at 2:12 am#344819

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 20 2013,00:39)