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jb2u,
Jesus does EVERYTHING that He sees the Father doing. The fact that He CAN do EVERYTHING that He sees the Father doing is quite a resume! So, if you are weak and heavy laden and need to know that Jesus is here for you, watch this:(Thanks for sending me the video—you know who you are
)Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2013,16:31) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,13:10) Gosh, t8, all of those “theos/gods”!! Yes, I was an Arian myself, once (not too long ago).
He is teaching the Greek usage of theos. It can be applied to the Most High, Angels, Men, Satan, idols, etc.You can't change Greek, you can only accept it and learn it.
Rejecting Greek is not the answer.
RIGHT. So “John” went completely against his Jewish beliefs and decided that, although God is one, and although God ALONE created the world and the universe and all that is in them… There was ANOTHER GOD there with Him?? A smaller God, but still another god nonetheless.
How then do you explain these verses if you put aside Origen? (who also believed in reincarnation or the pre-existance of all)
Deuteronony 4
[35] To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
[39] Know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.Deuteronomy 32
[39] “`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me.2 Samuel 7
[22] Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, and there is no God besides thee.2 Samuel 22
[32] “For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?1 Kings 8
[60] That all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.2 Kings 19
[15]”O LORD the God of Israel, who art enthroned above the cherubim, thou art the God, thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.Nehemiah 9
[6] And Ezra said: “Thou art the LORD, thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and thou preservest all of them; and the host of heaven worships thee.Psalm 18
[31] For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?Isaiah 37
[20] So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou alone art the LORD.”Isaiah 43
[10] “You are my witnesses,” says the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am He.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
[11] I, I am the LORD,
and besides me there is no savior.Isaiah 44
[6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
[7] Who is like me? Let him proclaim it,
let him declare and set it forth before me.
Who has announced from of old the things to come?
Let them tell us what is yet to be.
[8] Fear not, nor be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
And you are my witnesses!
Is there a God besides me?
There is no Rock; I know not any.”Isaiah 45
[5] I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
[6] that men may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.[11] Thus says the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Will you question me about my children,
or command me concerning the work of my hands?
[12] I made the earth,
and created man upon it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.[14]`God is with you only, and there is no other,
no god besides him.'”[18] For thus says the LORD,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.[21] Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.
[22] “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.Genesis 1
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
[2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.[1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
Nobody knows the Father except the Son.
(and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him).Nobody knows the mind of God except the Spirit of God.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,09:50) [ It all makes perfect sense to me.
I can feel the spirit more so than I have in a long time.Something for you to think about.
2besee……..This is what is meant by perhaps that you may “FEEL” after him.There is most deffenitely a “SENSE” of the Sprit of Truth Presence brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 15 2013,11:18) jb2u,
Jesus does EVERYTHING that He sees the Father doing. The fact that He CAN do EVERYTHING that He sees the Father doing is quite a resume! So, if you are weak and heavy laden and need to know that Jesus is here for you, watch this:
LU,Why not just have faith in Yawheh.
When you have faith in Jesus, you do have faith in YHVH. He gives gifts to men, some are pastors. The guy in the video is a pastor, gifted by YHVH. People, as gifted pastors can at times be used of God to encourage our faith. Do you believe that is possible, Kerwin? Watch the video and you will be encouraged by the God given gift of a pastor.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 16 2013,02:03) When you have faith in Jesus, you do have faith in YHVH. He gives gifts to men, some are pastors. The guy in the video is a pastor, gifted by YHVH. People, as gifted pastors can at times be used of God to encourage our faith. Do you believe that is possible, Kerwin? Watch the video and you will be encouraged by the God given gift of a pastor.
LU,A shepherds job is to teach one to have faith in God, and so to teach his students to seek his righteousness and his kingdom.
Kerwin…………..well put brother. Indeed that is the shepherds job, to teach us to worship the one and “ONLY” true God. That is exactly what Jesus taught us to do, just as he did also.
Peace and love to you and yours ………………………………..gene
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,04:20) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2013,16:31) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,13:10) Gosh, t8, all of those “theos/gods”!! Yes, I was an Arian myself, once (not too long ago).
He is teaching the Greek usage of theos. It can be applied to the Most High, Angels, Men, Satan, idols, etc.You can't change Greek, you can only accept it and learn it.
Rejecting Greek is not the answer.
RIGHT. So “John” went completely against his Jewish beliefs and decided that, although God is one, and although God ALONE created the world and the universe and all that is in them… There was ANOTHER GOD there with Him?? A smaller God, but still another god nonetheless.
2B,WHY do you keep bringing this up over and over? t8 didn't say that more than one “god” created anything, did he? And you've already agreed more than once that there are indeed many who are called “god” in the scriptures.
So I don't understand what is so hard about this. NO, Jesus didn't create anything at all. But YES, Jesus, along with many others in scripture, has been called by the title “god”. You have already acknowledged this to me in the other thread………… TWICE.
So tell me how John “went completely against his Jewish beliefs” by telling us that Jesus (the Word/Spokesman of God) was with God in the beginning, and that he himself also has the title “god”?
Look how your own mind is convincing you that what IS written can't really be what is written. You have gone as far as to insinuate that John is going against Jewish beliefs – when it is really just a case of you REFUSING to understand the words John wrote.
t8 is right, 2B. Rejecting the Greek is not the answer. You must instead EMBRACE the Greek, and try to understand how THEY used the word “god” in THEIR culture.
Lightenup…I watched the video and I have to say that I disagree.
Jesus made it clear that he was not equal with the father!!
First, in the verses that this preacher cited, he is wrong by saying in John 5:19 that Jesus did not refute their suggestion that he was saying that he was equal with the father.
John 5:19 clearly shows an unequal attribute as Jesus states “…The Son can do NOTHING of Himself..” This is the first thing Jesus says when the Jews thought he was
saying that he was equal to God. Jesus was quickly denying equality to God.Furthermore, in John 6:38 Jesus states “For I came down from heaven, not to do MINE OWN will, but the will of HIM that sent ME.”
So we see that He can do nothing of himself and He is here to do God's will and not his own. Yet, we are to believe that He is equal with the Father?If this preacher would have went a little farther in scripture he would have found John 10:30-38. When Jesus is threatened to be stoned for blasphemy because he said “I and my Father are one”, He
then clarifies and states that the scripture says men are gods and asks why do they say that he “blasphemest because “I said, I am the SON of God?”
So from these verses we can see two things. 1) He was not saying that he was God when he said “I and my Father are one.” And 2) He “is the Son of God.”But, back to the equality issue John 12:49 shows that God gave Jesus a commandment of what to say!! Not many that are equal can command someone to say something!!
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”Maybe Matthew 26:53 makes it more clear…Jesus says “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”
Why would one being equal to God need to pray to God to ask for twelve legions of angels?There are many other verses that would prove this point.
Jesus is to be honoured, as God commands us, since He sent Jesus here to die for OUR sins, but that does not make him equal to God as, I believe, Jesus made that clear.
You can believe what you want. Like I said, I really am not looking for an argument, just a place to go worship and fellowship. I do not claim to be a great mind or a Bible scholar, but
I know God is; and, He is to whom I pray to for guidance when studying the Bible. I am sure you mean well, but I am going to have to disagree. I appreciate it though.Jb2u………….. Well put , Jesus is not equal to God never was and never will be either. We have only one true God , And it is the same God Jesus has , He is his God and our God his Father and our Father.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2013,17:28) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,04:20) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2013,16:31) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 15 2013,13:10) Gosh, t8, all of those “theos/gods”!! Yes, I was an Arian myself, once (not too long ago).
He is teaching the Greek usage of theos. It can be applied to the Most High, Angels, Men, Satan, idols, etc.You can't change Greek, you can only accept it and learn it.
Rejecting Greek is not the answer.
RIGHT. So “John” went completely against his Jewish beliefs and decided that, although God is one, and although God ALONE created the world and the universe and all that is in them… There was ANOTHER GOD there with Him?? A smaller God, but still another god nonetheless.
2B,WHY do you keep bringing this up over and over? t8 didn't say that more than one “god” created anything, did he? And you've already agreed more than once that there are indeed many who are called “god” in the scriptures.
So I don't understand what is so hard about this. NO, Jesus didn't create anything at all. But YES, Jesus, along with many others in scripture, has been called by the title “god”. You have already acknowledged this to me in the other thread………… TWICE.
So tell me how John “went completely against his Jewish beliefs” by telling us that Jesus (the Word/Spokesman of God) was with God in the beginning, and that he himself also has the title “god”?
Look how your own mind is convincing you that what IS written can't really be what is written. You have gone as far as to insinuate that John is going against Jewish beliefs – when it is really just a case of you REFUSING to understand the words John wrote.
t8 is right, 2B. Rejecting the Greek is not the answer. You must instead EMBRACE the Greek, and try to understand how THEY used the word “god” in THEIR culture.
Mike,
I do not want to get into a back and forth argument over this.When you or anyone else says that John 1:1 is not about the “One God” but is rather about “Two Gods”, then I correspond what you are saying with Genesis 1:1 which is also “In the Beginning” – and I see it as fickle.
So, even if I seem to misunderstand what you claim about creation — I am not misunderstanding you, as I HEAR YOU, but am, rather, seeing the 'bigger picture' of what you are saying.
John 1:1 is about the one God and His word.
God is love.
God is light.
So what is so hard to understand about God's word also being God if God is also 'light and love'?One God!
I have nothing further to say about this Mike!! Peace to you
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 17 2013,03:40) Lightenup…I watched the video and I have to say that I disagree. Jesus made it clear that he was not equal with the father!!
First, in the verses that this preacher cited, he is wrong by saying in John 5:19 that Jesus did not refute their suggestion that he was saying that he was equal with the father.
John 5:19 clearly shows an unequal attribute as Jesus states “…The Son can do NOTHING of Himself..” This is the first thing Jesus says when the Jews thought he was
saying that he was equal to God. Jesus was quickly denying equality to God.Furthermore, in John 6:38 Jesus states “For I came down from heaven, not to do MINE OWN will, but the will of HIM that sent ME.”
So we see that He can do nothing of himself and He is here to do God's will and not his own. Yet, we are to believe that He is equal with the Father?If this preacher would have went a little farther in scripture he would have found John 10:30-38. When Jesus is threatened to be stoned for blasphemy because he said “I and my Father are one”, He
then clarifies and states that the scripture says men are gods and asks why do they say that he “blasphemest because “I said, I am the SON of God?”
So from these verses we can see two things. 1) He was not saying that he was God when he said “I and my Father are one.” And 2) He “is the Son of God.”But, back to the equality issue John 12:49 shows that God gave Jesus a commandment of what to say!! Not many that are equal can command someone to say something!!
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”Maybe Matthew 26:53 makes it more clear…Jesus says “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”
Why would one being equal to God need to pray to God to ask for twelve legions of angels?There are many other verses that would prove this point.
Jesus is to be honoured, as God commands us, since He sent Jesus here to die for OUR sins, but that does not make him equal to God as, I believe, Jesus made that clear.
You can believe what you want. Like I said, I really am not looking for an argument, just a place to go worship and fellowship. I do not claim to be a great mind or a Bible scholar, but
I know God is; and, He is to whom I pray to for guidance when studying the Bible. I am sure you mean well, but I am going to have to disagree. I appreciate it though.Good post JB.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 12 2013,11:13) I was raised Baptist. However, I never really got where they were seeing the trinity in scripture. It always seemed clear to me that God literally sent His Son. Never did I see it that God exists in three separate “beings.” This is not a debate about if the trinity is true or not!!! My point is….I love the church environment. I love hearing, as well as reading the word of God. I love the fellowship. I love the singing of hymns. As I search and search for a church, I can not find one that does not believe in the trinity. I look at those religions that do not believe in the trinity; yet they have their own problems (JW, Mormons, Dawn bible students, Christian Scientist, etc).
Is there a church for me? Is there a church that does not believe in the trinity, believes that Jesus rose in the flesh, that you must repent and ask for salvation through Christ? I know that I do not need a “building”. If such a church does not exist, I will continue to do a home bible study. However, I do not want to go and sit in a church in which I disagree with their doctrine. As it has been said 90% true of anything is 100% false!!
I thank everyone here that takes the time to read and/or comment on my post. God is Great!!!
Hi JB:If you have not done so, my first bit of advice is for you to go to God in prayer asking Him for wisdom regarding this situation, and expect Him to answer your prayer.
He has said if you ask anything in according to His will, you will receive what you have asked.
I will relate to you that I am currently worshipping with a congregation where the trinity doctrine is taught, but I have been able to give my understanding of the scriptures in Sunday school, and they cannot argue with the scriptures such as 1 Timothy 2:5 which states:
Quote 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; And God has shown me in a vision that the Pastor would come to a realization that He was trying to reach her through me. Of course, sheep do not correct pastors, but:
Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: So, it is not I that can correct anyone, but the Word of God which they cannot deny will do the convicting and correcting.
Ultimately, God has shown me that He will exalt me to the position of Bishop or overseer over this congregation of believers, and that He will correct the “so called church through me”. They will not listen unless God confirms what I teach with the same type of miracles that He did in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles. Then some my listen, but probably not all.
Prior to coming back to this congregation, because I left it for a time because the pastor promised to discuss these differences with me and then back on her word, I was with another non-denominational church. I went to the Pastors and discussed with them that I did not believe the “trinity doctrine” and shared the scriptures with them, and although they admitted that the “Trinity doctrine” was not in the bible, they stated that it was there as a concept, and that it was “orthodox doctrine” in the church for almost 2000 years, and tried to convince me to just accept this, and stated that they were not going to change. Of course, I was branded as a heretic.
God has shown me that the “spirit of Saul” would try to prevent Him from exalting me to the position of “Bishop” in the church, but if God said that He would do this, and He did, He is fully capable of doing what He has stated.
Hopefully, I have shared something with you in this response to your post that be helpful to you.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (jb2u @ Mar. 16 2013,08:40) I do not claim to be a great mind or a Bible scholar……….
Seems to me that you've got a good handle on what the scriptures actually teach. Good post, and good use of scriptures to support your understanding.Quote (2besee @ Mar. 16 2013,17:56) When you or anyone else says that John 1:1 is not about the “One God” but is rather about “Two Gods”, then I correspond what you are saying with Genesis 1:1 which is also “In the Beginning” – and I see it as fickle.
There is more than one “beginning” in scriptures, 2B. Also, God said, “Let US create man in OUR image”, right? So there was OBVIOUSLY someone there with God at that time too. Or do you suppose God was talking to His literal words that were “with Him”?Quote (2besee @ Mar. 16 2013,17:56) I have nothing further to say about this Mike!
Fair enough 2B. But I will probably continue to point out your inconsistency every time you try to claim a “There is LITERALLY only ONE god in existence” defense – because you've already acknowledged the truth that the scriptures speak of MANY, and Jesus is one of them.Hi JB. Have you ever thought about visiting a Seventh Day Adventist Church? They are pretty good and are right into prophecy.
Have you ever been there before?
They do believe in a trinity… But they pray to the Father etc much more I have noticed than other Churches. They Do seem to know the difference, I think.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 17 2013,17:40) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 16 2013,17:56) When you or anyone else says that John 1:1 is not about the “One God” but is rather about “Two Gods”, then I correspond what you are saying with Genesis 1:1 which is also “In the Beginning” – and I see it as fickle.
There is more than one “beginning” in scriptures, 2B. Also, God said, “Let US create man in OUR image”, right? So there was OBVIOUSLY someone there with God at that time too. Or do you suppose God was talking to His literal words that were “with Him”?Quote (2besee @ Mar. 16 2013,17:56) I have nothing further to say about this Mike!
Fair enough 2B. But I will probably continue to point out your inconsistency every time you try to claim a “There is LITERALLY only ONE god in existence” defense – because you've already acknowledged the truth that the scriptures speak of MANY, and Jesus is one of them.Hi Mike,
The owner of this thread would like to stick to the topic I think, and there is plenty of other threads speaking about John 1:1!Quote (2besee @ Mar. 19 2013,13:43) Hi JB. Have you ever thought about visiting a Seventh Day Adventist Church? They are pretty good and are right into prophecy. Have you ever been there before?
They do believe in a trinity… But they pray to the Father etc much more I have noticed than other Churches. They Do seem to know the difference, I think.
2beesee,They are the church of my mother's family. They are big on end times prophecy they do not understand and on ceremonial, dietary, and Sabbath law. They immerse believers but then so do the Baptists. Being immersed without hearing and believing the true teachings is a way to get wet.
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