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And also, Charles, although God is invisible, the proof of His existence for me is not merely faith, I know that He exists because “He dwells within me by His Spirit”, and I have a personal relationship with him and the risen Christ. I communicate with Him every .day And so, I don't only believe that He exists. I know without a shadow of a doubt that He exists.
Love in Christ,
Martyjb2u,
I believe that you asked for verses to support Jesus as Jehovah. Here you go:942767,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote And so, he himself has told us that he is not God in that he stated that he was going to ascend to his God and our God and to his Father and our Father. Marty,
Before I explain and define the above,WHICH YOU ARE INTERPRITING IT WRONGLY I asked you to define the word mediator
So FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST OUR ONLY KIND OF FATHER AND GOD, please in the most clear ,literral and possible way, and in order to really uderstand each other,
what is a Mediator's job, in details in human terms THE ONLY WAY IN THE TRUTH!
FOR US HUMANS!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (Lightenup @ April 24 2013,14:58) jb2u,
I believe that you asked for verses to support Jesus as Jehovah. Here you go:
Oh, Lightenup. No. I did not ask for verses to support Jesus as Jehovah. Please read my posts. I have many valid questions for you. Let's say, you have the truth, and I am lost. Please, answer the valid questions that must be answered. I have answered all of your questions AND backed it with scripture. I want you to do the same. If I am wrong, then I truly want to be corrected. Showing me a website with MANY misleading verses is not what I am asking for. The owner of that website shows his lack of scriptural knowledge.I can't go into all of his misassumptions, but I will list a few as example.
He says “elohim” is plural. God calls Moses “elohim.” Is GOD calling Moses a plural god?? No. So, the use of “elohim” is NOT proof that GOD is three in one. It does not mean that He is not, it just means that you can not use “elohim” being plural to “prove” your plural in unity argument. Understand?
He speaks of “more than one Jehovah” appearing to Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed. First, they are sent to represent GOD. They are NOT God Himself. One, no doubt, is the angel of the Lord, but even He is not God Himself. Does the owner of that site NOT know that although 3 “men” appeared to Abraham, Scripture clearly states that the men turned to go to Sodom and then Abraham stood before GOD. We then see, IN SCRIPTURE, that only 2 of the 3 went to Sodom. While there, they never claimed to be GOD. They went to get Lot and told him “the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.” WOW, so the 3 that appeared to Abraham were not 3 Jehovahs or 3 in 1. That is interesting, NO? Now, the other is no doubt the angel of the LORD and not God himself, for it is written that no man has seen GOD.
The owner further shows his lack of knowledge by stating “and later Jehovah on earth made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah in heaven.” Is this correct? No. In Hebrew, it actually says, “Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire Jehovah out of heaven.” There is not a “from” in this verse in Hebrew. Hebrew does have a word for “from”, it is “ben” and it is not used in this verse. Now, I am by no means an expert in Hebrew. So, let's say that it does say “from.” Does this mean that there are two Jehovahs? No. The angel of the LORD, being his agent would be called LORD; and so, we can accurately say, “The LORD (as in his agent) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from The LORD in heaven.” This would be a true statement, but not “proof” of a plural in unity God.
He uses the “I am” statements of Jesus. Does he not realize that many times people use “I am” in the Bible, and they are not claiming to be God? Do you? The point is we are looking for proof that Jesus is God. So far we have not found it. He also makes the obvious mistake that many of the Jews in the Bible make, Jesus over and over says that He is speaking the words of HIS FATHER!! The Bible says that the Pharisees could NOT get this and, well obviously, this applies to many of the people today.
Again, I could go on, but I really want YOU to answer my questions, not give me a website.
I will list some of the questions, but please go back and see my original posts, as I have comments that I need for you to see and understand. Please.
I know this is a lot, but so is the importance of sound doctrine!!
If this is too much, then please answer,1) Where is God the Son in the Bible? (I am talking about the wording, God the Son instead of the Biblical, Son of God)
2) How can Jesus stand before God and yet be God at the same time?
3) Why wouldn't Jesus say that He is Yahweh? (and no, he never says that. NEVER is Yahweh used for Jesus.)
4) Why would Jesus turn everything over to GOD, so that GOD can be all and all, if He is or is a part of GOD?
5) How do you explain the trinitarians killing those that did not believe in a triune God? Should they have not loved their brethern and tried to help them?
6) Why do YOU think that the trinitarians did not want the Bible translated into other languages? Why are some of the verses changed to fit the trinity concept?
7) Why was there no mention in the Bible about this NEW concept of a triune God? They argued about the law, saved by faith, eating meat, salvation for the gentiles, and yet no controversy about this new concept of a trinity? Really? (and NO, the idea even to this day of a triune God is rejected by the Jews; so, it would have been a controversy back then as well.)
8) Where is the Holy Spirits throne or reign of authority in eternity?
9) Does it not give you pause that Jesus called His Father the ONE ONLY TRUE GOD? My question is…does it even give you pause? I honestly want to know. I am not asking if you believe it. I want to know that it at least makes you stop and think just for a minute, at least!!
I know some of these questions are just asking for an opinion, but it is important to understand the people in which you follow. If it is bad fruit then it is a bad tree….so says GOD. I am not saying that everyone is bad, but the founders of the trinity, according to historical evidence which they do not even deny, killed those that did not believe in their doctrine, burned the materials of those that did not believe in the trinity, and killed those that wanted to translate the Bible into different languages so that all could receive the word. Furthermore, they changed verses to give the appearance that the trinity concept is in the Bible. Additionally, it took them many councils to come up with what this doctrine of the trinity would even be. It was not just one council, Nicene, and everyone said, “OK, that is Biblical truth.” NO, they went back an forth council after council about the particulars of this NEW doctrine. I would have to think this gives you pause.
Again, I am not looking for ambiguous verses that would give the appearance that there MIGHT be a plural in unity GOD. I want to know these answers so that I might be convinced, as you are, that Jesus did not really mean that His Father was the one and only true GOD.
Quote (david @ April 23 2013,07:37) Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,17:23) Quote (david @ April 15 2013,07:23) Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
David,That means t8 is being influenced by the evil one just as Peter was when he rebuked Jesus for teachings he found repugnant. If that made Peter a false teacher then anyone that does likewise is also a false teacher.
I will say this, if t8 claims to be a teacher and his teaching are false then he is a false teacher. I hope that he is instead striving to learn and has stumbled like Peter.
Note: miss-addressed this. Now correct.
T8, according to kerwin, if you claim to be a teacher and teach false doctrine, then you are a false teacher.(I'm not sure what claiming to be a teacher has to do with anything. One who teaches others is a teacher regardless of what someone claims or doesn't claim.)
But anyway, either you or kerwin would seem to be false teachers right? I mean, you and kerwin don't agree on everything do you? I haven't checked, but I doubt you believe (and argue, and teach) the same things.
How does one know who are the true teachers? By their fruits you will recognize them. But also by what they believe and teach.
David,A teacher has more knowledge than a students. An advanced student strives to aid his fellow student while acknowledging that the teacher knows more and has more accurate information. A student is misguided if he has obtained bad information. A student is presumptuous if trying to help in an area he, himself does not understand.
There is also the case when students study together and examine information both good and bad.
jb2u,
Would you like a one on one discussion of this? It gets hard to find past discussions when many people are posting in the same thread. I have been real busy lately and now I have a head cold, in a few days I leave for San Diego for about a week. After that I will probably be more consistent on here. So, what do you say to a one on one discussion? We can tackle one question at a time…one from you and then one from me.jb2u,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Jesus' power and authority is GREAT, but it is ALL given Him by..GOD, Jb2u,
EXPLAIN THIS:
John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.
It is as clear as crystal:
WHATEVER THE FATHER HAS BELONG TO JESUS!
WHATEVER THE FATHER HAS IS ETERNAL!
SO WHATEVER JESUS HAS IS ALSO ETERNAL BOTH IN HIMSELF AND IN THE FATHER!
SO THE FATHER IN A VISIBLE SUBSTANCE IS CALLED JESUS!
AND SINCE WHATEVER THE FATHER HAS BELONG TO JESUS,
JESUS' VISIBLE SUBSTANCE IS ALSO ETERNAL NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT IT WAS FLESH!
SIMPLY A SPIRIT FROM GOD, EQUAL WITH GOD, LEFT GOD, AND WAS TRANSFORMED INTO FLESH AND IS CALLED JESUS.
LIKE FOR INSTANCE A TUMBLER OF WATER TRAMSFORMED INTO ICE IT WOULD BE THE SAME WATER BUT SINCE IT IS TRANSFORMED IT IS CALLED ICE
IT'S ALL EXPLAINED IN HERE
HEBREWS1:3Who(JESUS) being the brightness of his (GOD'S)glory, and the figure of his(GOD'S) substance, and upholding all things by the word of his(GOD'S) power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high GOD
JESUS IS
GOD'S BRIGHTNESS THE FATHER!
GOD'S SUBSTANCE THE SON!
GOD'S POWER THE HOLY SPIRIT!
THEREFORE THE WORD IN FLESH!
THEREFORE THE GODHEAD IN FLESH!
THEREFORE THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN FLESH!
THEREFORE THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (Lightenup @ April 25 2013,06:29) jb2u,
Would you like a one on one discussion of this? It gets hard to find past discussions when many people are posting in the same thread. I have been real busy lately and now I have a head cold, in a few days I leave for San Diego for about a week. After that I will probably be more consistent on here. So, what do you say to a one on one discussion? We can tackle one question at a time…one from you and then one from me.
That is fine with me. I hope you feel better!! Have a safe trip.Quote (carmel @ April 25 2013,07:26) jb2u,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Jesus' power and authority is GREAT, but it is ALL given Him by..GOD, Jb2u,
EXPLAIN THIS:
John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.
It is as clear as crystal:
WHATEVER THE FATHER HAS BELONG TO JESUS!
WHATEVER THE FATHER HAS IS ETERNAL!
SO WHATEVER JESUS HAS IS ALSO ETERNAL BOTH IN HIMSELF AND IN THE FATHER!
SO THE FATHER IN A VISIBLE SUBSTANCE IS CALLED JESUS!
AND SINCE WHATEVER THE FATHER HAS BELONG TO JESUS,
JESUS' VISIBLE SUBSTANCE IS ALSO ETERNAL NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT IT WAS FLESH!
SIMPLY A SPIRIT FROM GOD, EQUAL WITH GOD, LEFT GOD, AND WAS TRANSFORMED INTO FLESH AND IS CALLED JESUS.
LIKE FOR INSTANCE A TUMBLER OF WATER TRAMSFORMED INTO ICE IT WOULD BE THE SAME WATER BUT SINCE IT IS TRANSFORMED IT IS CALLED ICE
IT'S ALL EXPLAINED IN HERE
HEBREWS1:3Who(JESUS) being the brightness of his (GOD'S)glory, and the figure of his(GOD'S) substance, and upholding all things by the word of his(GOD'S) power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high GOD
JESUS IS
GOD'S BRIGHTNESS THE FATHER!
GOD'S SUBSTANCE THE SON!
GOD'S POWER THE HOLY SPIRIT!
THEREFORE THE WORD IN FLESH!
THEREFORE THE GODHEAD IN FLESH!
THEREFORE THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN FLESH!
THEREFORE THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Really? John 16 is about the coming Holy Spirit. And yes, everything that is the Father's is Jesus, but only because GOD gave it to Jesus, not because Jesus is God. I am pretty sure that is NOT what John 16 is about. Why would His Father, GOD, need to give Jesus anything if in fact Jesus is GOD???From there you went on to a LOT of assumptions about eternal and visible substance, etc. You will never get me to believe in the man made doctrine of the trinity by using assumptions that are not even worded in the Bible!!! I want to see scripture where it says…Jesus is Yahweh or Yahweh is three in one. Something!! God did not Hide who He is. Jesus did not hide who He is. God did not Hide who satan is. Why would He hide something as important as the trinity with ambiguous verses that can be read either way?? Why would He have Jesus say that His Father is the one only true GOD, if that were not true?? By your definition, Jesus is God. So, Jesus saying His Father is the one only true GOD would be false, if Jesus is God, too. Let's say Steve and John sell cars. If Steve says John is the one and only car salesman, is that not a lie? Please answer this basic question.
The whole water/ice analogy does not work. Ice can be ice and water can be water, but it can not be ice and liquid at the same time!!! Your claim is that Jesus is God and the Father is God. So can we say Jesus is Ice and the Father is Liquid, and the Holy Spirit is the steam? No, because each can only be in that state one at a time. That same cup of water (Yahweh) can not be solid, liquid, gas at the same time. You can have SEPARATE cups of water, one as ice, one as liquid, and one as steam, but then you would have three Yahwehs. I do not think you want to admit that.
Hebrews 1:3?? Again, you are making the same mistake as many!! Do not look at the verse, look at scripture. Hebrews will tell you WHY Christ is superior to us and the angels. It will tell you HOW GOD put Him in that position. Now, if GOD put Jesus in that position, then Jesus is not GOD!!! If GOD gives Jesus anything then that would mean Jesus is not GOD Himself. You are saying GOD gave GOD authority. That makes no sense. You are saying GOD told GOD sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. You are saying GOD said GOD is greater than GOD. Again, this does not make sense. And, if it does not make sense, then it is nonsense!!
Over and over, we see in scripture that GOD is one and that Jesus is shown as separate from GOD in person. How many times do we see “GOD and Jesus Christ” in the Bible. If Jesus is God or part of the triune God, then there is no need to say “God and Jesus Christ.” One could just say, “GOD.” If I say, “John and Mary say, Hi.” You know that Mary is NOT John because it clearly says John AND Mary. If I said the Smith's and Mike went to the beach. You know without me telling you that Mike is not one of the Smith's. Why? Because I clearly said the Smith's and Mike. BUT, for some reason, when scripture says “GOD and Jesus Christ” people want to say…”well Jesus is God.” Again, that does not make sense.
I will ask you to please answer the same questions that I asked Lightenup in my last post. PLEASE!! I want to know the truth. If I am wrong then show me the error of my ways. I really want to know. Do not show me vague verses that can have more than one meaning. I want to see where in the Bible that it clearly says Jesus is Yahweh, not a god, but THE GOD!! The only true God. Show me proof of a triune GOD. Surely it is there, right? GOD wants us to know HIM, so it should be there in clear words since He wants anyone, no matter what education level to be able to find Him, right? HE is not trying to trick us. He wants us to know the truth. So, please, answer my questions to Lightenup and then show me the scripture that prove that Jesus did not mean that His Father is the ONE and ONLY true GOD. Just so you know, I will listen with an open mind, but I want PROOF that Jesus did not mean what HE said!! Otherwise, I am just going to have to believe Jesus!!
Quote (jb2u @ April 22 2013,12:11) This is true. What you say does not contradict that which I have said. However, it does contradict the idea that Jesus is YHWH God!! That seems to be Kathy's idea. Again, I believe every word of the Bible. I also know that there are verses that are ambiguous. And so, they must be interpreted not by the verse itself, but by the scripture as a whole.
Trinitarians take the ambiguous verse to “prove” that Jesus is God and then ignore the rest of scripture where it is clear that only the Father is the one true GOD.
For instance, Kathy's idea is elohim is “plural” so that means GOD must be plural in unity. BUT, how does she or other Trinitarians explain why Moses is called elohim by GOD. Is moses a “plural in unity” god too?? Of course not!! And yet, we debate over and over about elohim. When clearly it is just a word to explain the greatness of GOD. GOD assures Israel that GOD is only one. He further clarifies one ALONE!! He knew people would try to “multiply” Him.
The problem is not that Trinitarians believe that God is “three in one.” The devil has come as a lamb and has corrupted the church. The problem is that Christians do not open their Bibles. The problem is that once they are shown that GOD is only one, they refuse to believe. You see, that is when you can not blame the evil shepherd any longer. The sheep becomes the goat when they refuse at that point to follow the good shepherd.
+1Quote (david @ April 23 2013,15:33) Quote So who are these true teachers? Well I don't have a full list of names, but I can assure you that it is not exclusive to any denomination. But granted, it is likely that some denominations will have more true teachers than others. Ultimately though, they are likely scattered around the place. T8, what happened to “get out of Babylon the great”. “Flee from her” if you do not wish to suffer the same fate.
Wouldn't a “true teacher” who belongs to a false religion be guilty of embracing Babylon the great?
It ultimately says, “come out of her my people”. So there must be a line where some of God's people are inside, and when those who remain inside her will be judged along with her.So yes, at some point it will become clearer as to who Babylon is and a person who is true would see that and do the right thing. A person who understands this and stays would be doing that because of the state of their heart.
Quote (david @ April 23 2013,15:37) T8, according to kerwin, if you claim to be a teacher and teach false doctrine, then you are a false teacher. (I'm not sure what claiming to be a teacher has to do with anything. One who teaches others is a teacher regardless of what someone claims or doesn't claim.)
But anyway, either you or kerwin would seem to be false teachers right? I mean, you and kerwin don't agree on everything do you? I haven't checked, but I doubt you believe (and argue, and teach) the same things.
How does one know who are the true teachers? By their fruits you will recognize them. But also by what they believe and teach.
Agreed. If Kerwin says I am a false teacher because what I teach is very different to what he teaches, then I think it likely that one or both of us are false teachers. Please respect my language here. I am speaking logically. Of course I do not believe that I am a false teacher. God set me on this path years ago and I saw his hand in that many steps along the way, even when I was weak at the kness so to speak. In addition, scripture sways my view, not the other way round, where some use scripture to back their view. I have always been careful about that distinction because I have no axe to grind or agenda apart from letting the light of truth shine into the darkness. I only want the truth with all my heart and would change a view in an instant if I could see it written.
As far as Kerwin goes, I don't know if he is a false teacher because I do not fully know what he teaches. But I know I have disagreed with some things he says. If he taught another Jesus, then certainly he would be a false teacher.
Quote (jb2u @ April 24 2013,08:55) Additionally, it took them many councils to come up with what this doctrine of the trinity would even be. It was not just one council, Nicene, and everyone said, “OK, that is Biblical truth.” NO, they went back an forth council after council about the particulars of this NEW doctrine.
First the Trinity won out, and Arius was banished. Then a later council threw the Trinity (and Athanasius) out. It went back and forth for quite some time.jb, you truly have a gift. Your posts are inspired, and inspiring.
I will look forward to your one-on-one with Kathi. I have been refuting the Trinity for 4 years now, and thought I had heard it all. Apparently not, because I am learning alot from your posts.
I think a lot of us will learn from a slow, one-point-at-a-time debate between you and Kathi.
Quote (jb2u @ April 20 2013,16:54) I pray that she considers Jesus' words in John 4:22. Here, Jesus reconfirms that the Jews know what they worship, and thus, they worship the correct God.
He even included himself among the group of people who worship the true God by saying “we worship what we know”.Quote (t8 @ April 25 2013,06:57) Quote (david @ April 23 2013,15:37) T8, according to kerwin, if you claim to be a teacher and teach false doctrine, then you are a false teacher. (I'm not sure what claiming to be a teacher has to do with anything. One who teaches others is a teacher regardless of what someone claims or doesn't claim.)
But anyway, either you or kerwin would seem to be false teachers right? I mean, you and kerwin don't agree on everything do you? I haven't checked, but I doubt you believe (and argue, and teach) the same things.
How does one know who are the true teachers? By their fruits you will recognize them. But also by what they believe and teach.
Agreed. If Kerwin says I am a false teacher because what I teach is very different to what he teaches, then I think it likely that one or both of us are false teachers. Please respect my language here. I am speaking logically. Of course I do not believe that I am a false teacher. God set me on this path years ago and I saw his hand in that many steps along the way, even when I was weak at the kness so to speak. In addition, scripture sways my view, not the other way round, where some use scripture to back their view. I have always been careful about that distinction because I have no axe to grind or agenda apart from letting the light of truth shine into the darkness. I only want the truth with all my heart and would change a view in an instant if I could see it written.
As far as Kerwin goes, I don't know if he is a false teacher because I do not fully know what he teaches. But I know I have disagreed with some things he says. If he taught another Jesus, then certainly he would be a false teacher.
t8I agree with you on this ,their also should a difference between a false teacher and some one that teaches what he know at that point of teaching do to lack of understanding or more profound study in scriptures ,this could then be seen by his reaction to new light and accepted to become more truthful in his teaching ,wile the false teacher will remain in his teaching because that is were he his more comfortable in, and so do not lose face to the ones he teaches ,ego becomes his goal.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2013,12:12) Quote (jb2u @ April 24 2013,08:55) Additionally, it took them many councils to come up with what this doctrine of the trinity would even be. It was not just one council, Nicene, and everyone said, “OK, that is Biblical truth.” NO, they went back an forth council after council about the particulars of this NEW doctrine.
First the Trinity won out, and Arius was banished. Then a later council threw the Trinity (and Athanasius) out. It went back and forth for quite some time.jb, you truly have a gift. Your posts are inspired, and inspiring.
I will look forward to your one-on-one with Kathi. I have been refuting the Trinity for 4 years now, and thought I had heard it all. Apparently not, because I am learning alot from your posts.
I think a lot of us will learn from a slow, one-point-at-a-time debate between you and Kathi.
Thank you. You are WAY to kind. I consider myself to be a simple man. I have to read the Bible and take it as truth. Where I see an apparent contradiction, I research to find an answer. Where I see ambiguity, I look at the context and scripture “tie in” with other Bible books.Anyway, thank you again for the kind remarks. I give all credit for any knowledge that I have to GOD!!
jb2u,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote No, because each can only be in that state one at a time. Jbtu,
WRONG!
THE ICE WHILE IN THE FREEZER IS ICE!
BUT AS SOON AS IT IS REMOVED FROM THE ICE BOX AND IT IS IN HIGHER TEMPERATURE,
THE TEMPERATURE (STEEM) THE ICE, AND THE WATER ARE ONE . INSEPRARABLE!
SO THE ICE IS ONE AND THREE,
LIKE WISE
THE WATER AND THE TEMPERATURE,
SINCE THE ICE IS IN THE PROCESS OF BECOMING WATER!
MORE TO COME JUST TO START ANSWERING YOUR POST FULL OF ERRORS!
ALWAYS FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS
Charles
carmel, water has a fourth state. But yeah I understand your point. But that point is that God is three states and one substance. The example cannot equate to three persons though. No example I know of shows us three persons as one being. A three person being made of the same substance? Says who?
Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2013,16:12) t8 I agree with you on this ,their also should a difference between a false teacher and some one that teaches what he know at that point of teaching do to lack of understanding or more profound study in scriptures ,this could then be seen by his reaction to new light and accepted to become more truthful in his teaching ,wile the false teacher will remain in his teaching because that is were he his more comfortable in, and so do not lose face to the ones he teaches ,ego becomes his goal.
Cheers T.
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