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Well, He is called a god not the God. Not a God of anyone. He is Lord.
Consider the Shema. Now, we both know that this is a belief that there is ONE God for the Jews. Not a triune God, but ONE God.
Jesus reconfirms the Shema in Mark 12:28-32. Read it. He doesn't say, “but I have an update for you.”
What about the early church? Paul says 1Cor8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth. (as there be gods many, and lords many). But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER., of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
So, Paul teaches that there is only ONE God and that one God is the Father. Jesus confirms the Shema, which is understood that there is just ONE SINGULAR God, not a triune God. And yet, millions of Christians blindly follow the teachings of the devil. They don't even blink when they see such verses as above. Many, I'd say, probably do not even see these verses. Did you know that the same people that came up with the trinity did not even want the Bible to be translated into different languages? Did you? They actually put to death people that were trying to “get the word out” by translating the Bible, even those that believed in the trinity!!! I wonder why. Maybe because of the above such verses?? It doesn't seem to matter, though. Many can not see what is clearly right in front of them.
So jb2u,
Why would Jesus be a theos in the beginning if He was not to have authority over anyone as a theos?Let's try this…you say He is Lord and that is true. Is God also Lord in your understanding?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,07:51) So jb2u,
Why would Jesus be a theos in the beginning if He was not to have authority over anyone as a theos?Let's try this…you say He is Lord and that is true. Is God also Lord in your understanding?
God is Lord God. I get that from the Bible.What I do not get from the Bible is that Jesus is God, God the son, or a part of a triune God.
By the way, from the beginning, God had a plan for His Son to die for our sins, as a perfect sacrifice, and to reign over us as Lord. He is Lord of lords and King of kings. I get that from the Bible, too.
I am not belittling Jesus' sacrifice or authority. God has appointed him over all of the angels and us. God gave him full authority over our judgement. Jesus' power and authority is GREAT, but it is ALL given Him by..GOD, the ONE true GOD, His Father and ours!! Never does my Bible say that Jesus is God Himself or part of a triune God. If yours does, please give me the Bible verses so that I can see the truth.
Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,12:23) Quote (david @ April 15 2013,07:23) Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
David,That means t8 is being influenced by the evil one just as Peter was when he rebuked Jesus for teachings he found repugnant. If that made Peter a false teacher then anyone that does likewise is also a false teacher.
I will say this, if t8 claims to be a teacher and his teaching are false then he is a false teacher. I hope that he is instead striving to learn and has stumbled like Peter.
Note: miss-addressed this. Now correct.
David,Bumped this so you could read it after I corrected it.
Quote (jb2u @ April 20 2013,09:07) Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,07:51) So jb2u,
Why would Jesus be a theos in the beginning if He was not to have authority over anyone as a theos?Let's try this…you say He is Lord and that is true. Is God also Lord in your understanding?
God is Lord God. I get that from the Bible.What I do not get from the Bible is that Jesus is God, God the son, or a part of a triune God.
By the way, from the beginning, God had a plan for His Son to die for our sins, as a perfect sacrifice, and to reign over us as Lord. He is Lord of lords and King of kings. I get that from the Bible, too.
I am not belittling Jesus' sacrifice or authority. God has appointed him over all of the angels and us. God gave him full authority over our judgement. Jesus' power and authority is GREAT, but it is ALL given Him by..GOD, the ONE true GOD, His Father and ours!! Never does my Bible say that Jesus is God Himself or part of a triune God. If yours does, please give me the Bible verses so that I can see the truth.
Jb2u……. Good and accurate post brother.Peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Thank you Gene and Terraricca. Although I pray that Lightenup will see the truth, I believe my words will be of more benefit to those that may find this website without preconceived notions of a triune God.
My hope for Lightenup is that she takes Acts 17:11 to heart and receives the word with all readiness of mind, and searches the scriptures daily to see if those things be so.
I pray that she considers Jesus' words in John 4:22. Here, Jesus reconfirms that the Jews know what they worship, and thus, they worship the correct God. The God that they worshiped was one God, not a plurity in unity.
Hi jb2u,
You said that Jesus is Lord of everyone except God.Who did the OT Jews believe was the Lord of everyone?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2013,07:28) Hi jb2u,
You said that Jesus is Lord of everyone except God.Who did the OT Jews believe was the Lord of everyone?
kathyGod almighty of cause now this would included Jesus Christ the son of God through whom the father created all other things ,
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2013,12:28) Hi jb2u,
You said that Jesus is Lord of everyone except God.Who did the OT Jews believe was the Lord of everyone?
They believed that the Messiah would be their Lord, but not their God or Lord God. Keep in mind, “Lord” is a title. God is The Lord because he reigns over all. The Son of God is Lord
of lords and King of kings because he reigns over everyone
except GOD. A king is a lord because he reigns over his people.Now, what did the Jews believe…
Let's start in Genesis 3:15, It foretold that God would put enmity between thy seed (satan right) and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
So the Jews knew God would send someone powerful to put
an end to satan. Right?Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Foretold of the coming Prophet.
So, even way back then, they understood that God was
sending someone.Isaiah 7:14 Foretells of the coming Messiah.
Again, the Jews knew a Messiah was coming to lead them!!Isaiah 9:6-7 Through this child, there shall be no end upon the
throne of David and his Kingdom for ever.
So, now we know that this Messiah, was going to rule over
Israel for ever. By the way, this would make the coming
Messiah their Lord. Not Lord God, the provider of the
Messiah, but He would still rule over them as Lord.Isaiah 42:1 He will bring forth judgement to the gentiles.
The Jews were looking for a powerful Messiah indeed!! He
was going to reign over the Jews and Gentiles!!Micah 5:2 For out of thee shall come a Governor that shall rule
My people Israel.
So, the Jews understood that God was sending them a ruler
(that is the word for Governor). What did they call rulers?
That is right, Lord!!Psalm 110 In this Psalm David declares the coming of the one
sent by the Lord to save Israel and reign over her as Lord.Yes, Lightenup, the Jews knew God was sending them a Lord.
They were not confused about the fact that there is but
One GOD, the Father. They knew that He would send them
A Lord that would be powerful and raise them as a people.
What they were not “looking for” was a suffering Messiah.
They were looking for a mighty warrior that would reign.
They did not understand that salvation would come to
the gentiles. We know that God blinded the Jews. We know
that the Jews would have to reject Jesus. Otherwise, they
would have fought to the death for him, right? Jesus HAD to
die in order to bring salvation to the world and put an end
to sin!! The Jews will get their reigning King and Lord that
they have always been looking for upon the second coming
of Christ.Psalm 118:22-29 The corner stone will be rejected. Blessed
be He that cometh in the name of the LORD.
Yes, the Jews knew that God was sending them a mighty
Lord. What they did not realize is that they would reject
Him. I am sure that upon the second coming, they will cry.
They will have their eyes opened, as God says, and they
will realize He was the Messiah, the one that they pierced.Lightenup, are you ready to answer the questions that I asked? I am more than happy to answer your questions. I hope that it helps you, but I'd still like you to answer my questions from before.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2013,12:28) Hi jb2u,
You said that Jesus is Lord of everyone except God.Who did the OT Jews believe was the Lord of everyone?
Hi Kathy:I know you are having a discussion about this with someone and not with me, but maybe I can help.
The Jews knew and we know that YHWH is “The ONE and ONLY TRUE God” and He is over everybody including Jesus.
Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
But God has made Jesus Lord and Christ, and we are subjected to God through him:
Quote 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Quote 1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 22 2013,04:42) Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2013,12:28) Hi jb2u,
You said that Jesus is Lord of everyone except God.Who did the OT Jews believe was the Lord of everyone?
Hi Kathy:I know you are having a discussion about this with someone and not with me, but maybe I can help.
The Jews knew and we know that YHWH is “The ONE and ONLY TRUE God” and He is over everybody including Jesus.
Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
But God has made Jesus Lord and Christ, and we are subjected to God through him:
Quote 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Quote 1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. Love in Christ,
Marty
This is true. What you say does not contradict that which I have said. However, it does contradict the idea that Jesus is YHWH God!! That seems to be Kathy's idea.Again, I believe every word of the Bible. I also know that there are verses that are ambiguous. And so, they must be interpreted not by the verse itself, but by the scripture as a whole.
Trinitarians take the ambiguous verse to “prove” that Jesus is God and then ignore the rest of scripture where it is clear that only the Father is the one true GOD.
For instance, Kathy's idea is elohim is “plural” so that means GOD must be plural in unity. BUT, how does she or other Trinitarians explain why Moses is called elohim by GOD. Is moses a “plural in unity” god too?? Of course not!! And yet, we debate over and over about elohim. When clearly it is just a word to explain the greatness of GOD. GOD assures Israel that GOD is only one. He further clarifies one ALONE!! He knew people would try to “multiply” Him.
The problem is not that Trinitarians believe that God is “three in one.” The devil has come as a lamb and has corrupted the church. The problem is that Christians do not open their Bibles. The problem is that once they are shown that GOD is only one, they refuse to believe. You see, that is when you can not blame the evil shepherd any longer. The sheep becomes the goat when they refuse at that point to follow the good shepherd.
Hi Jb2u:
I agree with you in every thing that you have stated, and I have discussed all of this with Kathy in the past, but somehow, she insists in pursing what she believes to be the truth.
I asked God why he uses the plural when refering to himself, and He has shown me that it is because “He is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords”.
Jesus states this in the following scripture:
Quote Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (Psalm 82) Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
We who are His children are being formed in his image, and thus, we have his divine nature. Jesus is the express image of His person, and we are being conformed to his image.
But the scripture states:
Quote 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; And so, how much clearer does the scripture have to be?
Also, when Jesus was about to ascend into heaven after his resurrection. He said this:
Quote Jhn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
And so, he has made it clear here that he is not my God. He is my Lord, but no, he is not our God.
How much clearer does it need to be for Christians to keep teaching that God is a Tri-une God?
There is no scripture which states this, and if there is no scripture, then God did not say that He is a Tri-une God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote So who are these true teachers? Well I don't have a full list of names, but I can assure you that it is not exclusive to any denomination. But granted, it is likely that some denominations will have more true teachers than others. Ultimately though, they are likely scattered around the place. T8, what happened to “get out of Babylon the great”. “Flee from her” if you do not wish to suffer the same fate.
Wouldn't a “true teacher” who belongs to a false religion be guilty of embracing Babylon the great?
Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,17:23) Quote (david @ April 15 2013,07:23) Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
David,That means t8 is being influenced by the evil one just as Peter was when he rebuked Jesus for teachings he found repugnant. If that made Peter a false teacher then anyone that does likewise is also a false teacher.
I will say this, if t8 claims to be a teacher and his teaching are false then he is a false teacher. I hope that he is instead striving to learn and has stumbled like Peter.
Note: miss-addressed this. Now correct.
T8, according to kerwin, if you claim to be a teacher and teach false doctrine, then you are a false teacher.(I'm not sure what claiming to be a teacher has to do with anything. One who teaches others is a teacher regardless of what someone claims or doesn't claim.)
But anyway, either you or kerwin would seem to be false teachers right? I mean, you and kerwin don't agree on everything do you? I haven't checked, but I doubt you believe (and argue, and teach) the same things.
How does one know who are the true teachers? By their fruits you will recognize them. But also by what they believe and teach.
942767,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 942767,
We all know that GOD IS THE MOST MYSTERIOUS, INVISIBLE, UNKOWN,SPIRIT BEING. AND THE ONLY PROOF OF HIS EXISTENCE FAITH
We also know that MAN IS THE MOST TRUE,OBVIOUS, VISIBLE, KNOWN, CARNAL, BEING. NO NEED OF PROOF FOR HIS EXISTENCE.
NOW THE TROUBLE THOUGH IS TO ESTABLISH WHAT IS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE TWO ABOVE OPPOSING BEINGS!
NOW:
ARE YOU IN THE POSSITION TO DETERMINE WHAT IS THIS ONLY MEDIATOR JESUS CHRIST ?
OBVIOUS IN THE TERMS OF MEDIATOR NOT AS SON OF GOD, SON OF MAN, THE WORD, GOD IN FLESH, AND GOD KNOWS WHAT!
after all without HIM there's for sure NO GOD FOR US HUMANS!
SO LOGICALLY HE IS GOD IN THE TRUTH FOR US!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (carmel @ April 24 2013,08:01) 942767,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 942767,
We all know that GOD IS THE MOST MYSTERIOUS, INVISIBLE, UNKOWN,SPIRIT BEING. AND THE ONLY PROOF OF HIS EXISTENCE FAITH
We also know that MAN IS THE MOST TRUE,OBVIOUS, VISIBLE, KNOWN, CARNAL, BEING. NO NEED OF PROOF FOR HIS EXISTENCE.
NOW THE TROUBLE THOUGH IS TO ESTABLISH WHAT IS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE TWO ABOVE OPPOSING BEINGS!
NOW:
ARE YOU IN THE POSSITION TO DETERMINE WHAT IS THIS ONLY MEDIATOR JESUS CHRIST ?
OBVIOUS IN THE TERMS OF MEDIATOR NOT AS SON OF GOD, SON OF MAN, THE WORD, GOD IN FLESH, AND GOD KNOWS WHAT!
after all without HIM there's for sure NO GOD FOR US HUMANS!
SO LOGICALLY HE IS GOD IN THE TRUTH FOR US!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
I am not sure I am following you Charles.If you ask what is meant by “mediator”? The answer is
in Hebrews 9. It tells us He came to take on the role
as high priest. To offer the perfect sacrifice for us all; so that,
He now stands in the presence of God FOR us.Furthermore, you say “so logically He is God in the truth for us.” The problem is that Hebrews 9:24 tells us that He stands “IN THE PRESENCE of GOD for us.” This is a problem because if He stands before God then He can not be God Himself, right?
Again, I am not sure if I understand what you are trying to say. You say “without HIM there's for sure NO GOD for us humans.” However, that is not true. GOD is our God whether we believe in Him or not, whether we accept Christ's sacrifice or not. The true statement would be…without believing that God sent His only begotten Son to die for ours sins, we will not have everlasting life. Please note, it does not say, you must believe that God transfigured himself into a Man or that “God the Son” came to die for our sins….No, it says that if you believe that GOD, the one true GOD, sent HIS only begotten SON to die for our sins, you will have everlasting life.
I apologize if I misunderstood you.
Quote (carmel @ April 24 2013,08:01) 942767,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 942767,
We all know that GOD IS THE MOST MYSTERIOUS, INVISIBLE, UNKOWN,SPIRIT BEING. AND THE ONLY PROOF OF HIS EXISTENCE FAITH
We also know that MAN IS THE MOST TRUE,OBVIOUS, VISIBLE, KNOWN, CARNAL, BEING. NO NEED OF PROOF FOR HIS EXISTENCE.
NOW THE TROUBLE THOUGH IS TO ESTABLISH WHAT IS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE TWO ABOVE OPPOSING BEINGS!
NOW:
ARE YOU IN THE POSSITION TO DETERMINE WHAT IS THIS ONLY MEDIATOR JESUS CHRIST ?
OBVIOUS IN THE TERMS OF MEDIATOR NOT AS SON OF GOD, SON OF MAN, THE WORD, GOD IN FLESH, AND GOD KNOWS WHAT!
after all without HIM there's for sure NO GOD FOR US HUMANS!
SO LOGICALLY HE IS GOD IN THE TRUTH FOR US!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Hi Charles:The scripture states that the mediator between men and God is “the man, Christ Jesus”.
Hebrews 1 states that “Jesus is the express image of God's person”, and so, through his life in obedience to God's Word we have seen God character manifest through his life. But the scripture states that there is “One God” not two, not three, it states plainly “One”. He not just any man, he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but nevertheless, he is a man. He is the Last Adam, and we who are his disciples are being conformed to his image. The scripture states in Genesis that God made man in his own image. The first Adam was made a living soul, and in 1 Co. 15 we have these scriptures:
Quote 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. He states this when he was about to ascend to his present position at the right hand of the Father:
Quote Jhn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
And so, he himself has told us that he is not God in that he stated that he was going to ascend to his God and our God and to his Father and our Father.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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