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Hi David,
Do you believe that God performed miracles through Jesus Christ and the prophets and apostles?
Is God still able to perform such miracles through His servants now?
Hi david. Welcome back BTW.
I don’t think anyone is saying that miracles are not achieved through logical means in a higher dimensional construct or without great power on high.
What seems magical is explainable in real terms, its just that we do not always have understanding of those real terms. We see through a glass dimly.
When Jesus walked on water, he should have fallen through because of the Law of Gravity and Electromagnetism.
Obviously there are tricks that you can do to make it look like you are walking on water, but if you had power over the laws of the universe, then you could make gravity and electromagnetism obey you, rather than you obey it. After all, Jesus commanded the storm to cease did he not and the reaction from the disciples was:
“The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!””.
While I agree that most if not all magic is accomplished using the four dimensions that we know of and sits logically within the laws of the physical universe, miracles can be accomplished outside of that. After all God is not subject to time for example and a being who sits outside our reality can easily alter things according to his will or to put it another way, hack the matrix.
As a programmer it is not hard to see the equivalent. Years ago I use to build levels for games and was able to create 3-dimensional environments. I could create passages between 2 sectors that were otherwise cut off from each other, but would activate by doing a certain thing. I use to think that beings tied to that world would get the same view as when I played the game, except they were not privy to the hardware and code that made that world what it was. I was able to alter that reality while they were subject to it.
The weird thing is that our perception of the universe is really no different. We have senses that pick up wavelengths and are sent to the brain for processing. What emerges is an experience of the universe, a multi-dimensional space and time construct. Like a TV that picks up a signal and creates a picture, we are at the mercy of the brain interpreting these signals correctly. However, even if we receive them correctly, what we see is really just an image. The universe seems to be an almost infinite or perhaps infinite spectrum, of which we can only receive a small portion. So even within the physical universe there is heaps of data that we never see, receive, or process. Could life forms exist right next to us, yet we not see them because we are not tuned in so to speak.
To then think that miracles are not possible would be ignorant given our very limited position in creation at the moment. We can understand magic when it is explained to us, but miracles of God have much more to draw from than a magician using magic.
After all we are told that all that is visible came from that which is invisible. Even Einstein and other physicists believe that time is an illusion. What if for example, time was not a dimension at all, but our perception. Imagine if time was merely data from the Universe being processed by our brains one packet at a time in a linear fashion. Then the universe would not have time at all, it would be just part of the way we perceive reality for now.
Just saying.
Hi David.
I explain in those posts why I have problems believing what you believe.
You have problems believing what I believe because you were taught what not to believe in.
Hi miia
No, exactly the opposite. I was indoctrinated, trained, programmed from an early age to believe in them. The problem was, I took too deep of an interest. It’s easy to believe in something when you don’t know a lot about it, when you don’t study it deeply and become enthralled with it. You can use al sorts of “arguments from ignorance,” but it becomes harder and harder to justify that belief when the curtain is drawn back and you pull out your microscope. It’s harder to believe that thing exists when you spend your life looking for it and all you find is fraud, self deception, and lies under the microscope.
T8, I am not saying that miracles are not possible here. I am saying that today, what many people call miracles are due to not understanding science or psychology or deception or math or evidence or things like this.
I’ve read “hyperdimension” a couple of times. Fascinated by the way other dimensions are explained by showing how a 3 dimension creature such as U.S. Would appear to a 2 dimension person living in flatland. How normal things for us would even like miracles. I am not here arguing against the impossibility of miracles. I am only saying that people are prone to delusion, prone to “magical thinking,” prone to all sorts of cognitive illusions and cognitive distortions that create a false perception of reality. I’m not even talking about the obvious con artists. I’m talking about coincidence and what the mind does with that. I’m talking about post hoc ergo Procter hoc. (It comes before therefore it was the cause, fallacy).
Using the simplest dumbest most obvious deception I have accidentally convinced people that I have real magical powers. When I was young, my mom said I should not do magic tricks for the elderly or the young because they don’t understand that it is illusion. People are horrible at thinking. If you add in the fact that someone has an emotionally invested bias, their mind is just begging to be deceived. And it will find a way to deceive itself.
Hi miia
No, exactly the opposite. I was indoctrinated, trained, programmed from an early age to believe in them. The problem was, I took too deep of an interest. It’s easy to believe in something when you don’t know a lot about it, when you don’t study it deeply and become enthralled with it. You can use al sorts of “arguments from ignorance,” but it becomes harder and harder to justify that belief when the curtain is drawn back and you pull out your microscope. It’s harder to believe that thing exists when you spend your life looking for it and all you find is fraud, self deception, and lies under the microscope.
Hi David.
Maybe you looked too hard in the wrong places.
No need to answer if you don’t want to but in what way were you indoctrinated, trained and programmed from a young age, any specific denomination?
Miia, have you ever looked up every scripture about prayer and lined them up. With God all things are possible. Mountain like obstacles. Ask anything according to his will and he hears you. Ask anything and he will do it. Whatever you ask it will be yours. Etc.
Have you ever noticed that amputees don’t ever grow limbs back despite those scriptures? Let’s say that there is a Christian amputee who wants to spread the message and he ask and prays and begs for his limb to grow back, for this mountain like obstacle to be removed so that he can carry out his ministry. God simply doesn’t do this. Now, is it a coincidence that the miracles you believe God performs today are things that may happen completely by themselves?
It bothers me when I see a image of a kid with thin arms and thin legs squatted over picking up garbage or crumbs to eat and I think about what he must ask God. Meanwhile over here we have people who pray for meaningless things, believing that God will care, when there are babies who are malnourished and dying who also beg.
I don’t think without looking at the scriptures I see that yo will understand my frustration with this. Over and over the bible says the same thing.
You believe God is helping you with some miracle. Meanwhile thousands of children are dying from things we all take for granted, and many of them are pleading with God for help up until they die. I dont know that this makes sense.
Hi david,
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom and everything else will be added to you.
You will not find it in the Kingdom Halls.
David……HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED THAT THE GREAT SORROW WE FEEL FOR THESE CHILDERN IN OUR HEARTS IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD USES TO TAKE OUT OF US THE HEART OF STONES AND GIVE US A HEART OF FLESH (SOFT HEART) AND THAT IS THE MIRACLE BEING PERFORMED IN US?
BROTHER I ALSO SORROW AND SOME TIMES EVEN CRY FOR THEM, ONCE I SAW A LITTLE CHILD SO DEFORMED I COULD NOT HARDLY LOOK OR EVEN TALK, I WENT OUTSIDE THE ROOM AND SAT DOWN A CRIED AND SAID TO GOD THE FATHER , HOW COULD YOU ALLOW THAT, AND A SOFT VOICE CAME TO ME AND SAID “I DID THAT FOR YOUR SAKE GENE”, IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT THEN IT CAME TO ME, that, that was how THE FATHER WAS MAKING MY HEART BETTER. “FOR WE ARE SORROWED UNTO RIGHTIOUSNESS” AND AGAIN GODLY SORROW WORKS REPENTANCE NOT TO BE REPENTED OF. Imagine if you never saw any thing sorrowful how could you know sorrow, judge nothing GOD THE FATHER ALLOWS before the time. All thing are working to bring about his will and purpose IN ALL CREATION brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………………….gene
Miia, have you ever looked up every scripture about prayer and lined them up. With God all things are possible. Mountain like obstacles. Ask anything according to his will and he hears you. Ask anything and he will do it. Whatever you ask it will be yours. Etc.
Have you ever noticed that amputees don’t ever grow limbs back despite those scriptures? Let’s say that there is a Christian amputee who wants to spread the message and he ask and prays and begs for his limb to grow back, for this mountain like obstacle to be removed so that he can carry out his ministry. God simply doesn’t do this. Now, is it a coincidence that the miracles you believe God performs today are things that may happen completely by themselves?
It bothers me when I see a image of a kid with thin arms and thin legs squatted over picking up garbage or crumbs to eat and I think about what he must ask God. Meanwhile over here we have people who pray for meaningless things, believing that God will care, when there are babies who are malnourished and dying who also beg.
I don’t think without looking at the scriptures I see that yo will understand my frustration with this. Over and over the bible says the same thing.
You believe God is helping you with some miracle. Meanwhile thousands of children are dying from things we all take for granted, and many of them are pleading with God for help up until they die. I dont know that this makes sense.
I agree with gene totally about this and what’s more amazing is that many of these people you assume to be in great sorrow are often MANY times more grateful than you or I could imagine, what you should really be amazed at is how ungrateful are all the people with all their limbs and their belly and pockets full that is a much sadder picture by multiple magnitudes. Your focusing what appears to be bad and imagining the state of those that appear to be doing good to be as you see them but it’s funny because people at all stations cry and have sorrow even many of the wealthy commit suicide while the amputee runs in a marathon and inspires millions. some indulge in addictions because they simply have the luxury to do so, while a little boy that has to walk 2 miles for a bucket of water and feels a great achievement bringing it home to his family. when you say many are pleading with God for help until they die many more are being grateful to God while they LIVE. You see God is Great and we only see in part and can only judge from limited experience. But I have been around the poorest people and they invited me in and fed me and I have been around the wealthiest people and they ignored my hunger and thirst, I have seen the disabled rush to do good and the abled body person not hesitate to do bad but this is all in the Wisdom of God because he knows what you know not, so both rich and poor, able and unabled, wise and foolish all have their own fate and feel differently about it. I have seen poor people who feel if they share their food with you they won’t have anymore so they are very stingy and I have seen rich people who would gladly give you almost whatever you want, I’ve seen a disabled person full of sorrow and regret and even curse God for their plight and an super capable person truly appreciate his physical health and guards it. To the grateful everyday is a day God has made and they rejoice in it and to the ungrateful everyday no matter how blessed it is seems to be a curse…This is the truth
Hi David.
You deny God’s power, are you also denying God? Are you hoping someone here will rescue you, or are you out to cast doubt in people’s mind? Sorry, but that is how it feels.
We all have our own suffering. For some they are hungry. ome are grieving. Some are lonely. Some are in prison. Some are in pain. At any minute disaster could strike: earthquake, tsunami, meteorite. Yet amongst those sufferings we see hope, a glimpse of eternity you might say. A glimpse of something better, a glimpse of something man cannot even comprehend because he has not known it.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.”
When small or big miracles happen, you either deny them or you praise God for them. I would not want to be denying them.
I don’t know if this answers your questions. Others have done that well here. It’s just how I feel, and I hope you might see
I read the start of this thread, and was wondering why you think David does not believe in the power of God? I believe the topic was based on whether he gives people today the ability to perform miracles like he did in biblical days. I didn’t really equate that to him not believing in the power of God. Unless he deleted something before I had a chance to read it.
Hi @UMB5. Welcome.
David from what i remember is or was a Jehovah’s Witness.
The JWs deny the power of God working today – that means all healing, gifts, dreams, visions, etc no longer exist.Hi,
Such a doctrine ignores Acts 2.39
And if God has never stopped offering to share His Spirit then the same power is still available
Of course where unbelief prevails little of it will be visible
mt 13.58
And he did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
The same unbelief that keeps men out of the kingdom
Heb 4 12-19
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