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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:56)
Hi Keith,Matthew 20:20-21, 23
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. YHVH says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.1. Keith, based on what these scriptures teach us, is the right hand position of a ruler GRANTED by the one who is in power? YES or NO?
MikeYour question is loaded and “assumes” that any body that is at the right hand of someone else is inferior or less than the one who’s right hand they are at. The use of the word “Granted” in your question is proof of your assumption.
But the answer can be yes in most cases however in the case of David and YHVH being at David’s right hand is obviously a no because I doubt that David had to “Grant” anything to YHVH but it is more like David submitted to or trusted in “YHVH” at his right hand.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:56)
2.Based on the obvious and honest answer of “YES” to the first question, does being EXALTED or GRANTED the position of “right hand” imply equality with the one who EXALTED or GRANTED another TO that position? YES or NO?
Yes in Jesus case because he is not only given back his previous Glory but he is also “Sovereign” and not subject to the Father, so that makes him “Equal” at this time doesn’t it?Mike you sound like a man that is in a hurry to rush Jesus off the Throne so that you can say “see, Jesus is less than the Father now!” That is pitiful man.
Mike, will the Father demote Jesus “Sovereign Rule” with him when all things were created by him and for him and he still remains forever “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” of heaven and earth?
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 20 2011,07:48) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith, Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jack.
Hi Jack,Who did he purchase it from?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Bump for JackQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:57) Hi Keith, 1. Knowing that Jesus is NOT everything the BEING OF GOD is, can Jesus possibly BE the BEING OF GOD that he is the Son of?
Hi MikeAnother loaded question that is full of assumptions.
We have already seen that “Jesus is “Equal” to the Father in authority and power. That means that Jesus is “Omnipotent” and “Sovereign“.
We also see he is the “radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,…” Heb 1:3
We also see “he is the “Image of the invisible God” or “Visible image of God“”. Col 1:15
We also see “he is in “Very nature God”“. Phil 2:6
We also see he is “the Word that was with God and was God.” John 1:1
We also see that “whatever the Father does, Jesus does“. John 5:18, 19
We also see that “Jesus is Omnipresent“. Matt 28:18 – John 14:23 – Matt 18:20
All the above scriptures say Jesus is like the Father in every way Mike. So the burden of proof is on you to show us how Jesus is not God or like the Father in everyway.
Can you show us how he is not in everyway like the Father? If God is all those things above, and only God is then that means that Jesus “being” is equal to the Father and in fact one with him.
Think of it in terms of fire for our God is a consuming fire.
Mike if you take a candle and light another candle what happened? Is one candle greater than the other?
Is the fire on each candle two different types of fire? Or are they identical and “One fire”? There is no other kind of fire for fire is fire.
Jesus is the “Radiance of Gods Glory” the very essence of who and what God is, kind of like the fire.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:57)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011 @ 03:19)
Yes Jesus is the Son of the Father
Keith, I just counted 41 scriptures that call Jesus the “Son of God”. NOT the “Son of the Father”, but the “Son of GOD”. And that's not even counting the ones that says he is the “Son of THE Living God”, or the ones that refer to him as “God's Son” or “His Son”.In light of these 41+ scriptures, and the 6900+ times that God is referred to by a SINGULAR pronoun such as “He” and “Him”, could you answer my question with a simple YES or NO?
2. According to MANY scriptures, is Jesus the Son of the SINGULAR BEING called “God”? Yes or No?
The question once again is assuming God is a “Singular being”?But as usual even when I answer you ask again.
My answer was…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011 @ 03:19)
Yes Jesus is the Son of the FatherSo is the Father God or not Mike?
If you don’t like my answer then that is too bad. But I answered you and will not answer again.
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 23 2011,06:34) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 20 2011,07:48) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith, Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jack.
Hi Jack,Who did he purchase it from?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Bump for Jack
Read about the exodus from Egypt and you will find your answer. Better yet I will explain it to you seeing that you are inept.Jesus purchased us out of the slavery of sin so we could be HIS people and HIS servants just as God purchased the Israelites from the slavery of Egypt to serve HIM on the mountain.
Your ignorance is willful and you make me sick sometimes.
Lord please grant me patience!
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 23 2011,07:31) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 23 2011,06:34) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 20 2011,07:48) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith, Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jack.
Hi Jack,Who did he purchase it from?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Bump for Jack
Read about the exodus from Egypt and you will find your answer. Better yet I will explain it to you seeing that you are inept.Jesus purchased us out of the slavery of sin so we could be HIS people and HIS servants just as God purchased the Israelites from the slavery of Egypt to serve HIM on the mountain.
Your ignorance is willful and you make me sick sometimes.
Lord please grant me patience!
Jack
Hi Jack,Our views are not really that different! …Jesus paid our sin dept, by dying on the cross [†].
Christ purchased the kingdom for “us” with HIS OWN “God BLOOD”(74).
Luke 1:68-69 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69: And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
2Corinth.5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us
(the HolySpirit)”The Word” of reconciliation. (Isaiah 61:1-4)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,12:44) Now listen real close Mike. The word “Christos” in the greek NT in every case is speaking of Jesus except the “false christ” Jesus warns of.
YOU listen real close, Keith:“Christ” and “Messiah” both mean “anointed one”. Many were anointed by God in the scripture – including Aaron and David and Solomon, etc.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:56)
Hi Keith,Matthew 20:20-21, 23
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. YHVH says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.1. Keith, based on what these scriptures teach us, is the right hand position of a ruler GRANTED by the one who is in power? YES or NO?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,13:34)
MikeYour question is loaded and “assumes” that any body that is at the right hand of someone else is inferior or less than the one who’s right hand they are at. The use of the word “Granted” in your question is proof of your assumption.
But the answer can be yes in most cases however in the case of David and YHVH being at David’s right hand is obviously a no because I doubt that David had to “Grant” anything to YHVH but it is more like David submitted to or trusted in “YHVH” at his right hand.
Keith, my question is not “loaded”, but asks you for an HONEST answer to the scriptures I posted. It seems you cannot HONESTLY just answer the questions as they are asked. I wonder why?
The answer is YES. Based on THOSE scriptures I quoted, the answer is YES! And the words “GRANTED” and “EXALTED” are not MY words, they are the words used in the scriptures I quoted.
And YHVH does not SIT at David's right hand. SITTING at one's right hand means you've been GRANTED or EXALTED TO that position. David HAVING YHVH at his right hand does not mean YHVH SITS at David's right hand, as if David was the ruler who GRANTED YHVH to SIT there in that esteemed position.
But enough games. I'm slowly but surely figuring out how to eliminate your diversions and maneuvers. Watch this:
Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.Keith, based on the information gathered from Acts 5:31, did Jesus just take it upon himself to sit beside his God…………..or was Jesus EXALTED to God's right hand?
I asked:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:56)
2. Based on the obvious and honest answer of “YES” to the first question, does being EXALTED or GRANTED the position of “right hand” imply equality with the one who EXALTED or GRANTED another TO that position? YES or NO?Keith responded:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,13:34)
Yes in Jesus case because he is not only given back his previous Glory but he is also “Sovereign” and not subject to the Father, so that makes him “Equal” at this time doesn’t it?
YES IN JESUS' CASE? So only because we're talking about Jesus, who you want so desperately to be the God who begot him, does it make sense to you that there is equality implied when one EXALTS another to an esteemed position?The answer is NO, Keith. If one person EXALTS another person, the one who EXALTS is higher than the one who WAS EXALTED. That is the common sense logic of the situation. And for you to answer with a “YES” to this question really makes me happy. You see, when Jack must resort to claiming he is the SAME BEING as his father, and when you must resort to giving the total OPPOSITE of the CORRECT ANSWER to a question I ask, it means your case is very weak.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,13:34)
Mike, will the Father demote Jesus “Sovereign Rule” with him when all things were created by him and for him and he still remains forever “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” of heaven and earth?
Keith, according ONLY to scripture, and NOT our own “wishes”, Jesus has been GRANTED BY HIS GOD to sit WITH HIS GOD in the throne OF HIS GOD for a time. After Jesus destroys all the enemies that HIS GOD HAS PLACED AT HIS FEET, then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back TO HIS GOD, who will then be all in all. At this time, Jesus will rule as PRINCE of God from the throne, not of God, but of David.He will be the King of kings as far as everyone else is concerned, but to God, “he will be their Prince, and I will be their God”.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,14:20)
The question once again is assuming God is a “Singular being”?But as usual even when I answer you ask again.
Okay, then let me ask a completely different question:Keith, according to scripture, is Jesus the Son of the SINGLE BEING of God?
mike
Keith and Jack:
1 Chronicles 29:23
So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of his father David. He prospered and all Israel obeyed him.Do you guys think this verse is teaching us that David's throne was LITERALLY God's Throne?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,20:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,12:44) Now listen real close Mike. The word “Christos” in the greek NT in every case is speaking of Jesus except the “false christ” Jesus warns of.
YOU listen real close, Keith:“Christ” and “Messiah” both mean “anointed one”. Many were anointed by God in the scripture – including Aaron and David and Solomon, etc.
mike
MikeListen real close.
There is only One “Christos” in scripture.
There is only One “Messiah” spoken of in scripture.
Unless you can show me a verse that says “Christ” (Christos) is ascribed to any other then you are just blowing in the wind.
David or any others were not “Christ” or the “Messiah”. Jesus had the Spirit without measure.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,21:21) Keith and Jack: 1 Chronicles 29:23
So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of his father David. He prospered and all Israel obeyed him.Do you guys think this verse is teaching us that David's throne was LITERALLY God's Throne?
mike
MikeIt was a “type” of Gods literal Throne in heaven in which Jesus now sits in and will forever reign.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,03:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,20:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,12:44) Now listen real close Mike. The word “Christos” in the greek NT in every case is speaking of Jesus except the “false christ” Jesus warns of.
YOU listen real close, Keith:“Christ” and “Messiah” both mean “anointed one”. Many were anointed by God in the scripture – including Aaron and David and Solomon, etc.
mike
MikeListen real close.
There is only One “Christos” in scripture.
There is only One “Messiah” spoken of in scripture.
Unless you can show me a verse that says “Christ” (Christos) is ascribed to any other then you are just blowing in the wind.
David or any others were not “Christ” or the “Messiah”. Jesus had the Spirit without measure.
WJ
Keith,Christ predicted that false teachers would come and say that there is more than one Christ. Mike fulfills the prophecy.
Jack
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,21:05) But enough games. I'm slowly but surely figuring out how to eliminate your diversions and maneuvers. Watch this: Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.Keith, based on the information gathered from Acts 5:31, did Jesus just take it upon himself to sit beside his God…………..or was Jesus EXALTED to God's right hand?
Is that all you have? Why do you keep tying to build these straw men arguments based on Jesus when he was in the flesh? Remember Mike, Jesus was the Word that was with God and was God who emptied himself and became poor for us and then returned to his previous Glory which he had with the Father. So anytime you mention the Father exalting him or giving Jesus anything simply means he returned back to Jesus what Jesus already shared with the Father before time.Jesus took it upon himself to leave being with the Father in all of his Glory and then to return back to that Glory. Remember Jesus was the servant Messiah for a season but now has returned to the Father and reigns Sovereign in the Throne of God which is the Throne of David forever.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,21:05) I asked:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:56)
2. Based on the obvious and honest answer of “YES” to the first question, does being EXALTED or GRANTED the position of “right hand” imply equality with the one who EXALTED or GRANTED another TO that position? YES or NO?Keith responded:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 22 2011,13:34)
Yes in Jesus case because he is not only given back his previous Glory but he is also “Sovereign” and not subject to the Father, so that makes him “Equal” at this time doesn’t it?
YES IN JESUS' CASE? So only because we're talking about Jesus, who you want so desperately to be the God who begot him, does it make sense to you that there is equality implied when one EXALTS another to an esteemed position?
See above. Blow that straw man down.Wake up Mike. Jesus has “Sovereign Rule” over the entire universe and all things are in his hands.
No one could be that or do that unless he is God or equal to God!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,10:22) Mike Listen real close.
There is only One “Christos” in scripture.
There is only One “Messiah” spoken of in scripture.
Unless you can show me a verse that says “Christ” (Christos) is ascribed to any other then you are just blowing in the wind.
Again, no, YOU listen real close!This is the definition for the Hebrew word we translate as “messiah”
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kingsRight from the very definition we learn that Cyrus was also a “messiah”, right?
But you want a scripture? Okay:
Lev 4:16
Then the high priest must bring some of the blood of the bull to the Meeting Tent,Keith, this really says, “the messiah priest”. And there are many scriptures like this where God speaks of His “anointed ones”, meaning “His messiahs”. Here's another:
1Ch 16:22
saying, “Don’t touch my anointed ones! Don’t harm my prophets!”This really says, “Don't touch my messiahs!”. And yes, in both of these scriptures, and all the others that speak of various messiahs, the LXX translates it as “christs”.
And we all know that God foretold about His MESSIAH/CHRIST Cyrus at least 400 years before he was even born.
So, there are two of the many verses………..what say you?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,10:52) Mike It was a “type” of Gods literal Throne in heaven in which Jesus now sits in and will forever reign.
WJ
Okay, I can understand your logic at least. So when God says Jesus will sit in the throne of David and rule forever, He is really saying “Throne of God”? And if that's the case, and the throne of David is really “God's Throne”, then God Himself rules from a throne called “the throne of David”, right?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,14:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,10:22) Mike Listen real close.
There is only One “Christos” in scripture.
There is only One “Messiah” spoken of in scripture.
Unless you can show me a verse that says “Christ” (Christos) is ascribed to any other then you are just blowing in the wind.
Again, no, YOU listen real close!This is the definition for the Hebrew word we translate as “messiah”
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kingsRight from the very definition we learn that Cyrus was also a “messiah”, right?
But you want a scripture? Okay:
Lev 4:16
Then the high priest must bring some of the blood of the bull to the Meeting Tent,Keith, this really says, “the messiah priest”. And there are many scriptures like this where God speaks of His “anointed ones”, meaning “His messiahs”. Here's another:
1Ch 16:22
saying, “Don’t touch my anointed ones! Don’t harm my prophets!”This really says, “Don't touch my messiahs!”. And yes, in both of these scriptures, and all the others that speak of various messiahs, the LXX translates it as “christs”.
And we all know that God foretold about His MESSIAH/CHRIST Cyrus at least 400 years before he was even born.
So, there are two of the many verses………..what say you?
mike
Sorry MikeNone of those scriptures use the word “Christos”. Where is the word “Christos” reffering to anyone but Jesus and false “Christos”.
There is no other “Messiah” Mike and no other “Christ”.
The New Testament scriptures talk about us being anointed but the Greek word used is “chrisma”.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2011,15:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,10:52) Mike It was a “type” of Gods literal Throne in heaven in which Jesus now sits in and will forever reign.
WJ
Okay, I can understand your logic at least. So when God says Jesus will sit in the throne of David and rule forever, He is really saying “Throne of God”? And if that's the case, and the throne of David is really “God's Throne”, then God Himself rules from a throne called “the throne of David”, right?mike
MikeThe Throne of David was a type of the Throne of God but now that Jesus sits in the Throne of God it is no longer the Throne of David but it is the Throne of God and Jesus.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,11:39)
So anytime you mention the Father exalting him or giving Jesus anything simply means he returned back to Jesus what Jesus already shared with the Father before time.
What about the PRINCE part? 5:31 says Jesus was exalted as PRINCE. Compare those words with these words:Ezekiel 34:24
I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.Who is this “SERVANT DAVID” who will be “THEIR PRINCE” while YHVH will be “THEIR GOD“?
Keith, Jesus is our High Priest who sits at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Heb 8:1) This High Priest TO God, sits at the right hand OF the One he calls “my God”, and waits for his God to place his enemies at his feet. (Rev 3:21 and Heb 10:13) While the Meditator BETWEEN God and mankind waits for this to happen, he intercedes with God on our behalf. (1 Tim 2:5 and Romans 8:34) What does “intercede” mean?
1. to act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition: to intercede with the governor for a condemned man.
2. to attempt to reconcile differences between two people or groups; mediate.So basically, Jesus was exalted BY HIS GOD to the right hand OF HIS GOD, where he pleads WITH HIS GOD on our behalf.
What part of any of this says “equality”?
It is beyond me how an intelligent person could think a Priest TO God could be the God he is the Priest to. Or that a Son OF the SINGLE BEING OF GOD could be the God he is the Son OF. Or how a Mediator BETWEEN God and man could be the God he mediates BETWEEN. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,11:39)
Jesus took it upon himself to leave being with the Father in all of his Glory and then to return back to that Glory.
NO! Jesus willingly went, but Jesus was SENT on this mission by the direct COMMAND of his God.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,11:39)
Remember Jesus was the servant Messiah for a season but now has returned to the Father and reigns Sovereign in the Throne of God which is the Throne of David forever.
Ah, so I was right? You DO think the Throne of God is literally called “the throne of my servant David”? Is God a servant named David? If not, then why would His throne be called that?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2011,11:39)
Wake up Mike. Jesus has “Sovereign Rule” over the entire universe and all things are in his hands.No one could be that or do that unless he is God or equal to God!
Or unless he has been GIVEN the power BY his God to do this, right? Keith, do you imply that God uses every ounce of His unlimited power to rule the universe? God could have given Jesus one one-billionth of His power, and that would be enough power to rule the universe. Get it?In other words, God could be simultaneously ruling over a zillion universes right now, but has for the time being, given His Son the amount of power it takes to rule over only one – ours. The power that God has given Jesus might amount to a microscopic speck on the football field that is God's total amount of power.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,14:01) Sorry Mike None of those scriptures use the word “Christos”. Where is the word “Christos” reffering to anyone but Jesus and false “Christos”.
Hi Keith,You better get on NETNotes and check the LXX of both of those scriptures. The word I'm reading is “christos”.
Let me know what you find.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2011,14:14) Mike The Throne of David was a type of the Throne of God but now that Jesus sits in the Throne of God it is no longer the Throne of David but it is the Throne of God and Jesus.
WJ
Oh…………..but doesn't it say that there will be no end to someone sitting in the throne OF DAVID? Where is the scripture that tells you that the “throne of David” stopped being called the “throne of David” and began to be called the “Throne of God”?mike
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