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Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2011,21:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,03:51) Of course it isn't the issue with you because to answer the question honestly you have to agree that Jesus is no less in nature than God the Father. You would have to admit that Jesus is in nature everything the Father is which can only mean that he is God.
WJ, have you not read where I have posted many times that Jesus existed with divine nature/form of God.My point still stands and that is it makes no difference if Jesus has equal divine nature or not. The difference is not theos in quality but theos in identity.
How many times does that point need to be drummed into your head only for you to ask the same question, which still has the same answer.
It would be wise for you accept my answer and challenge it rather, than trying to change my answer. My answer is final, unless you can show otherwise.
Same goes for you too Kangaroo. Please read my answer and challenge that, rather than trying to change my answer into Jesus has less divine nature than the Father. I haven't even brought this point up, so it is a non-issue at best or a diversionary tactic at worst.
t8It is you that claims God in reference to Jesus is qualitative.
So you have to prove that John 1:1 or all the other passages of scripture that refer to Jesus as God should only be understood qualitatively and how Jesus is qualitatively less in nature than the Father.
This is simple stuff. A human is human by his nature. Every species or being is known by its nature.
So what is Jesus by nature t8?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 17 2011,01:38) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2011,21:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,03:51) Of course it isn't the issue with you because to answer the question honestly you have to agree that Jesus is no less in nature than God the Father. You would have to admit that Jesus is in nature everything the Father is which can only mean that he is God.
WJ, have you not read where I have posted many times that Jesus existed with divine nature/form of God.My point still stands and that is it makes no difference if Jesus has equal divine nature or not. The difference is not theos in quality but theos in identity.
How many times does that point need to be drummed into your head only for you to ask the same question, which still has the same answer.
It would be wise for you accept my answer and challenge it rather, than trying to change my answer. My answer is final, unless you can show otherwise.
Same goes for you too Kangaroo. Please read my answer and challenge that, rather than trying to change my answer into Jesus has less divine nature than the Father. I haven't even brought this point up, so it is a non-issue at best or a diversionary tactic at worst.
t8It is you that claims God in reference to Jesus is qualitative.
So you have to prove that John 1:1 or all the other passages of scripture that refer to Jesus as God should only be understood qualitatively and how Jesus is qualitatively less in nature than the Father.
This is simple stuff. A human is human by his nature. Every species or being is known by its nature.
So what is Jesus by nature t8?
WJ
Hi WJ,Is a Mulatto black by nature or white by nature?
Jesus was both: the “Son of God” and the “Son of Man”!
Why do you try to push him one way, while others the other way?Think about it!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,21:28) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 14 2011,16:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)
So where are we now, Keith? The explanations of your “NO” answer didn't pan out, did they? So my question remains, but I'll restate it for you now:1 Corinthians 15 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father……..Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ……..the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Keith, based on the words of the above scripture, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?
No the scripture doesn’t say “he will turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? The scriptures say “His (Jesus) Kingdom and dominion is forever“.Nowhere does it say he will cease to be “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom does it Mike?
Nowhere does it say he will not have “Sovereign rule” with the Father does it Mike?
Nowhere does the scriptures say the Father will remove Jesus out of the “Throne of God” does it Mike?
Mike do you have a scripture that says Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” or have less authority and power in “His” and “the Fathers” Kingdom?
Will all things still belong to Jesus or not?
WJ
Keith,At least Mike admits that jesus is sovereign NOW. Seeing that Mike lives NOW, then Jesus is MIKE'S Sovereign Ruler!
Jack
Hi JackTrue. Mike has also disproved his own argument that someone being at the right hand of someone else does not mean that the one who is at the right hand of the other is “inferior” because the scriptures say YHVH was at David's right hand and we know that YHVH was not inferior to David.
Burn down that straw man!
WJ
Does God have a literal right hand? or is this just a figure of speech.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 17 2011,01:38) It is you that claims God in reference to Jesus is qualitative.
WJ, again. All who are called theos (barring false gods of course) are that in a qualitative sense. Only the Father is that in identity. (The God.) So if Jesus is called theos it will be in that sense and not as the Most High in identity.Likewise all who are adam/man are that in nature or qualitatively. Only Adam is both qualitatively and in identity the original Adam.
There is one God the Father, For US anyway). Obviously not for you by your own admission.
No point in violating the first commandment, in my opinion.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 17 2011,01:38) So what is Jesus by nature t8?
Although he existed with divine nature/form of God…Come on WJ. How many times do I have to repeat myself. My 5 year old son asks a lot of questions too, but not the same questions over and over because he learns and moves onto greater things.
T8, i think ya believe in the same thing, its just a miscommunication.
like what happend in the “freewill” thread.define your terms.
this will help.I shouldn't need to define the terms as I have repeated them too many times to count now.
But here goes:
He existed in the form of God/divine nature, emptied himself, came in the form of man/human nature, humbled himself, died, was resurrected to the glory he had with the Father before the world begun.Now even though I can support this statement with scripture, both WJ and Gene have problems with it and continually try to find fault with it. I think it is because they are both on different sides of the extremities and it goes against what both believe and teach. But as I said before, it is merely a repetition of scripture in simple form.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,03:28) Hi Jack True. Mike has also disproved his own argument that someone being at the right hand of someone else does not mean that the one who is at the right hand of the other is “inferior” because the scriptures say YHVH was at David's right hand and we know that YHVH was not inferior to David.
Hi Keith,Let me try to help you out here, since you disregarded the information I posted from Blue Letter Bible.
The “right hand” is a way of saying “power”………..just like the source you repeatedly posted said. So when it is said that God rescued His people out of Egypt with a mighty RIGHT HAND, what is meant is that God delivered the Israelites by means of His MIGHTY POWER. That is ONE use of “right hand” in the scriptures.
That particular use is displayed in the Book of Job, where God is asking Job if he could do all the powerful things that God did by Job's own RIGHT HAND. God was asking Job if he could create the world and tell the lightening bolts where to land, etc…………..by his OWN POWER.
Remember Keith, this is but ONE of the uses of “right hand” in the scriptures.
The second use I will address is “standing at one's RIGHT HAND”. As shown by Gesenius in Blue Letter, (which I posted for you), STANDING at one's right hand is a way of saying that one is BEING EMPOWERED BY the one who stands at his right hand. For example, if David and Joab were fighting side by side in a battle, and they won, David could later say that he won because he had Joab “standing at his right hand”……….thereby HELPING or EMPOWERING David.
This is the use in Psalm 16:8, where David says that God is at his right hand. It means that God is HELPING him, or EMPOWERING him. The metaphoric act of one standing at another's right hand does not in itself imply that one of them is stronger or greater than the other. But since in the case of 16:8, it is the God OF David who stands at his right hand, we can surmise that the One at his right hand is greater than him………..agreed?
Likewise, in the case of Psalm 110:5, it is the God OF Jesus who stands at his right hand, therefore making it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that the One at Jesus' right hand is greater than Jesus. For the “God” OF anyone is greater than that one. Besides, Jesus straight out told us that his God was not only greater than him, but greater than all.
Which brings us to the third use of “right hand” that I will discuss in this post. This use involves someone SITTING at another's right hand. In this case, the right hand is a POSITION. It is a place of honor and power that was GIVEN by the one whose right hand you are at. It does NOT imply any kind of equality, simply because it's not a matter of two persons co-deciding to stand side by side, one at the left and one at the right. Rather, it is a matter of the ONE who is higher DELEGATING that honored position TO another.
Just as Jesus said it was not up to him to GRANT who sits at his own right or left. See Keith? The POSITION is GRANTED to the ones at the right and the left BY the ONE in power. They don't take it upon themselves to just decide they're going to sit there.
And whoever God decides to DELEGATE to the right hand of Jesus will be in the most honored position of all………………..RELATIVE to Jesus himself. Jesus will remain higher than the ones at his right and at his left. They will NOT be equal to Jesus, and they will definitely NOT be the same being as Jesus. In turn, God will remain higher than the ones who sit at His right and His left………….although the one at His right is higher than the one at His left. Nevertheless, the One in the middle remains higher than both of them.
Does this help you out Keith? I get the feeling that you already understand this, but must PRETEND that you don't because admitting you do messes with your “Jesus is God” crap.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,09:29) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
You mean scriptures like John 1:1 or Matt 28:19? Why don’t you acknowledge the obvious meaning of John 1:1 which 99% of the scholarly world accepts, without inferring words or your own interpretation?
Hi Keith,What is OBVIOUS about 1:1 is that we know from Rev that Jesus is the Word OF God, so therefore not the God he is the Word OF.
What is obvious is that you are in denial and living in a little world of your own, because if John 1:1 could have been translated that way it would have been by the cream of Greek scholarship, but we do not find any of the major translations rendering the verse as…“In the beginning was the “Word of God” and the “Word of God” was with God and the “Word of God” was God”, do we?
Jesus merely has the name “The word of God” because he only speaks the Word of God and not because he is the “spoken Word of God”.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:15
That sharp sword is the “Word of God” proceeding out of Jesus mouth. Eph 6:17 – Heb 4:12
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) Also, we know that the being of God cannot possibly be said to be WITH the being of God.
You mean like God with “a god”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) A sane person does not say, “Mike was WITH Mike, and WAS Mike”.
What are you saying Mike, that John was insane for saying the Word that was with God was God? Are you saying that all the translators of the major translations are insane. No it is insane to deny the truth that stares you in the face.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) For any one thing to be WITH a thing, it is common sense that there are two things involved. But if you want to discuss 1:1 further, let's do it in the “John 1:1-3” thread that I believe Nick Hassan started. I've already got some info there to start with.
Trinitarians do not deny that there are two persons in John 1:1 that were with each other. We believe that the term God identifies the 2 persons as One. But you have to deny this and add words or your own translation and change the text.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) As far as 28:19, what is there to say? IF the scripture is REAL, which is unlikely simply because no one in scripture ever baptized with this formula, it still says nothing about a plural
You lose because you claim corruption in the text with no proof which proves that you must think it is speaking of a Trinity.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) I recently watched something on Youtube which quoted the words of a Catholic Pope saying that the Catholic Church changed that verse from “in my name” to what it says now.
No Mike. The Catholic Pope didn’t change the text but only changed the formula of how they baptized.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
I don’t see the words “Jesus will eventually turn this “SOVEREIGN” reign he has been given by his God back over to his God”. Do you?It says he will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father….
Think Keith. If you agree that “Sovereign” implies the ONE who is the highest, then it cannot possibly be used to refer to one who has SUBJECTED HIMSELF TO ANOTHER, can it? (Please answer this.)
No you should think Mike. You said…Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27) Because 1 Cor 15 is very specific about “God Himself” “regaining the Sovereign Reign from Jesus.” And “God Himself” will be “all in all”.
If Jesus has “Sovereign rule” then that “implies he is the “ONE” who is the “highest” authority and power, like you said. Jesus is ‘Sovereign Ruler” right now and is not subject to the Father but does that mean the Father is inferior to Jesus? Burn that straw man down!WJ
You see how you do it Keith? Out of the 75 points we were struggling back and forth with that DID have to do with the issue, you focus most of your above post on the John 1:1 and Matthew 28:19 DIVERSIONS that you inserted into our discussion of right hand and Sovereign.
This is how you often “swing” the conversation back to the two or three “proof texts” that you think are your strongest……….no matter what the actual current debate is about! And I usually go with it because your arguments concerning 1:1 and 28:19 are so lame in the first place that I can't help myself. But this time, I will stick to the ISSUE AT HAND…………and so will you.Quote If Jesus has “Sovereig
n rule” then that “implies he is the “ONE” who is the “highest” authority and power, like you said.
Yes Keith. Jesus is the Sovereign Ruler of all of existence right now. But like Paul points out in 1 Cor 15 to those who may have been mentally slow, “when we say 'ALL EXISTENCE', it is CLEAR that this does not include God Himself………….WHO IS THE ONE THAT PLACED JESUS IN THE POSITION HE NOW HOLDS IN THE FIRST PLACE”.Keith, do the scriptures say that Jesus took it upon himself to be the Sovereign Ruler until he subjects himself to his God and begins to rule from his REAL throne – the one that belonged to David?
Or do they say that his God has “granted” and “given” and “set” and “placed” him where he is today? The answer is the latter choice, Keith. Jesus rules Supreme right now from the throne of his God, simply because his God has GRANTED him to sit there and rule from His throne for a while.
The One who has ALL OF THE POWER has GRANTED His Son a RELATIVE “all power and authority” to rule in His stead……………FOR A WHILE ONLY. After this “while”, Jesus will return to the throne his God has GRANTED him to rule from forever………….the throne of David.
Keith, half of me wants to shout, “WHEN DID YOUR GRASP OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND BASIC HUMAN COMMON SENSE BECOME SO WEAK?” But then reality kicks in. And I realize as clear as a cymbol clanging that that's all you and Jack are………….clanging cymbols. You are both smart men. You both have a perfectly logical understanding of the human language. And you both know EXACTLY what t8 and I have been saying to you in this last few pages of this thread.
But you must PRETEND that you don't understand. You PRETEND that Jesus can be the God whose right hand he has been GRANTED to sit at. You KNOW in your heart of hearts and your mind of minds that what you claim is ridiculous. You KNOW that you are playing little word games when you PURPOSELY and FALSELY imply that being the Son of Man – A SPECIES – means the same as being the Son of the Living God – AN IDENTITY.
You must PRETEND because you have so much of yourself wrapped up in this comically flawed man-made doctrine that you can't allow yourself to let go of it even though you are smart enough to know it MUST be false.
Come on Keith, can the Son OF the One IDENTIFIED as the Being of God actually BE that same God? Can a Priest OF God BE God? Can a mediator BETWEEN God and mankind BE God? Does God Almighty have someone he calls “MY God”? Can God subject himself TO God?
The list goes on an on and on, my friend.
Right now, you are playing stupid with t8 about “qualitive” and “identity”. You say Jesus is in nature “God”, so therefore the BEING OF GOD. That is beyond stupid, Keith. I am in the nature of adam, but in no way am I the BEING OF ADAM.
God is a PERSON, not a SPECIES. Jesus either IS the BEING OF GOD, or he is NOT. It's as simple as that. And he can't possibly be the BEING OF GOD if he is the SON of the BEING OF GOD. He can't be the BEING OF GOD if the BEING OF GOD is both OUR God and HIS God. He can't be the BEING OF GOD if he sits at the right hand OF the BEING OF GOD.
Keith, answer just ONE question for me at this time:
Do you or do you not believe that Jesus is the Son of the SINGULAR BEING we know as “God”?
mike
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2011,08:11) How many times do I have to repeat myself? My 5 year old son asks a lot of questions too, but not the same questions over and over because he learns and moves onto greater things.
Hi t8,Just as a general rule – not pointed at anyone in particular:
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level…………..and then beat you with experience.
mike
Hi Mike
I was going to answer your other post but seeing that you totally skipped over my post and just posted a bunch of insults I figured I would just address this one.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,09:29)
If Jesus has “Sovereign rule” then that “implies he is the “ONE” who is the “highest” authority and power, like you said. Jesus is ‘Sovereign Ruler” right now and is not subject to the Father but does that mean the Father is inferior to Jesus? Burn that straw man down!WJ
You see how you do it Keith? Out of the 75 points we were struggling back and forth with that DID have to do with the issue, you focus most of your above post on the John 1:1 and Matthew 28:19 DIVERSIONS that you inserted into our discussion of right hand and Sovereign.
No Diversion. Look again, my last response and most of my post is about his “Sovereign Rule”. You just have to join with t8 with all these insults.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06)
Quote If Jesus has “Sovereign rule” then that “implies he is the “ONE” who is the “highest” authority and power, like you said.
Yes Keith. Jesus is the Sovereign Ruler of all of existence right now.
That means to the universe he is God for by him all things consist and are upheld by the word of his power. If you and t8 are honest you would admit that “Qualitatively” Jesus is God like the Father. But I don’t expect you will ever agree to that but would rather hold tight to your “Arian” and “Henotheistic beliefs”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Keith, do the scriptures say that Jesus took it upon himself to be the Sovereign Ruler until he subjects himself to his God and begins to rule from his REAL throne – the one that belonged to David?
Look again Mike, all of the scriptures prophesying of the “Throne of David” is the “Throne of God”.Jesus will rule in the throne with the Father forever as Sovereign King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06)
Or do they say that his God has “granted” and “given” and “set” and “placed” him where he is today? The answer is the latter choice, Keith. Jesus rules Supreme right now from the throne of his God, simply because his God has GRANTED him to sit there and rule from His throne for a while.
This is a “straw man” that you keep trying to build and keeps falling down. Jesus emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and went back to his previous Glory that he had with the Father when all things came into being by him.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06)
The One who has ALL OF THE POWER has GRANTED His Son a RELATIVE “all power and authority” to rule in His stead……………FOR A WHILE ONLY. After this “while”, Jesus will return to the throne his God has GRANTED him to rule from forever………….the throne of David.
Straw man! See above!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Keith, half of me wants to shout, “WHEN DID YOUR GRASP OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND BASIC HUMAN COMMON SENSE BECOME SO WEAK?”
This is a weak Insult from a desperate man who doesn't know what else to do but attack the person with insults. Keep this up and you will be matching JA with his rudeness.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) But then reality kicks in. And I realize as clear as a cymbol clanging that that's all you and Jack are………….clanging cymbols. You are both smart men. You both have a perfectly logical understanding of the human language. And you both know EXACTLY what t8 and I have been saying to you in this last few pages of this thread.
More insults contrived out of frustration.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) But you must PRETEND that you don't understand. You PRETEND that Jesus can be the God whose right hand he has been GRANTED to sit at. You KNOW in your heart of hearts and your mind of minds that what you claim is ridiculous. You KNOW that you are playing little word games when you PURPOSELY and FALSELY imply that being the Son of Man – A SPECIES – means the same as being the Son of the Living God – AN IDENTITY.
Straw man because God is not just an ‘Identity”. God is a metaphysical being in a class of his own and that is why Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son” because he is in every way like his Father who is God. When did you throw away common sense that says a Father can’t have a Son who is not totally like him in nature as a human for instance.To you and t8 Jesus is some sort of demi-god. A half breed or freak of nature.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) You must PRETEND because you have so much of yourself wrapped up in this comically flawed man-made doctrine that you can't allow yourself to let go of it even though you are smart enough to know it MUST be false.
Look in the mirror Mike. I know in whom I have believed. My Jesus is bigger than yours Mike. You serve a “little god”, and you have even admitted that Jesus is your “god”. Ha Ha. The Joke is on you Mike. By the way how did that request go to silence me for calling you a Polytheist, because isn't that what you and t8 are? Actually you are more like a Henotheist. You both “believe” in other gods yet you claim you only be
lieve in one. Ha Ha, and then you lecture me about the English language and word games. Its like t8 using those word games like “Adam is Adam in identity and adam is adam qualitatively.So to identify a “dog” as a ‘dog” doesn’t mean it is “a Dog” because it is not the original Dog. Nonsense!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Come on Keith, can the Son OF the One IDENTIFIED as the Being of God actually BE that same God?
Yep, One Spirit, One essence that makes God, God. But to you he is “a god”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Can a Priest OF God BE God? Can a mediator BETWEEN God and mankind BE God? Does God Almighty have someone he calls “MY God”? Can God subject himself TO God?
Straw man. That is like saying can a priest of a human be human. When are you going to get it Mike?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Right now, you are playing stupid with t8 about “qualitive” and “identity”. You say Jesus is in nature “God”, so therefore the BEING OF GOD. That is beyond stupid, Keith. I am in the nature of adam, but in no way am I the BEING OF ADAM.
More of your insults but Okay…To me what is stupid is to say “I have a god who’s name is Jesus but he is not really my god because I only have one God and that is the Father.
To me what is stupid is to say “I believe in “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” and yet say “I believe in “OTHER TRUE GODS”.
To me what is stupid is to say that someone other than God can uphold the entire universe by the word of his power.
To me what is stupid is to say that someone other than God holds all things together.
To me it is stupid to say that YHVH by himself, alone, and with none other created all things and then say that YHVH created all things through someone.
To me what is stupid is to say that a “finite being” or someone other than God can possess infinite power and authority.
To me what is stupid is to say a being other than God can be omnipresent and not be God.
To me what is stupid is to say that a being can do all things God does and not be God.
I could go on since you started the insults against my faith and continue with how ludicrous your faith is.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) God is a PERSON, not a SPECIES. Jesus either IS the BEING OF GOD, or he is NOT. It's as simple as that. And he can't possibly be the BEING OF GOD if he is the SON of the BEING OF GOD. He can't be the BEING OF GOD if the BEING OF GOD is both OUR God and HIS God. He can't be the BEING OF GOD if he sits at the right hand OF the BEING OF GOD.
If he is everything that being is then he is that being.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06)
Keith, answer just ONE question for me at this time:Do you or do you not believe that Jesus is the Son of the SINGULAR BEING we know as “God”?
Are you sure you know him as God because you do not seem to know who Jesus is and without knowing him you cannot know the Father? Did you catch that Mike? You can’t know God unless you know Jesus. So how do you separate “God” from Jesus if you can’t know God apart from him?Yes Jesus is the Son of the Father. But God is a plural being of which you cannot separate the essence of because you can’t know the Father without Jesus and you can’t know Jesus without the Father and you can’t receive anything from God but from Jesus and none of it comes apart from the Holy Spirit?
That means Jesus is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Mike, just answer this..
Can you know who God is unless you know who Jesus is?
If you have Jesus, do you have God?
Therefore to us Jesus is everything that the Father is which means he is God!
WJ
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,20:18) [Let me try to help you out here, since you disregarded the information I posted from Blue Letter Bible. The “right hand” is a way of saying “power”………..just like the source you repeatedly posted said. So when it is said that God rescued His people out of Egypt with a mighty RIGHT HAND, what is meant is that God delivered the Israelites by means of His MIGHTY POWER. That is ONE use of “right hand” in the scriptures.
The point you originally made was…Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
Show any “right hand man” in the history of the world that was ABSOLUTELY EQUAL TO, or THE SAME BEING AS the one whose right hand he was at.You cannot Keith, because the occasion of this happening simply does not exist.
Now we see that a right hand man can be equal to or even greater to the one he is at the right hand of.You have admitted now that Jesus is “Sovereign” and not subject to the Father which means that he is “Equal” to the Father.
So your straw man argument that some one at the right hand of another can't be equal to them is burnt to the ground, especially since Jesus is not only metaphorically at the Fathers right hand but also sits in the Throne of God!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,08:54) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,03:16) WAS HE A PUPPET ON A STRING THAT COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN?
Not a puppet because puppets are dead.But he definitely did nothing of his own accord.
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Hopefully Jesus answer is good enough for you. If not, then we can't help you until you actually believe the words of Jesus.
t8Are you forgetting the part that says “whatever the Father does he does“?
That means that when the scriptures says all things came into being by him and nothing came into being without him (Jesus) then he was there doing what the Father was doing and that is creating all things.
Now how do you reconcile that with YHVH “alone” and “By himself” created all things?
Seriously t8 you should start believing in the Jesus of the Bible instead of a little Jesus who is no longer the servant Messiah but is exalted with “all authority and power” subject to him.
You should not reduce Jesus to your own image but raise him to the level that he is by seeing him as the visible image of God, because if your image of him is less than God then to you he is not the visible Image of God which can only mean that you do not know the Father, for apart from him, Jesus showing you the Father you cannot know him.
WJ
Ha ha ha. WJ what sort of logic is that? At least you are entertaining.Yes you did miss the point or you are not acknowledging the point. It is evident that you are brainwashed because you are not able to see the most simple of things sometimes. I am sure it is not a lack of intellect, rather that your mind is full of your understanding leaving no room for correction. A child could be taught this, but you are not very child-like.
You also forget that we are to be like Jesus and we will even look like him once we are fully perfected. We will look like him.
The pattern is still there isn't it.Jesus sits with God. We sit with Jesus. Jesus does what God wants. We should do what God wants but in Jesus name.
It is at least amusing to see the denials that come from a brainwashed mind. But for your own sake you need to change this. This is why you are also unable to grasp that the head of Christ is God, just as the head of man is Christ.
It is simply that all can sit with their head on his throne and rule and reign with them.
Question: If we will be like Jesus and he calls us brothers, then does that support Jesus being the son of God or God?
Answer: Son of God.Because if we are to be like God and God calls us brother, then we are too God.
But if he is the son, then we are sons, and we will be his brother.Just another clear indicator that Jesus is the son of God and not one member of a Trinity God.
Hopefully this will be well received.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2011,16:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,08:54) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,03:16) WAS HE A PUPPET ON A STRING THAT COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN?
Not a puppet because puppets are dead.But he definitely did nothing of his own accord.
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Hopefully Jesus answer is good enough for you. If not, then we can't help you until you actually believe the words of Jesus.
t8Are you forgetting the part that says “whatever the Father does he does“?
That means that when the scriptures says all things came into being by him and nothing came into being without him (Jesus) then he was there doing what the Father was doing and that is creating all things.
Now how do you reconcile that with YHVH “alone” and “By himself” created all things?
Seriously t8 you should start believing in the Jesus of the Bible instead of a little Jesus who is no longer the servant Messiah but is exalted with “all authority and power” subject to him.
You should not reduce Jesus to your own image but raise him to the level that he is by seeing him as the visible image of God, because if your image of him is less than God then to you he is not the visible Image of God which can only mean that you do not know the Father, for apart from him, Jesus showing you the Father you cannot know him.
WJ
Ha ha ha. WJ what sort of logic is that? At least you are entertaining.Yes you did miss the point or you are not acknowledging the point. It is evident that you are brainwashed because you are not able to see the most simple of things sometimes. I am sure it is not a lack of intellect, rather that your mind is full of your understanding leaving no room for correction. A child could be taught this, but you are not very child-like.
You also forget that we are to be like Jesus and we will even look like him once we are fully perfected. We will look like him.
The pattern is still there isn't it.Jesus sits with God. We sit with Jesus. Jesus does what God wants. We should do what God wants but in Jesus name.
It is at least amusing to see the denials that come from a brainwashed mind. But for your own sake you need to change this. This is why you are also unable to grasp that the head of Christ is God, just as the head of man is Christ.
It is simply that all can sit with their head on his throne and rule and reign with them.
t8Is that all you have is insults? Ha Ha. Are you related to JA? That is a serious question, I have been meaning to ask.
Anyway, you still did not address the points but instead just write a bunch of insults.
I will try again.
“T8, according to the scriptures do you believe that God “alone”, “by himself”, with “none other” created all things?
Remember Jesus words are…”whatever the Father does he does“!
Why are you making the comparison of Jesus who is the “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD” to us as if we will ever be like Jesus in every way?
Can you say “whatever I see the Father do I do”? Its amazing how you anti Jesus is God people close your eyes to these truths. Your attitude seems to be making us equal to Jesus in some way rather than exalting him far above us by giving him the same honour as to the Father. It seems the mission of the anti-trins is to make Jesus decrease rather than like the Baptist to say he must increase and I must decrease. It must be pride or maybe it is just the darkness and blindness of the heart that keeps men from honouring Jesus like the Father rather than just giving him the honour of an anointed man or servant Messiah of which he is no longer servant. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and follow him. But so many do not listen to his words but would rather hold on to their man made doctrines and therefore fulfilling Jesus own words when he called them whited sepluchres who are full of dead mens bones.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2011,16:46) Question: If we will be like Jesus and he calls us brothers, then does that support Jesus being the son of God or God?
Answer: Son of God.Because if we are to be like God and God calls us brother, then we are too God.
But if he is the son, then we are sons, and we will be his brother.Just another clear indicator that Jesus is the son of God and not one member of a Trinity God.
Hopefully this will be well received.
t8Being a brother to Jesus is linked to his humanity because he came in the flesh.
So the question is back to you.
“Before Jesus came in the flesh was he a brother to humanity?“
In the Kingdom of God there are no brothers or sisters are there t8?
Is there gender in heaven, or will we be like the Angels?
So in other words Jesus becoming a brother to humanity has no bearing on him being the Son of God since the Son of God does not have to be human right?
Burn that straw man down. t8 I am amazed at this last lame attempt you made, it seems below you.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,03:19)
Look again Mike, all of the scriptures prophesying of the “Throne of David” is the “Throne of God”.
Are you serious? Please show me ONE scripture that implies the throne of a HUMAN king is the throne of God. (Listen Keith, ONE scripture. If you think there are more than one, then we will get to them one at a time. I don't want one of your famous posts filled with 20 red scriptures, none of which really say what you claim they do. Because then I have to tear down YOUR understanding of each of them in one post. And then that leaves you too much “wiggle room” in the midst of the chaos. So post only ONE scripture at first that you think says the throne of the human being David is actually God's throne.)Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,03:19)
That is like saying can a priest of a human be human. When are you going to get it Mike?
Keith, can you enlighten us as to the function of a priest? Let's take Aaron, for example. Who did Aaron offer sacrifices to? Whose instructions did Aaron pass on to his congregation? Which two parties did Aaron mediate between?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06) Jesus either IS the BEING OF GOD, or he is NOT. And he can't possibly be the BEING OF GOD if he is the SON of the BEING OF GOD. He can't be the BEING OF GOD if the BEING OF GOD is both OUR God and HIS God. He can't be the BEING OF GOD if he sits at the right hand OF the BEING OF GOD. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,03:19)
If he is everything that being is then he is that being.
But he's not everything that Being is, Keith. Jesus is not the Father, is he? Jesus does not GRANT the Father to sit in HIS throne, does he? Jesus has not placed the Father's enemies as a footstool for Him, has he? Jesus did not GIVE the Father all power and authority, did he? Jesus never SENT the Father anywhere for any reason, did he? The Father didn't suffer to attain perfection in the eyes of Jesus, did He? The Father was not found WORTHY to take a scroll from the hand of Jesus, was He?You see, Keith? So many differences, so little time. So please try to answer my above question again. This time you have the knowledge that Jesus is NOT “everything the Being of God the Father is”, so I will expect a different answer.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2011,21:06)
Keith, do you or do you not believe that Jesus is the Son of the SINGULAR BEING we know as “God”?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,03:19)
Yes Jesus is the Son of the Father
Keith, I just counted 41 scriptures that call Jesus the “Son of God”. NOT the “Son of the Father”, but the “Son of GOD”. And that's not even counting the one that says he is the “Son of THE Living God”, or the ones that refer to him as “God's Son” or “His Son”.In light of these 41+ scriptures, and the 6900+ times that God is referred to by a SINGULAR pronoun such as “He” and “Him”, could you answer my question with a simple YES or NO?
According to MANY scriptures, is Jesus the Son of the SINGULAR BEING called “God”? Yes or No?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,03:19)
you can’t know the Father without Jesus
Think it out, Keith. NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD, but the only begotten god has made Him known. Not even Stephen was able to see God Himself as he was dying. He could only see the GLORY of God…………and Jesus at the right hand of that One. As in TWO separate beings, Keith. One, Stephen WAS ABLE to see, the other, he wasn't. Hmmmmm……….Also consider this logic, which is seemingly lost on you: We can only get to GOD…………..through Jesus. What does that tell you? Why do you think we can no longer DIRECTLY approach God Himself, yet we CAN approach Him if we go THROUGH Jesus? (Are bells going off in your head yet?)
If Jesus IS God, then why CAN we approach him, but not GOD HIMSELF? Do you see the contradiction here? If Jesus is God, and we can approach him, then we have already directly approached God. And if we CAN already approach God directly, then what is meant by having to go THROUGH Jesus to GET TO GOD? Wouldn't we already be to God when we reached Jesus?
So many illogical claims, so little time.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,04:18) Now we see that a right hand man can be equal to or even greater to the one he is at the right hand of.
Hi Keith,“Right hand man” ONLY fits the third use of “right hand” that I posted for you.
You live in America, right? Tell me Keith, growing up and all through your life, what has the term “right hand man” meant to you? Would you call Number One in Star Trek Captain Piccard's “right hand man”?
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
How many “postitions” are mentioned or inferred above? Three, right? The right, the left, and the middle.
Keith, can the sons of Zebedee just TELL Jesus where they will sit relative to him? Or do they go as far as bowing down before him to REQUEST these positions? Do we find out not only that these positions are traditionally GRANTED by one in power (the MIDDLE one), but that it is someone even more powerful than Jesus who will GRANT them?
But how did Jesus come to sit at the right hand of YHVH? Did Jesus just take it upon himself to sit there?
Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. YHVH says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”Ahhhhh……………so the God OF Jesus is the One who GAVE Jesus this postition, right?
Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
Here we see that Jesus was EXALTED by his God to the prestigious position of sitting at the right hand OF his God. Oh, and this is another example where Jesus is a PRINCE in relation to his God. He might be King to everything else in existence, but to his God he is “Prince”.Keith, how long must I endure this pretending? Do you see from the above that Jesus was EXALTED TO the right hand of his God? Does it sound like equality when one is EXALTED BY the other? Can't you understand that just as the right and left of Jesus is a position that is GRANTED by the One in power, so has the postion of YHVH's right hand been GRANTED to Jesus by the One in power who EXALTED him to that position?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011,09:23) Is there gender in heaven, or will we be like the Angels?
Hmmmm……………I wonder how the non-gendered angels found human WOMEN attractive and mated with them to produce the Nephilim?
Keith, if I may expand on t8's point:
Why is it that our hope is to become BROTHERS of Jesus, but SONS of God?
mike
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