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Quote (thankful @ Feb. 02 2011,02:48) hello simplyforgiven, thank you for your reply. your last point about the 144,000 being irrelevant, maybe it is because you cannot reconcile how there can be 144,000 perfect human who will also be God the father?
jesus was subject to sin and bodily corruption just like all humans; he was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN! however…he OVERCAME SIN and died for it…therefore he was made perfect (Romans 1:4) by the resurrection to everlasting life and in an incorruptible body by the raising up from the death in the body.
even leading a perfect life does not make him perfect because he was flesh. even adam was not perfect… but God aimed to make him perfect, just as jesus did, and to become a spiritual son, not just a fleshly son.
the spiritual son is not subject to sin: adam was flesh, and he did sin.
jesus was subject to sin as flesh, but when he became the begotten, the spiritual son, he was no longer subject to sin.
so, simply forgiven,. scriptures says we are to become like jesus. he showed us the way to the father. and 144,000 will become like jesus.
Quote hello simplyforgiven, thank you for your reply. your last point about the 144,000 being irrelevant, maybe it is because you cannot reconcile how there can be 144,000 perfect human who will also be God the father?
If its irrevelant than why did you mention it in the first place? You didnt refute what i stated. The only point i was making is that dont make a doctrine about things that havent happen yet and are beyond our understanding.
Jesus asks all of us in a since to be perfect as the scripture i wrote said. soooooo what the deal?Quote jesus was subject to sin and bodily corruption just like all humans; he was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN! however…he OVERCAME SIN and died for it…therefore he was made perfect (Romans 1:4) by the resurrection to everlasting life and in an incorruptible body by the raising up from the death in the body.
He was already a perfect man. the SECOND adam. Being made in the likeness of man doesnt mean you are EXACTLY like a Man. He overcame death also by the ressurection.
Quote even leading a perfect life does not make him perfect because he was flesh. even adam was not perfect… but God aimed to make him perfect, just as jesus did, and to become a spiritual son, not just a fleshly son.
And where does it say thing? do you have any scriptures to back up these claims your stating? Adam was PERFECT until he sinned. thats why Jesus is called the SECOND ADAM.Quote the spiritual son is not subject to sin: adam was flesh, and he did sin.
What? How was Adam NOT spiritual when he WALKED with God in the garden of Eden and stood in his very presence.
The bible claims that Gods eyes are to holy to look upon sin, so how is it that Adam had a physical relationship with God.
Adam was subject to the fallen state because he sinned.
God did not create Adam with Sin or with the carnality of a sinful flesh.
Flesh is enmity between God and Man.
What your saying makes no sense.
If your going to make claims quote evidence and biblical scripture because your not making any sense.Quote jesus was subject to sin as flesh, but when he became the begotten, the spiritual son, he was no longer subject to sin.
What are you talking about?
did you know that Jesus created the World? (Collosians 1)
Thruogh him life is sustained? that scriptures testify of him?Look maybe im misunderstanding you. Who exactly do you believe that Jesus Christ is? Is he God?
Do you believe he Pre-existed?Quote so, simply forgiven,. scriptures says we are to become like jesus. he showed us the way to the father. and 144,000 will become like jesus.
Ummmm where are the scriptures you are referring too?
you havent proven your case.
The bible doesnt say that 144000 will be like Jesus, thats just your speculation. (not that i disagree with you)
The bible says they will have the seal of God.
Romans 8:29 states that we will be in his image.Stick to scripture not speculations.
Why dont you post scripture and we will discuss exactly what you believe.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,10:23) Now can you answer a question for me? In what sense is Jesus not God since Jesus contains all authority and power and the attributes and characteristics of God?
i notice worshippingjesus that you said 'In ESSENCE God'. what do you mean by 'in essence' rather than 'in actuallity'?jesus isn't God…only in essence… having the power and authority of God but not actually God himself.
just as joseph was 'in essence' pharoah: having the power and authority of pharoah but never actually being pharoah himself ('everything is yours, …excepting my throne')he, the son, jesus, is therefore seated at Gods right hand.
Mike,
Quote You run away from my POINTS all the time, D. You post irrelevant imaginations that have nothing to do with the issues at hand.
LIKE WHEN?
??? when have i ever?
lol this is ridiculous.Quote Here, I'll give you an example of what it's like to discuss with you. (Except I'll spell the words correctly and use correct punctuation and such……..like an adult.)
I wonder, 4 other people have repeated the same things that i have told you, that you “divert from points” and you “skirting the actual issues” yet you “claim” (the only one) that we are the ones diverting? really?
maybe you should examine your self a bit closer.
We have been telling you for the longest time that you play these games and divert and have fallacies that you choose to ignore.
I wish i can do a psychological study on you and figure out if your just a lunatic who is clearly blind and cannot see past the end of his nose. Or maybe your age? or maybe your a genuis who does this in purpose, to aggravate everyone and hide your faults in logic.Good you should set an example for once in this forum.
Because of course in my age im just trying so hard not to abbrievate every other word because my generation hass the whole abbreivating way of communicating.Quote He knows the Greek form of “Spirit OF God” means the same thing as the English form of “Spirit OF God”, yet this was his “defense”.
ohh so basically he is being like you?
like when we told you that Elohim CAN mean GOD depending on context! and you still “REFUSE to believe” that elohim can mean God though all the evidence is presented in front of you?Ed J is not being like me, he is learning and adapting to be like you!
Quote Then I was saying I thought the “US” in Gen 1:26 referred to Jesus and God. He suggested it could refer to “all of us”. I told him that all things are not said to be created through “all of us”. He replied that we are the “body of Christ”, as if scripture ever implied that we were all created THROUGH OURSELVES. And it reminded me of how YOU discuss things.
Ed J and I have argued about this over the Phone and i completely disagree with him. He believes that we all pre-existed. You see mike, to understand peoples arguements and the strange things they say, first you have to find out what they believe. Im not surprised he said this.than again, how in the heck does that remind you of me?
howwww your stating in what way?
Because my arguements have always had warrants and things backing me up homeboy.Quote For instance, I asked you two or three times to list a SPECIFIC point that Francis made that I didn't address from his last post. And STILL you cannot do that one simple thing.
AND HOW did I not? I posted POINTS that he made.Quote Instead, you listed half of his whole post. And I can't for the life of me find a POINT he made,
AND right there!! right THere is your exact problem.
Its because you DONT consider it a point is why you are reacting that way.
In fact those are points because they are refuting comments that you have made, yet you have lacked to respond to them.
So just beacuse “you dont believe” they are points, doesnt change the fact that they are points, and very good poitns that correct your fallacies.Quote (as in something that proves Heb 1:8 is calling Jesus God) in all those words. I find him calling me “disengenuous” and ranting about how it's some kind of a sham for me to not just accept everything I read as if it is God's truth. But I don't see a POINT that needs addressing. And if you still DO see a SPECIFIC point that is related to the SCRIPTURES we are discussing, PLEASE POINT IT OUT TO ME SPECIFICALLY. And like I've said three times now: If not, then pipe down about it.
Of course i will not and “REFUSE” to pipe down.
Your discussion involves many things, and if you have stated many things and points that have nothing to do with Hebs nor the debate yet Francis still responded.
All these point should be addressed because they prove your false logic within the debate.Quote You see, D. This is lunacy as far as I'm concerned. Remember the time you accused me of lying and we had to go back and forth through, like 5 posts each before you realized I really DIDN'T say what you thought I did? Remember? It was about the children's angels seeing the face of God each day? (That's not really what the accusation was about, but maybe that part will jog your memory.) Oh! Now I remember. You thought I said we HAD debated something that we hadn't. But upon further evaluation, you realized that's NOT what I said at all. Remember?
And unlike you, I correceted myself so whatttt????
I humbly apologized and made a mistake and i REGONIZED IT.
Maybe you should follow the same example.Quote Good. Because this is the kind of your nonsense I just don't have time for. You are good at posting your understanding, but not so much at actually SCRIPTURALLY defending anything you say or acknowledging the scriptures I post for you. And you are very angry and belittling towards me lately, so there's another reason to avoid you.
Dude, lol you make alot of nonesense post and i still respond to every bit.
WHEN DO I NOT SCRIPTURALY DEFEND MYSELF? i go into the greek and hebrew and into alot of so many scriptures that you simply CHOOSE not to believe the facts.
the joke is on you man.
I go into every single scripture with you and you still refuse the logic behind every scripture i provide.So just because you “dont believe so” doesnt prove anything, because the facts are that i have always proven m
y cases with enough evidences.And Yes i have been very angry! why? because i waste like 4 hours of my life writing post that dont even get responded too. thats why.
Quote And he wants to divert the discussion from the ISSUES AT HAND by posting all these other supposed “Jesus is God proof texts”. And although I've already answered many of them many times, I will do so again……………AFTER we've ended the discussion about the above mentioned scriptures.
and HOW is he diverting?Quote D, I asked you point blank if God Almighty had a God. Your answer is “NO”. And that's what you should have HONESTLY posted the first of the three times I had to ask it. THEN I could have said, “Well, Jesus does!”. And THEN you could have started with your illogical reasoning about how God Almighty calls himself “MY God” and all that. But FIRST, there was a simple question. And instead of just answering the simple question, you started with this, that, and the other right from the jump. That's frustrating for me. Why? Because it tells me that you are more worried about where I'm going WITH that question than you are about just answering honestly in the first place
Dude how can i answer that Question when you cant even agree what “ELOHIM” means?
cannot you not see how ILLOGICAL that can be?
I have no idea what you mean by “God” anymore.
and i asked you for clarification and I asked you again and again.
and than i answer in my own terms. That God which includes Jesus does not have a God.Sooooo what the deal homeboy?
and i did answer it 100 times already, but you continud to ignore what i said.
So why didnt u just respond to what i said and humble yourself to UNDERSTAND why im stating what im stating.dude get a grip and start being honest with yourself for your own good not ours.
Quote (thankful @ Feb. 02 2011,03:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,10:23) Now can you answer a question for me? In what sense is Jesus not God since Jesus contains all authority and power and the attributes and characteristics of God?
i notice worshippingjesus that you said 'In ESSENCE God'. what do you mean by 'in essence' rather than 'in actuallity'?jesus isn't God…only in essence… having the power and authority of God but not actually God himself.
just as joseph was 'in essence' pharoah: having the power and authority of pharoah but never actually being pharoah himself ('everything is yours, …excepting my throne')he, the son, jesus, is therefore seated at Gods right hand.
So was the Tabernacle God or not?Quote (thankful @ Feb. 02 2011,02:56) simplyforgiven, to add, to be like the father, perfect, is not meaning you ARE the father. though you are like him.
Of course not.
But its IMPOSSIBLE to be like the father WITHOUT Jesus!
Jesus is like the Tabernacle of Mankind.
He is “EMMANUEL” “GOD WITH US”Quote (thankful @ Feb. 01 2011,17:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,10:23) Now can you answer a question for me? In what sense is Jesus not God since Jesus contains all authority and power and the attributes and characteristics of God?
i notice worshippingjesus that you said 'In ESSENCE God'. what do you mean by 'in essence' rather than 'in actuallity'?jesus isn't God…only in essence… having the power and authority of God but not actually God himself.
just as joseph was 'in essence' pharoah: having the power and authority of pharoah but never actually being pharoah himself ('everything is yours, …excepting my throne')he, the son, jesus, is therefore seated at Gods right hand.
ThankfulWhat are you talking about. I never said that “Jesus is in essence God”. Those are your words.
Do you understand what “essence” is?
Essence
the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, which determines its character:
conflict is the essence of drama (Compact Oxford English Dictionary)In other words Jesus is the exact representation of his intrinsic nature.
*And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and *upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, Heb 1:3
WJ
hi all. i dont have much time to go through every point right now,
but, all of your points are still not telling me that jesus who was here on earth is GOD the FATHER Almighty. it doesnt seem anything like the SON of God who was jesus, who is in scripture. a SON is a son, it just doesnt make sense. a son on earth with us (such as my own son) is not the father who he came from, but he is the son.
jesus is the son, from the father, he does all he sees his father do. “the son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the father do, for whatever he does, the son also does in like manner”
he spoke the words his father gave him to speak…..”for i did not speak of my own accord but the father who sent me”………..”i speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”it doesnt mean he IS the father.
God bless.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
So you say, but you haven’t proved that Jesus is not “God” and that he is not “Almighty” have you?
Well, “God Almighty” basically means the same thing as “The God of gods”, right? It means there is only ONE who is above all others, no matter how powerful the others are. And Jesus is never referred to as “God Almighty” nor “the God of gods”, is he? Those titles belong to HIS God, YHVH.
But just wait, there will be much more proof coming as the debate with Francis moves along.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
Sure you have, for you have rejected pretty much all of the cream of Hebrew and Greek scholarship which disagrees with your “Arian” views.
“Rejecting” is not the same as “ignoring”, Keith. I've studied it. I've considered what they were saying. I've researched into it to see if what they are saying is ACTUALLY supported by the scriptures. And upon finding out it is NOT, I rejected it. So don't say I've “ignored it” simply because I've “rejected it”. There's a big difference in those two words.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
Yes of course “Mikes” common sense and “Mikes” straight track to God above all others who could not possibly be wrong and the millions be right. Ha Ha.
Have you forgotten I'm not alone? Have you forgotten that millions also believe like me?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
You haven’t shown us how the term “Son of God” is antithetical to the word “God”.
Just like the term “Son of Man” is not antithetical too man.
I started a thread to address this with you before, Keith. You ignored it. “Man” is a species, Keith. Being the “Son of Man” means that Jesus was part of our SPECIES. “God” in this context is an INDIVIDUAL BEING. So being “Son of (the individual being) God” means he cannot BE that individual being that he is the son of. Cain was the son of adam (man), so he COULD be adam as much as his father. But Cain was also the son of Adam (the person), and so he could NOT be Adam, though he COULD be adam.The question is: Do YOU think “God” in this context refers to a SPECIES or a PERSON?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
Please show us again how the Scriptures are “ABUNDANTLY CLEAR” that Jesus is not “God” and how he is not “Almighty”?
Patience Keith. They are all coming soon enough. For now though, we are dealing with the fact that since Rev 3:12 and Heb 1:8 both say that Jesus HAS A GOD OF HIS OWN, it's very unlikely that he is “THE God Almighty” who is the “God of gods”. You see? Because if Jesus is a god, yet has a God, then it's most likely and makes the most sense that the God OF Jesus is that aforementioned “God Almighty” or “God of gods”, and that Jesus is one of the gods He is the God OF.And I wanted to answer your points here, Keith. But Francis and I are still on Micah 5:4/Rev 3:12/Psalm 45:6/Hebrews 1:8-9 for now. And you are perpetually striving to steer the debate in other directions because you think the more “Jesus is God” texts you can throw out all at once, the better your case will be. But trust me, it only gets worse for you from here on out.
Right now, do you have something that:
A. Makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that “Your throne, O God” even IS the actual translation of 45:6 and 1:8?
B. Makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that this particular mention of “elohim” in 45:6 and 1:8 absolutely refers to “God Almighty”?Because those are the things being discussed in the debate. And I don't want to stray too far from those things until we're all convinced that, no matter how bad some of us WANT these scriptures to be calling Jesus “God Almighty”, there really is no proof that they do, nor any scriptural reason to even THINK they do.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
No you don’t you teach that God had a god who was beside him and with him created all things. That is not what the scriptures teach is it Mike? Didn’t he say God alone, by himself created all things?
What the scriptures ACTUALLY teach is that our ONE TRUE GOD created everything ALONE……………but He chose to do that THROUGH His only begotten Son, Jesus. I don't know the exact hows and whys of God saying “ALONE”, but “THROUGH” Jesus, nor do you. But what we DO know is that Paul made it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR in 1 Cor 8:6 that all things came FROM God, but they came THROUGH Jesus.Keith, it is YOU and Francis and SF that want to insist that “elohim” MEANS “God”. And it is YOUR insistence about this misunderstanding that makes the Bible have MANY “Gods”. So here you go, Keith. Listen VERY carefully:
Is there more than one “elohim” in scripture? Yes? Okay, then according to YOU and YOUR “definition”, there is more than one “God” in scripture. But if you say that only CERTAIN mentions of “elohim” in the scriptures really MEAN “God”, then where is your proof that the mentions that refer to Jesus MEAN “God”? Why can't THOSE MENTIONS simply mean “vice-regent OF God” like many of the other ones do?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
This is the definition of Polytheism…The worship of or belief in more than one god – American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
So do you believe in other gods or not?
It is YOUR teaching that Jesus IS “God” and that we should WORSHIP him, and THAT is polytheism, Keith. You are the one teaching THREE INDIVIDUAL “GODS”, but insanely creating some being (in whose image WE are made) that is three individual persons within one being – although none of US are a being like that.
I, on the other hand teach of ONE God, wh
ose Son is the second most powerful being in existence, and therefore an ELOHIM in his own right, but not THE ELOHIM who begot him.(Keith, I am sending a quote of this part of my post to t8, and asking him to ask you to stop referring to me as a “polytheist”. I know it is nothing but a “fallback diversion” many trinitarians use when they can't refute the points someone is making, but for some reason, I've grown weary of it. And I've asked you nicely – more than once – to stop. You apparently refuse to do so, which is the same as you saying that you will continue to make FALSE ACCUSATIONS against me.)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
No I don’t know you are not a Polytheist, and you haven’t proven it by your teaching and the definition of a Polytheist.So report me but how do you see my claim as being worthy of being reported since I only use your teachings and the definition of Polytheism, yet you can make the following claim about my beliefs…
Consider it done. By the way Keith, you KNOW that you and I have gone toe to toe about WORSHIPPING Jesus. You KNOW that there is ONLY ONE who is worthy of our worship, as far as I'm concerned. And you KNOW that your OWN definintion you just posted mentions the WORSHIP of more than one God. Yet you continue to call me a polytheist?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,18:08) But as we now well know, Satan was pleasantly surprised by the results. He now has gotten millions upon millions to worship someone OTHER THAN YHVH as God Almighty. And in doing this, they also break DIRECT commands from God. Yep, old Satan is “smiling all the way to the bank” on this scam. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 02 2011,03:44)
Which is worse Mike? You're not even going to defend the trinitarians except to say “they're not as bad as atheists”? (The part above that I made “brown” is being sent to t8. I await his “ruling” on the matter.)
And I don't care how much of this post you respond to, Keith. We are circling the same exact issues we've circled many times before. If you DO respond, I will “cherry pick” only ONE issue (if any) to respond back to. I'm really only killing time with you waiting for Francis to respond in the debate. But I am once again being slowly lead down the “path of many unsupported claims”.
So we can go toe to toe until the bitter end on just ONE of those many claims, or just wait for Francis.So I leave it up to you: Respond with your SINGLE strongest “Jesus is God” point you think you've just made, or I'll pick the SINGLE point I want to refute out of your many.
mike
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 02 2011,05:05) Hi Mike: My understanding is that the Holy Spirit is God as manifest by the life that He lives. Just as my spirit is the person that I am as manifest by the life that I live.
The Holy Spirit would not exist apart from the soul of God just as my spirit would also not exist apart from my soul.
You may have heard also about blaphemy against the Holy Ghost. I don't want to go there.
I know that my Father dwells within me by His Spirit, and He is not some “Third Person” of some Tri-une God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I hope you are well.
We know that when our body dies, our spirit goes back to God, who gave it in the first place, right?
Yet Jesus says to fear the One who not only can kill the body, but can afterwards throw the soul into Gehenna.
So, if the body is dead, which means the spirit went back to God, yet God can still throw the (spiritless ?) soul into Gehenna, then maybe your spirit CAN exist apart from your soul. But I don't know. This is all confusing for me so far. I'm still on milk.
I'll leave you to your understanding, since I can't refute it. But more importantly, I'll leave you to fight the good fight against Keith and his misunderstanding about a triune God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thankful @ Feb. 02 2011,08:56) simplyforgiven, to add, to be like the father, perfect, is not meaning you ARE the father. though you are like him.
Hi thankful,I agree. I've been discussing with Keith about how being compared TO someone is a pretty good sign you AREN'T that “someone”.
If Jesus is as good AS God, then he's not God, but someone other than God who is as good AS God.
Even if scripture specifically said, “Jesus is EXACTLY the SAME as God in every single way”, it would STILL be saying that Jesus cannot possibly BE the same “God” he is being compared TO.
So really, every scripture the trinitarians point out that say Jesus is LIKE God is another scripture that makes it clear that Jesus ISN'T God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,09:46) Dude how can i answer that Question when you cant even agree what “ELOHIM” means?
cannot you not see how ILLOGICAL that can be?
Hi D,Maybe I was a bit harsh in my last post. I apologize for that. But your quote above is kind of what I'm talking about.
You are saying that you can't answer the question, “Does God Almighty have a God?” because I don't agree that “elohim” actually MEANS “God”? And you say that I'M being “illogical”?
I never argued that “God” doesn't mean “God”, did I? So my question has NOTHING to do with the original Hebrew meaning of “elohim”. It has to do with the English word “God”.
You said you are mad about “wasting 4 hours” making a post. I'm sorry about that. So, in the future, let's you and I keep our posts to each other SHORT AND TO THE POINT, okay?
For example: D, have any of your points that I DIDN'T address make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that:
A. “Your throne, O God” is even the correct translation of Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8?
B. The “elohim” mentioned absolutely must be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thankful @ Feb. 02 2011,11:14) but, all of your points are still not telling me that jesus who was here on earth is GOD the FATHER Almighty. it doesnt seem anything like the SON of God who was jesus, who is in scripture. a SON is a son, it just doesnt make sense. a son on earth with us (such as my own son) is not the father who he came from, but he is the son.
Hi Shinara? Is that right? Is that your name?I don't know too much about anything you believe yet, but you are making some very good common sense points in this thread. Please continue.
God obviously knows how we understand a father/son relationship. HE knows that WE know a son proceeds FROM his father and is never the same being as his father. After all, we are all made in His image, and there is no human son who is the same being as HIS father.
If the Father and Son are the same being, then God really picked some confusing words in “father” and “son” to describe the relationship between two equal members of the “Godhead”.
Not to even mention all the different ways that Jesus taught his inferiority to his Father and God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thankful @ Feb. 02 2011,05:14) hi all. i dont have much time to go through every point right now, but, all of your points are still not telling me that jesus who was here on earth is GOD the FATHER Almighty. it doesnt seem anything like the SON of God who was jesus, who is in scripture. a SON is a son, it just doesnt make sense. a son on earth with us (such as my own son) is not the father who he came from, but he is the son.
jesus is the son, from the father, he does all he sees his father do. “the son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the father do, for whatever he does, the son also does in like manner”
he spoke the words his father gave him to speak…..”for i did not speak of my own accord but the father who sent me”………..”i speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”it doesnt mean he IS the father.
God bless.
But all your points are not proving that Jesus is not God.How is God like a human father?
How are you comparing God Almighty to a human son and son relationship?Check this out, if we all are sons of God than what was the big deal with the Jews that were trying to kill him for blasphemy just beacuse he called himself the son of God?
do you know what Emmanuel means? “God with us”
A Son does not do EXACTLY what the father does because a human son is another person with a seperate will.
Look if you dont have the time to discuss scripture than whats the point of posting?
and seriously if your just going to ignore points that we are making and just say “all of your points are still not telling me that Jesus is God the Father” without providing evidence and scriptures to REFUTE agaisnt what we are claiming than why bother?You say God is the Father?
Was GOD always the FATHER since Eternity?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:42) How is God like a human father?
Hi Dennison,He engenders “Spirit” Sons.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2011,07:15) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,09:46) Dude how can i answer that Question when you cant even agree what “ELOHIM” means?
cannot you not see how ILLOGICAL that can be?
Hi D,Maybe I was a bit harsh in my last post. I apologize for that. But your quote above is kind of what I'm talking about.
You are saying that you can't answer the question, “Does God Almighty have a God?” because I don't agree that “elohim” actually MEANS “God”? And you say that I'M being “illogical”?
I never argued that “God” doesn't mean “God”, did I? So my question has NOTHING to do with the original Hebrew meaning of “elohim”. It has to do with the English word “God”.
You said you are mad about “wasting 4 hours” making a post. I'm sorry about that. So, in the future, let's you and I keep our posts to each other SHORT AND TO THE POINT, okay?
For example: D, have any of your points that I DIDN'T address make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that:
A. “Your throne, O God” is even the correct translation of Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8?
B. The “elohim” mentioned absolutely must be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mikeQuote Hi D, Maybe I was a bit harsh in my last post. I apologize for that. But your quote above is kind of what I'm talking about.
You are saying that you can't answer the question, “Does God Almighty have a God?” because I don't agree that “elohim” actually MEANS “God”? And you say that I'M being “illogical”?
Actually you misunderstood what im stating. Because we cannot agree in what “elohim” means, causses me to DOUBT everything you state and question it.
For example we obviously do not agree about what GOD means.
You believe God is only the Father, I believe God includes Jesus.
So when i say God, and you say God, its not the same thing obvisouly.
So for you to state such a question would need clarification.Its not becuase you DONT AGREE, its becuase our terminology is not the same.
If say Jesus and you say Jesus, we are obviosuly talking about two different Jesus.Do you understand this?
I asked you before, “What do believe God means”
And the father?
and the Son?and you gave me a humanistic defintions and i asked you to clarify this biblically speaking.
Quote I never argued that “God” doesn't mean “God”, did I? So my question has NOTHING to do with the original Hebrew meaning of “elohim”. It has to do with the English word “God”.
Yes but our beliefs about who God IS different. Im using ELOHIM as an example to show you how different we are.If we cant agree what elohim means, how are you so sure that we agree about who and what God means?
Quote You said you are mad about “wasting 4 hours” making a post. I'm sorry about that. So, in the future, let's you and I keep our posts to each other SHORT AND TO THE POINT, okay?
My whole post were only responses to the points you have made.
and i went point by point by point.
again, why limit me?
I only will match in what you do.
the longer you post, the longer i post.
the shorter you post, the shorter my reply.Quote For example: D, have any of your points that I DIDN'T address make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that: A. “Your throne, O God” is even the correct translation of Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8?
B. The “elohim” mentioned absolutely must be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mike
Yes many.
Should i post them again?
I used Hebrews 1:1 as a reference to mean that Elohim means God as a supreme being.
and I used several examples in how elohim could mean “Supreme being/god” or in reference to God almighty.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2011,09:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:42) How is God like a human father?
Hi Dennison,He engenders “Spirit” Sons.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Through Jesus.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:52) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2011,09:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:42) How is God like a human father?
Hi Dennison,He engenders “Spirit” Sons.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Through Jesus.
Hi Dennison,John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74) fall into the
ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much “fruit”=74.
It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
will not come unto you; if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2011,10:46) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:52) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2011,09:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:42) How is God like a human father?
Hi Dennison,He engenders “Spirit” Sons.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Through Jesus.
Hi Dennison,John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74) fall into the
ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much “fruit”=74.
It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
will not come unto you; if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
and?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,18:30) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2011,10:46) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:52) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 02 2011,09:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,15:42) How is God like a human father?
Hi Dennison,He engenders “Spirit” Sons.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Through Jesus.
Hi Dennison,John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74) fall into the
ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much “fruit”=74.
It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
will not come unto you; if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
and?
Hi Dennison,In case you didn't know, my goal is to agree with truth that others hold dear!
I was merely proving what you said in your last post, using the Scriptures.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 02 2011,18:42) Look if you dont have the time to discuss scripture than whats the point of posting?
and seriously if your just going to ignore points that we are making and just say “all of your points are still not telling me that Jesus is God the Father” without providing evidence and scriptures to REFUTE agaisnt what we are claiming than why bother?
excuse me? i have responsibilities. i have other things to take care of. so please dont tell me how i should be spending my time answering all of your points. and that i should be copying/pasting scriptures to prove every single thing i say.thank you.
if im wrong, im wrong. im only LEARNING.
simplyforgiven, i have debated people who can quote scripture so well that they know it off by heart. this includes ex christians who have turned to islam, ex christians who have turned agnostic or athiest. iv also heard of people teaching as pastors etc in churches, who have secretly turned away from all that they believe, though the audience dont know it because they keep on preaching, by habit, as they were taught!
i use scripture when it comes to mind as im writing, theres nothing wrong with this.
i get around to posts though not instantly and not all in one login or day.just like now, i have answered this but now i have to go, so i dont have the time, right now, to answer any other points or any other people.
not till later.
so, byebye for now.
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