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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:02) Mike you didn't address this, why not?
Hi Keith,I DID address it. I used “president” for my analogy.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,15:12) But you cross the line by asserting those things make Jesus the God he is the Son of, and that's just plain silliness.
Ok MikeThe problem with your theology is you want to confess the scriptures that say Jesus is God, but then say he is not God because he is not your God. Do you see how silly that is?
Mike if a Polytheist who believes in many gods says to his friend, “I believe in the “God of stupidity” and I bow down to him, and I give him my life, and I confess him as my Lord and my Savior, and I love him with all of my heart because he has done so much for me”!
His friend may say “Wow how do I get to know your God”? Then he says “Oh well, you see he is not “my God” he only has the title “God”. Then his friend would probably say “Now I know why you call him the “God of stupidity”.
DO YOU SEE THE LUNACY OF YOUR ARGUMENT? You say Jesus is “a god” who you bown down to and confess as your Lord and Savour but then say he is not your god! Then who is he “a god” too?
If the scriptures says there is “Only One True God” then that leaves no room for anything else but “false gods” that are not gods at all but as Paul says “so-called gods”.To say anything else is absurd!
You see Mike Jesus is not a god simply by title like all the other false gods because Jesus fulfills the Role of being God. Yet you do not admit that he is your God. How sad indeed.
Who is Jesus “The God” of Mike, since you have no problem saying satan is “The God of this world”?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,15:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:02) Mike you didn't address this, why not?
Hi Keith,I DID address it. I used “president” for my analogy.
mike
MikeAnd I hadn't gotten to it.
But simply put… If there is “Only One True President” in the USA then that means there are “no other True Presidents” in the USA right?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,06:59) Ok Mike, God is “a powerful ruler”. Now that means that there is “Only One True Powerful Ruler”.
If there is “ONLY ONE” then that means there are no others, right?
Now we're getting somewhere Keith.
Is God the ONLY one in scripture who is “A powerful ruler”? Absolutely not. So did Paul lie when he said there is but ONE “powerful ruler”? How about Jesus when he said that YHVH was the ONLY true “powerful ruler”? These are statements of emphasis Keith. They assure us that while there are many who are “powerful rulers”, there is only one who is the MOST POWERFUL RULER.
I find it funny that you so whole-heartedly argue about there being only ONE true God, but so easily dismiss the fact that both Jesus and Paul said that ONE true God is THE FATHER.
How can you get down to the nitty gritty about there being ONLY ONE powerful ruler, but neglect to understand that it is THE FATHER ONLY?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:21) Ok Mike The problem with your theology is you want to confess the scriptures that say Jesus is God, but then say he is not God because he is not your God. Do you see how silly that is?
The only problem is with your pretended misunderstanding of the word “god”, Keith.Remember the definition, Keith. “Powerful ruler”.
Is Jesus a powerful ruler? Yes.
Is Jesus MY powerful ruler? Of course.
Is Jesus the MOST powerful ruler? No.
Is the MOST powerful ruler also HIS powerful ruler? Yes.
Are we told to worship many powerful rulers? No.
Are we told to worship ONLY the MOST powerful ruler? Yes.
Does Jesus, although being a powerful ruler himself, say that YHVH is the only true powerful ruler? Yes.
Does that mean that Jesus is a “fake” powerful ruler? No.
Does it mean that Jesus is emphasizing that YHVH is the MOST, and therefore the only TRUE one, since without Him, there would be no other powerful rulers at all? Yes.
Is it another way of saying YHVH is the “Powerful Ruler of powerful rulers”? Yes.
Can it even be said that YHVH is the “Powerful Ruler OF powerful rulers” if there aren't any other powerful rulers at all? No.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,15:50) Now we're getting somewhere Keith. Is God the ONLY one in scripture who is “A powerful ruler”?
Wow MikeDo you see how you have to manipulate the words to support your theory?
You are getting nowhere, not we are getting nowwhere.
If the scriptures says “God is the ONLY TRUE POWERFUL RULER” (Which they do not), then that would mean that there are “NO OTHER TRUE Powerful rulers?
But you try to manipulate this by saying “Is God the ONLY one in scripture who is “A powerful ruler?”
The question should be without the manipulation “is God the ONLY ONE IN SCRIPTURE WHO IS THE TRUE Powerful ruler?”
The answer would be Yes, right?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:26) But simply put… If there is “Only One True President” in the USA then that means there are “no other True Presidents” in the USA right?
No Keith. It doesn't mean the president of Bank of America is “false” or “non-existent”. It just distinguishes Obama as the HIGHEST president in our country. Obama is the “President of presidents”.Let's apply your logic to Jesus. If Jesus and Paul both say that the FATHER is the only true God, then according to your logic, Jesus isn't even a real “powerful ruler” at all.
The only way around this problem caused by your logic is if Jesus was in fact the Father. Is that what you believe, Keith?
Is Jesus the Father, Keith? What do YOU say Dennison?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:01) The question should be without the manipulation “is God the ONLY ONE IN SCRIPTURE WHO IS THE TRUE Powerful ruler?” The answer would be Yes, right?
It is not I who manipulates, Keith. “God” means “powerful ruler”. Is YHVH the ONLY “powerful ruler” mentioned in scripture? Yes or No.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,16:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:21) Ok Mike The problem with your theology is you want to confess the scriptures that say Jesus is God, but then say he is not God because he is not your God. Do you see how silly that is?
The only problem is with your pretended misunderstanding of the word “god”, Keith.
It is not the definition of the word “god” (Theos) that is a problem. your problem is when you add the words “ONLY ONE TRUE” to it.Now you have to decide if you believe in “other true gods” or not.
But that creates a problem for you because the scriptures call Jesus God and he not only fulfills the role unlike the false gods but he is called my Lord and my God by his followers.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,16:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:26) But simply put… If there is “Only One True President” in the USA then that means there are “no other True Presidents” in the USA right?
No Keith. It doesn't mean the president of Bank of America is “false” or “non-existent”. It just distinguishes Obama as the HIGHEST president in our country. Obama is the “President of presidents”.
MikeThis is useless. You are just closing your eyes now.
If the President of BOA is “a true president in the USA“, then you cannot say President Obama “is the “Only True President in the USA“.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,16:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:01) The question should be without the manipulation “is God the ONLY ONE IN SCRIPTURE WHO IS THE TRUE Powerful ruler?” The answer would be Yes, right?
It is not I who manipulates, Keith. “God” means “powerful ruler”. Is YHVH the ONLY “powerful ruler” mentioned in scripture? Yes or No.mike
MikeThere you go, manipulate the words again…
The Bible says there is “Only One True God“.
If God means “Powerful Ruler” then the question would have to be “Is YHVH the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture?“
Yes or No Mike?
You manipulate the words by saying the quesion is “Is YHVH the ONLY “powerful ruler” mentioned in scripture?”
What happened to the words “ONLY ONE TRUE”?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:36) If God means “Powerful Ruler” then the question would have to be “Is YHVH the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture?” Yes or No Mike?
You manipulate the words by saying the quesion is “Is YHVH the ONLY “powerful ruler” mentioned in scripture?”
What happened to the words “ONLY ONE TRUE”?
Okay Keith,You asked for it!
First, it doesn't say “only one true God”. Paul says “ONE” and Jesus says “ONLY TRUE”. But I get your point. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:36) “Is YHVH the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture?”
The words on both occasions that we are referring to say “FATHER”, not YHVH.So Keith, I'll put your own question right back to you:
Is THE FATHER the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture? Yes or No, Keith.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,16:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:36) If God means “Powerful Ruler” then the question would have to be “Is YHVH the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture?” Yes or No Mike?
You manipulate the words by saying the quesion is “Is YHVH the ONLY “powerful ruler” mentioned in scripture?”
What happened to the words “ONLY ONE TRUE”?
Okay Keith,You asked for it!
First, it doesn't say “only one true God”. Paul says “ONE” and Jesus says “ONLY TRUE”. But I get your point. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:36) “Is YHVH the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture?”
The words on both occasions that we are referring to say “FATHER”, not YHVH.So Keith, I'll put your own question right back to you:
Is THE FATHER the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture? Yes or No, Keith.
peace and love,
mike
MikeThe answer is Yes!
Now what do you do with the scriptures that says Jesus is “God” (Powerful ruler)?
Is he a “True God” (True Powerful ruler)? Or is he a “false god” (false powerful ruler).
For if there is “Only One True God” (Only One true Powerful ruler) then Jesus is either that ruler or he is not God (powerful ruler) at all.
Now maybe you can answer my question that you did not answer…
If God means “Powerful Ruler” then the question would have to be “Is YHVH the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture?”
WJ
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 01 2011,04:24) I thought this tread was for debating between francis and Mike? Irene Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2011,01:12) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,06:51) WJ,
I dont see How This Gandalf got offended by either of our posts.but okkkkk… I guess just by the fact that we disagree made him emotional.
seriously, uncalled for.
Even with Mike, it took me awhile to finally lash out.
Hi D,I don't think it's the fact you guys disagree, but the fact you use silliness to do it. Think about it. If Satan is one of the so-called gods, and therefore not the only true God, then why isn't Jesus? YHVH is Jesus' God as well as Satan's, right?
On the other hand, if Satan is a real god (which he is) but still not the only true God, then why can't Jesus also be a real god without being the only true God?
Now you guys will go around and around in circles claiming all the things that Jesus is that Satan is not, and that's fine. But you cross the line by asserting those things make Jesus the God he is the Son of, and that's just plain silliness. Remember this one fact D: Whoever and whatever Satan is, he is not the God of gods, for that title belongs only to the one he refers to as “God”. And whoever and whatever Jesus is, he is not the God of gods, for that title belongs only to the one he refers to as “my God”.
Get it? If Satan has a God, then he is NOT God Almighty. If Jesus has a God, then he is NOT God Almighty. It's really just that simple, for God Almighty calls NO ONE “my God”. God Almighty doesn't have a God, D. Both Satan and Jesus do.
I'm glad Astaria called you on your silliness and “empty air” post. Substance, logic and scriptures are what it's all about, D.
You guys claim that because Jesus is the “exact representation” OF the invisible God, he must be that God. But you fail to see the illogic of your claim. God cannot be said to be “the exact representation” of God. That would be stupid. In order for one person to be a “representation” of ANOTHER, the first person cannot possibly BE that other.
This is the kind of sillieness I've been arguing against for over a year here. And I, for one, am glad to have someone else who is not afraid to call a spade a spade.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,Lol, Its crazy to believe what you believe, its nonesense.
No, Jesus is not God as well as Satan.
Jesus Is God, as Satan is not.Can you prove that otherwise.
How is Satan a god? can you prove that as well?Quote On the other hand, if Satan is a real god (which he is)
Than the debate ends right here. There is nothing left to say. For you to believe that Satan is a god amoung many is blasphemy.Quote Get it? If Satan has a God, then he is NOT God Almighty. If Jesus has a God, then he is NOT God Almighty. It's really just that simple, for God Almighty calls NO ONE “my God”. God Almighty doesn't have a God, D. Both Satan and Jesus do.
I think i will steal one of Francis Points. Its his human state that submitted and in humility said “my God” as it is nessary to do so. there is no other proof to say otherwise that his Divine nature is doing so.
1) Orthodox Christianity does not believe that Jesus… the Divine part of him… the Deity part of him… ever called God, “my God”. This is because Jesus is God. Instead it was Jesus' fully human body and human consciousness that said “my God”… not His divinity.…Francis.
But is Satan in this same State, is the FATHER in Satan? isnt the he the Father of liars and sinners?Quote I'm glad Astaria called you on your silliness and “empty air” post. Substance, logic and scriptures are what it's all about, D.
Actually its compelelty Logical.
Its like if i say, Im God. will you believe me just because i claimed so? Jesus made Cliams and he backed it up by his WORKS. He said if you dont believe me, believe my works for they are from the Father.
False Idols are cliamed as gods, but are they really gods?So the question arises, who and what is God? how can you define what God attributes are? and by what measure can you understand what is God and what is not God. Perfection is the clear marker
Perfection sets apart God from everything and everyone else.This is what i was referring to with Astaria, because he made a excellent point about defining what Is God. Which i agree, but unto what terms?
You cliam God is just a Title. Yet many verses state “God our father” so are you also stating that its impossible that the word “God” can be used as a name to identify someone?
Your only Contention thats left, is that God is a title, and its used to identify many individuals. Yet the bible that we read claims about one True God that is the only one who can be perfect and creator of all things.
Quote In order for one person to be a “representation” of ANOTHER, the first person cannot possibly BE that other.
Thats untrue, thats a limitation to God. IF God is invisible and everywhere at once, than how is it not possible that he cannot be also physical.ARe you saying that the God almighty cannot have physical state?
Mike
You skipped this which i thought WJ Made an excellent pointQuote You see Mike Jesus is not a god simply by title like all the other false gods because Jesus fulfills the Role of being God. Yet you do not admit that he is your God. How sad indeed. Who is Jesus “The God” of Mike, since you have no problem saying satan is “The God of this world“?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2011,02:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,07:26) But simply put… If there is “Only One True President” in the USA then that means there are “no other True Presidents” in the USA right?
No Keith. It doesn't mean the president of Bank of America is “false” or “non-existent”. It just distinguishes Obama as the HIGHEST president in our country. Obama is the “President of presidents”.Let's apply your logic to Jesus. If Jesus and Paul both say that the FATHER is the only true God, then according to your logic, Jesus isn't even a real “powerful ruler” at all.
The only way around this problem caused by your logic is if Jesus was in fact the Father. Is that what you believe, Keith?
Is Jesus the Father, Keith? What do YOU say Dennison?
mike
Mike Your analogy fails.
The Presidents Job is to be head and state over the whole country. Heck, a President is not even a good example, because in the USA we have a system called Check and Balances which can veto the President.Another issue is that the President cannot abuse nor take away your God given rights according to the declaration of independance and the Constitution.
The President doesnt even come close to be able to be compared to GOD the RULER of every single person's life, not just a socetiy but literally the ruler of every single persons personal life, spiritual and physical.
The analogy also fails because its not the Presidents Job to intervene with the “President of bank of america”
And the President of Bank of american also have implemented policies that limit his control and power.Obama is not the President of Presidents because there are other presidents that exist around the world that have power and a say so in our foreign policies.
God is above everything you stated, and is not limited in any way. He is Perfect.
To answer your Question:
Jesus claimed the Father is IN HIM, and the he is IN The Father.
Its retarded to even get into a discussion about this “belief”. This has nothing to do with scripture, and its your simply your IDEALS and analogies that have nothing to do with God.
Its an argument abuot the meaning of Titles, when being God is a Identity of Perfection of a Supreme Being.Nothing else to say, its defined right there in scritpure for you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2010,16:49) Is THE FATHER the Only One True Powerful Ruler mentioned in scripture? Yes or No, Keith. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,08:36) Mike The answer is Yes!
Keith, if the answer is YES, then what's left to discuss? If the FATHER is the One, then Jesus is NOT that One……………UNLESS…………….Jesus IS the Father.Is he Keith?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2011,09:08)
For if there is “Only One True God” (Only One true Powerful ruler) then Jesus is either that ruler or he is not God (powerful ruler) at all.
Sorry Keith, but that is assinine. You can use that same logic with Satan, David, Solomon, Nebuchadnezzar, etc. You're saying that if they aren't God Almighty Himself, then they weren't “powerful rulers” at all. Too silly, man.peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
Jesus Is God, as Satan is not.Can you prove that otherwise.
Absolutely D.John 17:3 NIV
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 20:17 NIV
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”The first scripture has Jesus PRAYING to the God he worships and calling Him the “ONLY true God”, as well as distinguishing himself as someone OTHER THAN that “only true God”.
The second scripture has Jesus teaching that our God is also his God. D, God Almighty does NOT have a God. He calls no one “my God”.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
How is Satan a god? can you prove that as well?
Sure.2 Corinthians 4:4 NIV
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.If the inspired writings of Paul call him a “god”, which means “powerful ruler”, then that's what he is.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
I think i will steal one of Francis Points. Its his human state that submitted and in humility said “my God” as it is nessary to do so. there is no other proof to say otherwise that his Divine nature is doing so.Francis: Orthodox Christianity does not believe that Jesus… the Divine part of him… the Deity part of him… ever called God, “my God”.
D, how do you answer the 6 times that Jesus calls the Father “my God” in Revelation………….AFTER HE WAS RAISED BACK TO HEAVEN and RESTORED TO HIS PREVIOUS RANK AND GLORY?I'm taking this debate with Francis SLOOOOOOW, so there are no misunderstandings as we go along. This is just one of the literally 1000 points I'm bursting to make to him. It's killing me to keep them all inside, but I've learned that for every ONE word I post, Francis posts about 50.
So I have to keep it on track, or I will be overwhelmed with a bunch of unscriptural words like “Orthodox Christianity”.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
Its like if i say, Im God. will you believe me just because i claimed so? Jesus made Cliams and he backed it up by his WORKS.
Great! So which scripture has Jesus claiming to be “God”? Which scripture shows Jesus to be anything but a servant of his God and Father?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
This is what i was referring to with Astaria, because he made a excellent point about defining what Is God. Which i agree, but unto what terms?
It seems that Keith and I have settled on “powerful ruler”. Is that definition okay with you in an effort to move forward?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
You cliam God is just a Title. Yet many verses state “God our father” so are you also stating that its impossible that the word “God” can be used as a name to identify someone?
I assert that there is no one in scripture who has the personal name “God”. “God the Father” is just an instance of someone using two different titles together in referrence to the One whose personal name is YHVH.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
Your only Contention thats left, is that God is a title, and its used to identify many individuals. Yet the bible that we read claims about one True God that is the only one who can be perfect and creator of all things.
Correct. See my “President” analogy if you have problems understanding that Paul and Jesus were emphasizing that YHVH is the MOST HIGH GOD. Both Paul and Jesus acknowledged the existence of others with the title of “god”.D, change it to “King”. David was a king, but for us, there is only ONE TRUE KING. And that one is even the King of the “King of kings”. It wouldn't mean that David, Solomon and Jesus are “fake” kings. It would only emphasize that YHVH is the MOST HIGH KING above all other kings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2011,01:12) In order for one person to be a “representation” of ANOTHER, the first person cannot possibly BE that other. Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 01 2011,10:38)
Thats untrue, thats a limitation to God. IF God is invisible and everywhere at once, than how is it not possible that he cannot be also physical.ARe you saying that the God almighty cannot have physical state?
What I'm saying is that someone or something cannot possibly be a “REPRESENTATION” of themselves. If someone is said to be a “REPRESENTATION” of someone, then that first “someone” cannot possibly BE that second “someone”.Can you show me from the history of the world where I'm wrong about this, D? Can you show me where one thing was said to be a “REPRESENTATION” of itself?
peace and love,
mike
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