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Thinker has made a point of stating that Elohiym is plural indicating the three persons of the Trinity. He has also said that the Messenger in Genesis 3 is Jesus. Here is a mechanical translation of Gen 3:1-6
1 and “Mosheh Plucked out” |had| {been} feeding {the} flocks {of} “Yitro His remainder”, his in-law, {the} administrator {of} “Mid'yan Quarrel”, and he drove the flocks (behind) the wilderness and he came to {the} hill {of} the “Elohiym Powers”, unto “Hhorev Parching heat”, 2 and {the} messenger {of} “Yhwh He is” [appeared] to him in {a} glimmering {of} fire from {the} midst {of} the thorn bush, and he saw, and look, the thorn bush {was} burning (with) the fire and the thorn bush {was} (not) eaten, 3 and “Mosheh Plucked out” said, please, I will turn aside and I will see this great appearance, why the thorn bush will not burn, 4 and “Yhwh He is” saw that he turned aside to see, and “Elohiym Powers” called out to him from {the} midst {of} the thorn bush, and he said, “Mosheh Plucked out” “Mosheh Plucked out”, and he said, (here) I {am}, 5 and he said, do not come near to this point, cast off your sandals from upon your feet, given that the area which you {are} standing upon {is the} ground {of a} special {place}, 6 and he said, I {am} “Elohiym Powers” {of} your father, “Elohiym Powers” {of} “Avraham Father lifted”, “Elohiym Powers” {of} “Yits'hhaq He laughs” and “Elohiym Powers” {of} “Ya'aqov He restrains”, and “Mosheh Plucked out” hid his face, given that he feared from staring to{ward} the “Elohiym Powers”,
Notice it was “plural” Elohiym that called out from the bush. (verse 4) If Thinker is correct then it was all three of the godhead that called out from the bush.
YHWH (1st person of the Trinity) saw Abraham turn aside to see the bush and Elohiym (All three persons of the trinity) spoke from the midst of the bush.
Since the scripture clearly states that the “messenger of YHWH” is the one in the bush and all three spoke from the bush, all three are messengers of YHWH. (This of course includes YHWH being a messenger of himself)
The more you dig into Thinker’s and WJ’s theories the sillier they become. MUCK AND GUCK.Now for a little common sense. —
1 and “Mosheh Plucked out” |had| {been} feeding {the} flocks {of} “Yitro His remainder”, his in-law, {the} administrator {of} “Mid'yan Quarrel”, and he drove the flocks (behind) the wilderness and he came to {the} hill {of} the “Elohiym Powers”, unto “Hhorev Parching heat”, 2 and {the} messenger {of} “Yhwh He is” [appeared] to him in {a} glimmering {of} fire from {the} midst {of} the thorn bush, and he saw, and look, the thorn bush {was} burning (with) the fire and the thorn bush {was} (not) eaten,
[So you have the angel/messenger of YHWH appearing as a flame in a bush]
3 and “Mosheh Plucked out” said, please, I will turn aside and I will see this great appearance, why the thorn bush will not burn, 4 and “Yhwh He is” saw that he turned aside to see,
[YHWH sees that Moses is willing to seek out this sight]
and “Elohiym Powers” called out to him from {the} midst {of} the thorn bush, and he said, “Mosheh Plucked out” “Mosheh Plucked out”, and he said, (here) I {am},
[And Elohiym (multiplicity of power, mighty God, God of majesty calls out from the bush.]
5 and he said, do not come near to this point, cast off your sandals from upon your feet, given that the area which you {are} standing upon {is the} ground {of a} special {place}, 6 and he said, I {am} “Elohiym Powers” {of} your father, “Elohiym Powers” {of} “Avraham Father lifted”, “Elohiym Powers” {of} “Yits'hhaq He laughs” and “Elohiym Powers” {of} “Ya'aqov He restrains”, and “Mosheh Plucked out” hid his face, given that he feared from staring to{ward} the “Elohiym Powers”,From a Hebrew culture and perspective it is common to describe/name God by his function in any given circumstance. Here we see YHWH, God’s name for his omnipresence in seeing all used in watching Moses to see what he will do. Then when the attention of Moses is fully on the spectacle the mighty God (Elohiym) speaks to him. Mighty God as described that he is the God of Abraham, Issaic and Jacob.
YHWH (he exists) looks upon the entire creation and watches Moses. FUNCTION? A God of omnipresence that sees everything.
Elohiym speaks to Moses from a manifestation created by the messenger of God.
Messenger FUNCTION? To reveal a manifestation of the Kingdom of God into the real world.
Elohiym FUNCTION? To express the might of the one true God.
Elohiym and YHWH are the same God. This only shows different aspects/functions of that same God.
The messenger is not a God at all. Even though he may represent through manifestations the nature or message of God.Martian
Just because it says “God said”, or “God spoke”, does not mean it was actually God that did the speaking.
Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Notice, “AT ANY TIME”.
Georg
Quote (martian @ May 01 2010,11:10) YHWH (he exists) looks upon the entire creation and watches Moses. FUNCTION? A God of omnipresence that sees everything.
MartianFUNCTION…A God/man that can be with every believer all over the world at the same time hearing their prayers and giving them rest! Matt 28:20 – Matt 11:27-30 – John 14:23
FUNCTION…A God/man who is a “Good Shephard” over his sheep which are spread all over the world, and the Shephard speaking to them and leading them all at once, and holding them in his hand so that no man can pluck them out of it. John 10:1-30
FUNCTION…A God/man that dwells in his people all at once and with his all seeing eyes guides them and gives unto them “Eternal life”. John 6:54 – John 10:28 – John 14:6 – 2 Cor 13:5
WJ
Hi WJ,
I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,11:49) Hi WJ, I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have never seen the word Bible in the Bible, but it does exist doesn't it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,11:49) Hi WJ, I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have never seen the word Bible in the Bible, but it does exist doesn't it?
WJ
The term “Bible” does not carry within it's meaning a theological idea or theory. Man/God does. It is a man made word to describe a man made doctrine.Quote (martian @ May 01 2010,12:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,11:49) Hi WJ, I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have never seen the word Bible in the Bible, but it does exist doesn't it?
WJ
The term “Bible” does not carry within it's meaning a theological idea or theory. Man/God does. It is a man made word to describe a man made doctrine.
MartianDid you just say “theological”?
Thats not in the Bible either is it? How about “indescribable” or “Omnipresent” or “unattainable”, they are not in the Bible either are they?
Mikes point is moot and so is yours!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,05:02) Did you just say “theological”? Thats not in the Bible either is it? How about “indescribable” or “Omnipresent” or “unattainable”, they are not in the Bible either are they?
Mikes point is moot and so is yours!
WJ
Hi WJ,Does this nonsense really make your point, in your mind? The Hebrews worshipped one God only. True Christians worship one God only. There is no “God/Man”
Nor is there anything even alluding to such a creature.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,05:02) Quote (martian @ May 01 2010,12:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,11:49) Hi WJ, I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have never seen the word Bible in the Bible, but it does exist doesn't it?
WJ
The term “Bible” does not carry within it's meaning a theological idea or theory. Man/God does. It is a man made word to describe a man made doctrine.
MartianDid you just say “theological”?
Thats not in the Bible either is it? How about “indescribable” or “Omnipresent” or “unattainable”, they are not in the Bible either are they?
Mikes point is moot and so is yours!
WJ
Still silly — Those words you quote do not carry a “doctrinal” bent.
In the one word “God/man” you imply a doctrinal assumption that is the very subject of this discussion. You cannot imply proof by making up a word based on your theory.
You are so full of nonsense it is very sad.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,05:02) Quote (martian @ May 01 2010,12:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2010,03:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2010,11:49) Hi WJ, I have never seen the phrase God/Man in the Bible. You are inventing deities.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have never seen the word Bible in the Bible, but it does exist doesn't it?
WJ
The term “Bible” does not carry within it's meaning a theological idea or theory. Man/God does. It is a man made word to describe a man made doctrine.
MartianDid you just say “theological”?
Thats not in the Bible either is it? How about “indescribable” or “Omnipresent” or “unattainable”, they are not in the Bible either are they?
Mikes point is moot and so is yours!
WJ
I can replace theological with “doctrine” which is a scriptural term without stretching the meaning into fairy land. You cannot replace the word “God/man without illusion and mystery.Guys, guys, give WJ some room.
He is nursing a very sore head from his bruising experience.
He's bound to be posting a little nonsense, more than normal!George,
John 5, means 'they have not 'listened' to his voice'.Context…
God used to speak to man directly until the debacle in the wilderness when the Hebrews said 'if we hear his voice we will die', meaning that their sins were so great that could not take God's voice directly. God, thereafter, spoke through Moses and the Prophets, then His Son.
God's voice came through the elemental forces: Thunder, lightening, rustling leaves…anything that can generate vibrations that are audible to the human ear.
God is also represented as FIRE, an all consuming, unstoppable powerful force. The Holy Spirit is represented by Water and Wind,an invasive, covering (science has discovered that the planets, Earth, Mars, were created in Water. Interesting…must be one for the science thread)
The simplest of understandings in language states that any word should be able to be replaced by it’s definition without changing that definition.
Furthermore the basics of proper interpretation principles says that if a word is defined one way in scripture it should hold that meaning in all others.
WJ insist that God/man would be a good descriptive word for Christ.
Unless there are two separate beings involved here, everything that is of Jesus is also of God.
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Born/begotten of His Spirit and a human woman.
GOD IS BORN?
Jesus is a decendant of the man David.
GOD A DECENDANT OF DAVID?
Jesus is the Son of Man
GOD SON OF MAN?
Jesus is a prophet and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh.
GOD A PROPHET?
Jesus is the Messiah
GOD THE MESSIAH?
Jesus lives a sinless life.
GOD LIVES A SINLESS LIFE?
Jesus is a man just like his brothers.
GOD MADE LIKE OTHER HUMANS?
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus.
GOD IS A MAN?
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh)
GOD IN SUBMISSION TO HIMSELF?
Jesus dies.
GOD DIES?
Jesus is the first of many brothers to recieve eternal life.
GOD RECIEVES ETERNAL LIFE?THERE IS NO PLACE IN SCRIPTURE WHEREIN GOD/MAN CAN BE SUBSTITUED FOR CHRIST AND HAVE IT FIT WITHOUT MAJOR CONTRADICTION. EVEN THOSE FORCED PLACES ARE THE MINORITY OF PLACES AND THEY CONTRADICT OTHERS.
Mertian said:
Quote Thinker has made a point of stating that Elohiym is plural indicating the three persons of the Trinity.
To ALL:There Martian goes again misrepresenting things. I have never said that the word elohim indicates the trinity. I said that it indicates a “plural unity” in God. I said that the new testament proves the trinity.
I don't know how Martian sleeps at night.
Martian:
Quote Notice it was “plural” Elohiym that called out from the bush. (verse 4) If Thinker is correct then it was all three of the godhead that called out from the bush.
The Messenger CLEARLY idenitifed Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Moses told the people that Jehovah appeared to Him (4:1). But Jehovah as Martian describes Him did not appear to Moses. It was the Messenger who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Therefore, the Messenger was Jehovah (Ex. 23:20-25).The earliest manuscripts we have say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt:
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV (Critical Text)
Therefore, Jesus was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who claimed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (3:6) and who Moses said appeared to Him (4:1) and who saved the people out of Egypt (Jude 5).
Martian:
Quote The more you dig into Thinker’s and WJ’s theories the sillier they become. MUCK AND GUCK
Martian creates a caricature of what thinker and WJ believe and then calls it “muck and guck.”thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2010,12:04) Therefore, Jesus was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who claimed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (3:6) and who Moses said appeared to Him (4:1) and who saved the people out of Egypt (Jude 5).
Hi Thinker,How do you reconcile your view with Acts 7?
30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si′nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2010,13:48) Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2010,12:04) Therefore, Jesus was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who claimed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (3:6) and who Moses said appeared to Him (4:1) and who saved the people out of Egypt (Jude 5).
Hi Thinker,How do you reconcile your view with Acts 7?
30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si′nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’
peace and love,
mike
Mike,I have answered you already. My view does not need to be reconciled with Acts 7. It says that the Messenger appeared in the burning bush. But Moses told the people that it was Jehovah who appeared in the bush (Ex. 4:1) Therefore, the Messenger was Jehovah. Thus the Messenger's voice was Jehovah's voice.
Note that Stephen said that it was the voice of the Lord (Kurios). Jesus is the Lord (Kurios).
The oldest manuscripts say that it was Jesus who saved the people out of Egypt
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV (Critical Text)
The Messenger and Jehovah (Jesus) were one and the same.
thinker
I am off for another week, so all the trinitarians can have at it. LOL
WATCH OUT HERE COMES THE GUCK AND MUCK.Quote (martian @ May 02 2010,11:05) The simplest of understandings in language states that any word should be able to be replaced by it’s definition without changing that definition.
Furthermore the basics of proper interpretation principles says that if a word is defined one way in scripture it should hold that meaning in all others.
WJ insist that God/man would be a good descriptive word for Christ.
Unless there are two separate beings involved here, everything that is of Jesus is also of God.
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Born/begotten of His Spirit and a human woman.
GOD IS BORN?
Jesus is a decendant of the man David.
GOD A DECENDANT OF DAVID?
Jesus is the Son of Man
GOD SON OF MAN?
Jesus is a prophet and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh.
GOD A PROPHET?
Jesus is the Messiah
GOD THE MESSIAH?
Jesus lives a sinless life.
GOD LIVES A SINLESS LIFE?
Jesus is a man just like his brothers.
GOD MADE LIKE OTHER HUMANS?
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus.
GOD IS A MAN?
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh)
GOD IN SUBMISSION TO HIMSELF?
Jesus dies.
GOD DIES?
Jesus is the first of many brothers to recieve eternal life.
GOD RECIEVES ETERNAL LIFE?THERE IS NO PLACE IN SCRIPTURE WHEREIN GOD/MAN CAN BE SUBSTITUED FOR CHRIST AND HAVE IT FIT WITHOUT MAJOR CONTRADICTION. EVEN THOSE FORCED PLACES ARE THE MINORITY OF PLACES AND THEY CONTRADICT OTHERS.
Martian……….They Just don't get it> They are unable to , a deluding Spirit (intellect) has prevented them from seeing it .Hope you treatment goes well brother…………………..gene
Hi Thinker,
You said:
Quote I have answered you already. My view does not need to be reconciled with Acts 7. It says that the Messenger appeared in the burning bush. But Moses told the people that it was Jehovah who appeared in the bush (Ex. 4:1) Therefore, the Messenger was Jehovah. Thus the Messenger's voice was Jehovah's voice. Stephen said an angel appeared in the bush, then Moses heard the Lord's voice saying, “I am the God of….”.
Did Stephen ever confuse Jesus with God? Let's break down what you say.
Moses actually talked to “Jehovah the Son”, but never let on that God was two persons.
Stephen knew that it was “Jehovah the Son” also, but never let on that God was two persons.
“Jehovah the Son” was actually a messenger of “Jehovah the Father”, therefore a servant even during the time you think he was equal God.
Is that about right? Because your wording, “Therefore, the Messenger was Jehovah” is confusing for me. Is Almighty God a messenger for anyone? Can a messenger OF Jehovah also BE Jehovah?
peace and love,
mikeThinker says “There Martian goes again misrepresenting things. I have never said that the word elohim indicates the trinity. I said that it indicates a “plural unity” in God. I said that the new testament proves the trinity.”
Well thinker what is the unity of? Unity of what?Thinker says “Martian creates a caricature of what thinker and WJ believe and then calls it “muck and guck.”
thankfully I do not have to work to make anything up. You make up enough muck and guck up all by yourself. Besides you two are not worth the trouble to design intricate tales about.
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