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Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 31 2010,18:12) Yeshua is YHWH.
Hi Isaiah 1:18,Your logic doesn't add up; YHVH has No Father, while YAshua does! (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35)
Ed J
PS> Why don't you (try to) learn some Hebrew?
And learn how to spell the English counterparts of their Hebrew (יהשוע & יהוה) names correctly!Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 31 2010,18:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2010,08:41) The word “Almighty” means the “mightiest of the mighty”. So if Jesus isn't the Almighty God like the Father is, then he is a different god, like the scriptures teach. He can't be a person in the being of the Almighty God without having that title himself. Does he have that title?
Polytheistic Arians often make a semantic argument over the titles “Mighty God” and “Almighty God”, postulating that each designates a different category of being in their godly panthion. Often when christian's cite Is 9:6 as proof of Yeshua's deity they will counter with “Yes Jesus is “Mighty God, but the Father is Almighty God, He's the mightiest of the mighty”. The point should me made to them, however, that in the very next chapter of Isaiah the exact same Hebrew language (Heb. El Gibbor) is used in reference to YHWH (Is 10:21). The Arian is confronted with two possible explanations.1. The title Mighty God does not denote a lesser category deity than Almighty God.
2. Yeshua is YHWH.
Such is the weakness of the Arian theology….
Paul,Is the “mighty God” translation even correct? Probably not. The online Hebrew Interlinear translates “el gibbor” in Isaiah 9:6 as, “Masterful God.” I pointed this out to Mike and in our debate and he swept it under the rug.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa9.pdf
The name “Masterful God” is used of YHWH alone! Therefore, Jesus is JHWH!
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 02 2010,05:00) The name “Masterful God” is used of YHWH alone! Therefore, Jesus is JHWH!
Apparently not, Roo. If it is used of Jesus, then it can't possibly be exclusive to YHVH, right?When is el shadday used of Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeRokkaman, Dennison, I wasnt agreeing with all of (that) post a few pages back, only the last part about beliefs I need to read posts properly before agreeing sorry!
Quote (karmarie @ June 04 2010,10:10) Rokkaman, Dennison, I wasnt agreeing with all of (that) post a few pages back, only the last part about beliefs I need to read posts properly before agreeing sorry!
Hey Karmarie,I have no idea what your talking about lol….
You already have been Simply Forgiven,
Even though i dont think you did anything wrong.
Bump for Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 02 2010,05:00) The name “Masterful God” is used of YHWH alone! Therefore, Jesus is JHWH!
Apparently not, Roo. If it is used of Jesus, then it can't possibly be exclusive to YHVH, right?When is El Shadday used of Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2010,04:10) Because Jehovah is called Mighty God does not take away from the fact that He is the ONLY One ever called ALMIGHTY GOD.
Because Yeshua and the Father are both given the appelative “El Gibbor” the MikeBoll/Watchtower assertion that these two denote different categories of ontology is invalidated.I have a challenge for you Mike. Prove to us that in every occasion the title “El Shadday” is used in OT scripture it's always applied to the Father and never to the Logos. I've asked David to do this once and he declined. Maybe you're up to it.
Of course if you're not able to do this then you're whole argument around the usage of the titles “El Gobbor” and “El Shadday” will have been vaporised.
Quote ps Jesus is NEVER called YHWH in scripture.
Yes He is. Read Zechariah 14.Hi Paul,
You said:
Quote Because Yeshua and the Father are both given the appelative “El Gibbor” the MikeBoll/Watchtower assertion that these two denote different categories of ontology is invalidated. So if I found a scripture where Satan was called “mighty god”, he would also automatically be part of the godhead?
You said:
Quote I have a challenge for you Mike. Prove to us that in every occasion the title “El Shadday” is used in OT scripture it's always applied to the Father and never to the Logos. How about you show me the ONE scripture where it applies to Jesus instead.
You said:
Quote Yes He is. Read Zechariah 14. Already did by request from Kathi. Just did it again. There is no mention of Jesus in that scripture, nor any implication that the Jehovah referred to is any other than the same Jehovah referred to throughout scripture.
Why don't you point me exactly to any scriptures to which you refer. After all, I'm the one who believes Jehovah when He says he is One. You're the one who says He is three. Burden of proof is on you. And while your at it, find a couple scriptures where the Holy Spirit is called Jehovah God Almighty too.
peace and love,
mikeReally?
I should print out many scriptures when I already know that Jehovah is the only Almighty God?
You're the one saying Jesus is called Almighty God somewhere – prove it.
ps, I just bumped a post for you in the prototokos thread
Quote I've asked David to do this once and he declined. Is 1:18, wouldn't it be easier for you to tell me where Santa claus is, then for me to tell you where he is not?
Quote Because Yeshua and the Father are both given the appelative “El Gibbor” the MikeBoll/Watchtower assertion that these two denote different categories of ontology is invalidated. I have a challenge for you Mike. Prove to us that in every occasion the title “El Shadday” is used in OT scripture it's always applied to the Father and never to the Logos. I've asked David to do this once and he declined. Maybe you're up to it.
For the record, what JW's do state is that many are referred to as “mighty” but only Jehovah is specifally referred to as ALL MIGHTY.
Is 1:18, I know you must be able to understand the difference between being mighty (which many are) and being all mighty.
It's about 43 times if I remember that Jehovah is called Almighty. “Jesus” by name is never specifically referred to as such. The few places where you believe he is, are not very clear. (Revelation of course.)Is 1:18, you said that you challenged me in this. I don't remember that challenge and it doesn't seem like me to walk away from anything like this. I probably have those 43 instances in a file somewhere. Yup, I do.
GENESIS 17:1
“When Ábram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Ábram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.”
GENESIS 17:5
“And your name will not be called Ábram anymore, and your name must become Abraham, because a father of a crowd of nations I will make you.”GENESIS 28:3
“And God Almighty will bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and you will certainly become a congregation of peoples.” (Hence, same as Gen 17:1)GENESIS 35:11
“And God said further to him: “I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and become many. Nations and a congregation of nations will proceed out of you, and kings will come out of your loins.”GENESIS 43:14
“And may God Almighty give YOU pity before the man, that he may certainly release to YOU YOUR other brother and Benjamin. But I, in case I must be bereaved, I shall certainly be bereaved!””GENESIS 48:3
“And Jacob proceeded to say to Joseph: “God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Cánaan that he might bless me.”EXODUS 6:2-3
“And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.”NUMBERS 24:1
“When Bálaam got to see that it was good in the eyes of Jehovah to bless Israel, he did not go away as at the other times to come upon any unlucky omens, but he directed his face to the wilderness.”
NUMBERS 24:4
“The utterance of the one hearing the sayings of God, Who got to see a vision of the Almighty While falling down with the eyes uncovered:” (compare num 12:6)NUMBERS 24:16
“The utterance of the one hearing the sayings of God, And the one knowing the knowledge of the Most High— A vision of the Almighty he got to see While falling down with the eyes uncovered:”RUTH 1:20
“And she would say to the women: “Do not call me Náo·mi. Call me Mára, for the Almighty has made it very bitter for me.”JOB 5:17
“Look! Happy is the man whom God reproves; And the discipline of the Almighty do not you reject!” (Compare ps 94:12)JOB 6:4
“For the arrows of the Almighty are with me, The venom of which my spirit is drinking; The terrors from God range themselves up against me.” (Compare ps 38:1,2)JOB 6:14
“As regards anyone who withholds loving-kindness from his own fellow, He will also leave off even the fear of the Almighty.”JOB 8:3
“Will God himself pervert judgment, Or will the Almighty himself pervert righteousness?”JOB 8:5
“If you yourself will look for God, And [if] of the Almighty you will implore favor,”JOB 11:7
“Can you find out the deep things of God, Or can you find out to the very limit of the Almighty?”JOB 13:3
“However, I, for my part, would speak to the Almighty himself, And in arguing with God I would find delight.”JOB 15:25
“Because he stretches out his hand against God himself, And over the Almighty he tries to show himself superior;”JOB 21:15
“What does the Almighty amount to, that we should serve him, And how do we benefit ourselves in that we have come in touch with him?’”JOB 21:20
“His eyes will see his decay, And from the rage of the Almighty he will drink.”JOB 22:3
“Does the Almighty have any delight in that you are righteous, Or any gain in that you make your way blameless?”JOB 22:17
“Who are saying to the [true] God: ‘Turn away from us! And what can the Almighty accomplish against us?’”JOB 22:23
“If you return to the Almighty, you will be built up; [If] you will keep unrighteousness far from your tent,”JOB 22:25
“The Almighty also will indeed become your precious ores, And silver, the choicest, to you.”JOB 22:26
“For then in the Almighty you will find your exquisite delight, And you will raise your face to God himself.”JOB 23:16
“Even God himself has made my heart timid, And the Almighty himself has disturbed me.”JOB 24:1
““Why is it that times have not been stored up by the Almighty himself, And the very ones knowing him have not beheld his days?”JOB 27:2
““As God lives, who has taken away my judgment, And as the Almighty [lives], who has made my soul bitter,”JOB 27:10-11
“Or in the Almighty will he find exquisite delight? Will he call to God at all times? I shall instruct YOU men by the hand of God; That which is with the Almighty I shall not hide.”JOB 27:13
“This is the share of the wicked man from God; And the inheritance of the tyrants they will receive from the Almighty himself.”JOB 29:5
“When the Almighty was yet with me, [When] my attendants were all around me!”JOB 31:2
“And what portion is there from God above, Or inheritance from the Almighty from on high?”JOB 31:35
“O that I had someone listening to me, That according to my signature the Almighty himself would answer me! Or that the individual in the case at law with me had written a document itself!”JOB 32:8
“Surely it is the spirit in mortal men And the breath of the Almighty [that] gives them understanding.”JOB 33:4
“God’s own spirit made me, And the Almighty’s own breath proceeded to bring me to life.”JOB 33:10
“Look! Occasions for opposition to me he finds, He takes me for an enemy of his.”JOB 33:12
“Look! In this you have not been in the right, I answer you; For God is much more than mortal man.”JOB 35:13
“Only the untruth God does not hear, And the Almighty himself does not behold it.”JOB 37:23
“As for the Almighty, we have not found him out; He is exalted in power, And justice and abundance of righteousness he will not belittle.”JOB 40:1-2
“And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job and say: “Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty? Let the reprover of God himself answer it.””PSALM 68:14
“When the Almi
ghty One scattered abroad the kings in it, It began to snow in Zaĺmon.”PSALM 91:1
“Anyone dwelling in the secret place of the Most High Will procure himself lodging under the very shadow of the Almighty One.”ISAIAH 13:6
““Howl, YOU people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling from the Almighty it will come.”EZEKIEL 1:24
“And I got to hear the sound of their wings, a sound like that of vast waters, like the sound of the Almighty One, when they went, the sound of a tumult, like the sound of an encampment. When they stood still, they would let their wings down.”EZEKIEL 10:5
“And the very sound of the wings of the cherubs made itself heard to the outer courtyard, like the sound of God Almighty when he speaks.”JOEL 1:15
““Alas for the day; because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!”2 CORINTHIANS 6:18
““‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.””REVELATION 1:8
““I am the Aĺpha and the O·méga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.””REVELATION 4:8
“And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.””REVELATION 11:17
“saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.”REVELATION 15:3
“And they are singing the song of Moses the slave of God and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity.”REVELATION 16:7
“And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.””REVELATION 16:14
“They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”REVELATION 19:6
“And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king.”REVELATION 19:15
“And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty.”REVELATION 21:22
“And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is].”******
Out of these, there are only a couple that I suspect you would ever claim are Jesus being called “almighty” and guess what, they're in the not so easily understood book of Revelation.
After looking at what you said, I see you've made this even easier for us.
Quote Prove to us that in every occasion the title “El Shadday” is used in OT scripture it's always applied to the Father and never to the Logos. Again, it is obvious that the vast majority very clearly do refer to Jehovah. If you think any of them do not, why not state which 1. I even provided a list.
“Almighty” is most often associated with “God,” and the term “God Almighty” occurs frequently. Since Jehovah is specifically and without question called God a thousand times in scripture, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.
Yet, somehow, Is 1:18 is trying to flip it around in some kind of Ad Ignorantiam burden of proof fallacy.
It's also interesting that this word is never applied to the holy spirit.
David,
Once a teacher told me that to find out what something is, you must know what it is not.
do you agree with that statement. because im confused about that.
Quote (david @ June 18 2010,18:10) “Almighty” is most often associated with “God,” and the term “God Almighty” occurs frequently. Since Jehovah is specifically and without question called God a thousand times in scripture, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah. Yet, somehow, Is 1:18 is trying to flip it around in some kind of Ad Ignorantiam burden of proof fallacy.
It's also interesting that this word is never applied to the holy spirit.
How do you know that El Shaddai is never applied to the Yeshua in the OT?How do you know that El Shaddai is never applied to the Holy Spirit in the OT?
Do you have any lexical proof for this or are you just letting a watchtower presupposition dictate how you understand the passages?
Isa 1:18………What about all the scriptures David Posted, does that not mean anything Isa 1:18, And what about where God the FATHER said we are to not have any other GOD besides HIM ALONE , and He even said he looked and could not find any other GOD beside HIM. And where Jesus said “FOR THOU (someone other then himself) ART THE ONLY (means no other) TRUE GOD. Isa 1:18 does that not means anything to you. Brother i never could understand why a person as sharp as you are can't come to understand these thing brother. Surely you can understand them. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2010,15:35) Hi David, Great post!
I agree with you that it will probably not be one of the ones WJ “picks and chooses” to answer. 
I have one more point to add, if I may:
Why in New Jerusalem will there only be two thrones for members of the godhead? There is one for the Father and one for the Son. Where is the throne of the third equal member of the godhead?
peace and love,
mike
Who ever said there were 3 “equal” parts of the Godhead?The Son is in submission the the Father, as is the Holy Spirit. Here's a really good example of all three being active.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.
Mat 3:17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.So we see Jesus being baptised, the Holy Spirit descending on Him and His Father speaking from Heaven.
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