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Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2010,22:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2010,16:15) Yet we see men in the Bible dying for Jesus and SERVING him with absolute unreserved devotion. Jesus is given the highest possible honour and devotion even to the death, and if he is not God then Christianity is committing adultery for exalting him this way!
As Paul has rightly brought out, there is no scripture by any Apostles anywhere that warns believers to be carefull how much honour and devotion we give Jesus!
In fact the same word for worship to Jesus is the word Jesus used for the worship of the Father and nowhere are the believers told never to worship him yet we see men in the Bible doing just that!
Yes Keith, but people died for King David, served him with absolute unreserved devotion, and also did obeisance to him. Yet you don't think he is God, do you?Only the ones who don't follow Jesus' teachings exalt him as God. He never taught that we should, did he?
There is also no scripture that tells us to worship Jesus as God.
And it is the same word for worship where the formally blind man “worshipped” Jesus in front of the Pharisees. Do you think they would have stood by and said nothing if it was an act of heresy? Not to mention you know that the word can mean worship as in God, and to honor revelantly as in man.
peace and love,
mike
MikeBad analogy!
David was fighting Gods battles, and the people were fighting for God with David. They never called David their God did they?
Did David ever claim that his men were to die for “His sake”?
The Apostles give absolute control over every area of their lives and put Jesus first place in their lives as their “Only Lord Master and called him God. Jesus was their “Prize”.
In Hebrew culture that would be Idolatry!
Not only that Jesus was their “Owner and Possessor”.
Did David ever claim that he “Owned” Israel, the people of God?
You always try to find some earthly example to portray Jesus, as if he can be compared to anyone else.
This just shows how you truly do view Jesus and do not give him the same honour as the Father!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,14:20) Hi WJ,
The Jesus we know never spoke of any trinity.
Of whom do you speak?The theological mush tainted with rationalisations and justifications that you offer is bad food.
NHYea I know. The Jesus you know never spoke Matt 28:19 like many other scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit!
The Jesus you know is not the Jesus of the Bible!
WJ
Hi WJ,
So let Jesus teach.
You have yet to show where Jesus taught God is a trinity and he is part of a trinity God
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2010,06:38) The Apostles give absolute control over every area of their lives and put Jesus first place in their lives as their “Only Lord Master and called him God. Jesus was their “Prize”.
Think WJ, think!If Jesus was the apostle's ONLY Lord and Master, and Jesus is the Son, that would mean the Father was not their Lord at all. Is that what you think the scriptures teach? Was the Father not also the Lord of the apostles?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2010,01:52) Can you say Jesus is your “Great God and Savour” like Paul? Can you say Jesus is your “God and Savour” like Peter?
WJ,Neither Peter nor Paul say these things. I have shown you. Would you like to see the Greek laid out word for word again?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 02 2010,23:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2010,06:38) The Apostles give absolute control over every area of their lives and put Jesus first place in their lives as their “Only Lord Master and called him God. Jesus was their “Prize”.
Think WJ, think!If Jesus was the apostle's ONLY Lord and Master, and Jesus is the Son, that would mean the Father was not their Lord at all. Is that what you think the scriptures teach? Was the Father not also the Lord of the apostles?
peace and love,
mike
MikeNo it is you who is not thinking!
Because what you are saying is the words of Jude do not mean what they say.
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny “our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, “that the Lord, (same Lord Jesus) after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 1:4, 5
What is it with you Mike? You effectively make the word of God of none effect when you say things like…
Jesus is “Not the Only Lord” or Jesus is “a god” but he is not god or there is only one god but yet there are many gods.
Jude knew who Jesus was and he knew him as the “Only Lord and Master” because he believed that the Father and Jesus are “One God” and “One Lord”. So the title Lord belongs to both the Father and Jesus just as the title God!
But you cannot reconcile these scriptures in your theology without making them say something other than what they plainly say!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2010,01:17) Hi WJ,
You deny the Lord instead installing him as part of a god.
wake up
NHNo Jesus is my “Only Lord and Master”, how about you?
WJ
Hi WJ,
Then why do you prefer the teachings of catholic theologians?
Calling him LORD LORD gives you no benefitsQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2010,13:27) Hi WJ,
Then why do you prefer the teachings of catholic theologians?
Calling him LORD LORD gives you no benefits
NHI didn't think you could answer.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Jesus never taught trinity but only those later who had wandered from the path of truth.
Choose life.Mikeboll said to WJ:
Quote If Jesus was the apostle's ONLY Lord and Master, and Jesus is the Son, that would mean the Father was not their Lord at all. Is that what you think the scriptures teach? Was the Father not also the Lord of the apostles?
No that's not what WJ thinks. He does not think that the expression “Only Lord” in reference to Jesus negates the Lordship of the Father. Conversly, the expresssion “Only true God” in reference to the Father does not exclude Jesus.Duh! If you can't apply your logic consistently then you should dump it.
the Roo
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2010,16:33) Jude knew who Jesus was and he knew him as the “Only Lord and Master” because he believed that the Father and Jesus are “One God” and “One Lord”. So the title Lord belongs to both the Father and Jesus just as the title God!
Hi WJ,You say that Jude believed that the Father and Jesus are one God and one Lord? Maybe you're right, let's see.
What else did Jude say that makes it clear that he knew that God and His Son were the same being?
1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:Right from verse 1 he makes a distinction between God AND Jesus Christ.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
In verse 20, he further distiguishes the Holy Spirit as also NOT God, for he says to “pray IN the Holy Spirit”, not “pray TO the Holy Spirit”. And in 21, he doesn't say “the Father's love”, but “God's love”. So of the two persons mentioned in 21, only one of them is God, the other is “our Lord Jesus Christ”.
25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
He started with a distinction, now he ends with one. Again, two persons are mentioned, but the word “through” makes clear that only ONE of them is “the only God our Savior”.
Hmmm…….Yet you insist that Jude “believed that the Father and Jesus are One God and One Lord”. I think you are speaking the truth, but don't know it. The Father IS One God. And Jesus IS One Lord. So, you're right after all – the Father and Jesus together make One God and One Lord.
Seriously WJ, read these scriptures and tell me you seriously think Jude DIDN'T distinguish between God and Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 04 2010,10:09) No that's not what WJ thinks. He does not think that the expression “Only Lord” in reference to Jesus negates the Lordship of the Father. Conversly, the expresssion “Only true God” in reference to the Father does not exclude Jesus.
Hi Roo,It is not clear from the Greek that the “only” even applies to the Lord part. As you admit, one can not seriously take it to mean “to the exclusion of the Father”. He might have been saying, “our only master, and [our] Lord Jesus Christ”.
The “owner” part is obviously referring to the following scriptures, which say that Jesus bought us for a price – thus making him our “owner”.
2 Peter 2:2 NWT
2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves1 Cor 6:19-20 NWT
Also, YOU do not belong to yourselves, 20 for YOU were bought with a price.1 Cor 7:22-23 NWT
likewise he that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 YOU were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of menYou say that “only true God” doesn't exclude Jesus. Even when Jesus is the one who said it? Okay, whatever dude. I think it is pretty clear that if Jesus (one person) is calling the Father (a different person) “the only true God”, he is not including himself in that title.
But let's take it one step further. There is only one God Almighty. Can you show me where Jesus is called that?
peace and love,
mikeMike………..They just don't get it brother. I have went over this many time with WJ and KJ.
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Ha! “Escaping is not his aim” (Darth Vader concerning Obiwan Kinobi)
Gene,
“Truth is not their aim”
Sustaining dispute with the hope of tripping up a believer, turning them to the Darkside, now That is their aim…Thus, it matters not how many times, by how many person, they are shown the truth, that they fall on their heads, that they are crushed beneath tge feet of righteousness, God has made them into bugs that not even a nuclear winter can dessimate (They think this is good)
Quote (JustAskin @ June 04 2010,11:57) God has made them into bugs that not even a nuclear winter can dessimate (They think this is good)
I think a cockroach is the only “bug” thought to be able to suvive a nuclear winter. 
Just kidding, pagans!
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 02 2010,15:36) Hi Dennison, The organization helps tons, man. Thanks.
You said:
Quote you make Jesus sound like a God in training. How so?
You said:
Quote lol did david really ever take the Wheel? Well, he did rule over God's people for Him, didn't he? But like Jesus, he had help and Spirit from his Creator.
You said:
Quote God wants to be the very center of our lives. lets analyze God for a second. how did he react to the jews who wanted a King. didnt God tell the Judge that they didnt reject the Judge but were rejecting God himself for asking for a king? God felt rejected. Agreed. He also wants us to love Him with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength.
You said:
Quote But thats my point!! hey dont steal my point.
Im saying he doesnt, beacuse you make it seem Jesus does!What does that mean? Do you think God shares His glory with Jesus or not?
You said:
Quote If he doesnt share glory, whats up with Jesus having to rule everything, even our hearts. Jesus is who God chose as King. Much like He chose David. But David wasn't God, was he?
You said:
Quote and Solomon,…. well his glory wasnt all of that. It was based on God, We should do all things to the glory of the Father. All of us – including Jesus.
You said:
Quote Revelatinos 2:17– i thought this was referring to Us. ill go back and check again later. It is. My point is that Jesus gives them the name, then says no one knows it but the one he gives it to. Isn't it implied that Jesus will also know the name he just gave them?
You said:
Quote Winepress: isnt that the cup that Jesus drank from that he didnt want? the Wrath of God? if you agree, than i will extend after you next reply. Jesus didn't drink from God's wrath. He asked God to take the cup from him. That means: He asked God to make it so he didn't have to go through with the torture and dying. He said “anything is possible for you”, implying God could fulfill His purpose another way if He chose to. But Jesus made it very clear that he would do whatever God's will was, not his.
You said:
Quote why does scripture say that Jesus is the same yesturday, today and tomorow? IMO, it means Jesus will no longer change, he is immortal now. Unlike Jehovah, who NEVER EVER has changed.
You said:
Quote than in revelations states that he says he is the Alpha and the Omega? Which verse?
You said:
Quote We know that Angels are like crazy molded beings. We know there are not two alike. they are not even a race, they are individual creatures each with its tasks. How do we know this? Scriptures, please.
You said:
Quote Question? How do the angels who have mighty powers, and are even mentioned to be the lesser light, can limit there very powers to a humanlike form? How is it that angels came as visitors many times. So what's the question? If God can make a camel pass through the eye of a needle, why can't he send angels as men?
You said:
Quote the ultimate question: If God wanted to, can he limit his state to become physically human, yet at the same time still be omnipresent spiritualy. To say that God cannot be physical means he is not omnipresent. Tell me what you think brother,
I'm torn. On one hand, God can do anything He chooses to. Things our limited brains can't even fathom. On the other hand, it says even the heavens can't contain Him. That makes me think He would explode or disintegrate a human body.
But I have to stand by the first statement – God can do ANYTHING. Our eyes cannot see His face, this much we know from scripture. He says we have never seen Him take ANY form, including man. That is His choice. He could choose to let man see Him (although He might have to change our physical makeup for it to happen). He just hasn't. Bottom line is that He clearly said He has taken no form visible to us, so don't worship anything with a form at all. Jesus had a form visible to us, right?Nice chat, Dennison. Do me a favor and pick any two or three points you want to discuss from this post (or from where ever) and we can take it a point or two at a time from now on. I'm getting “posted out”, man.
peace and love to you, brother – I enjoy our talks
mike
Hey mike,lol im already posted out.
i would rather respond to your whole post, but i wont.
Im going to make this simple.
God is perfect correct? that means though eve
rything is possible for him, he will only choose whats perfect, flawless. he will take nothing, and make it perfect.If Jesus implied that God can compelete his purpose another way, than its not perfect. But Gods will was determine on one way.
The Perfect way.
To respond to one of your questions, If God can make angels into men, make a camel go through the eye of the needle, than God can be omnipresent, yet a Perfect man all in the same time. To say he couldnt is a limitation.
For us to see God the way we are, is Death.
he is to powerful. Yet somehow all that glory fitted into a tabernacle for men.Point being since i cant extend to much,
God is perfect,
He can do anything that is Perfect,
everythign he does is flawless,And since he is Perfect, there is something Perfect about limitiation.
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