Matthew 28:19 authentic or not?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,08:48)

Hi TT, God is spirit. The Lord is the Spirit. yet strangely you think the Spirit of God and Christ is another person??

Uh, the Spirit is indeed a distinct Person. He may be grieved like any person may be grieved.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You have no scriptural teaching basis for your theory.
So why would you risk divine approbium by continuing in this folly?

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ May 13 2010,08:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,08:48) Hi TT, God is spirit. The Lord is the Spirit. yet strangely you think the Spirit of God and Christ is another person?? Uh, the Spirit is indeed a distinct Person. He may be grieved like any person may be grieved. thinker

Hi TT,
The Spirit is as the finger of God.[Lk11/mt12]
If you hit your finger with a hammer would you be grieved?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,08:52)

Hi TT, You have no scriptural teaching basis for your theory. So why would you risk divine approbium by continuing in this folly?

So you deny that the Spirit may be grieved?

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,08:53)

Quote (thethinker @ May 13 2010,08:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,08:48) Hi TT, God is spirit. The Lord is the Spirit. yet strangely you think the Spirit of God and Christ is another person?? Uh, the Spirit is indeed a distinct Person. He may be grieved like any person may be grieved. thinker Hi TT, The Spirit is as the finger of God.[Lk11/mt12] If you hit your finger with a hammer would you be grieved?

Paul said that the Spirit Himself may be grieved. We are Christ's hands and feet. But we are still persons aren't we Nick?

Your understanding of reality is less than a first grader's.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Mt 28 does not give you authority to preach a trinity so who gave it to you?

[JustAskin]

TT,

You can stress metal…!

Is it uncommon to say, 'my spirit was grieved.'

WJ's book has his spirit in it.
Does that mean the book is a person?
Can the book not teach, does that make it a person?
Does not the content of the book act as a 'Reminder'?
If someone professes against what the book teaches, is that not 'Grieving' the spirit of the book?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,18:03)

TT, You can stress metal…! Is it uncommon to say, 'my spirit was  grieved.' WJ's book has his spirit in it. Does that mean the book is a person? Can the book not teach, does that make it a person? Does not the content of the book act as a 'Reminder'? If someone professes against what the book teaches, is that not 'Grieving' the spirit of the book?

Does a book have a spirit that can be grieved?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,18:03)

TT, You can stress metal…! Is it uncommon to say, 'my spirit was  grieved.' WJ's book has his spirit in it. Does that mean the book is a person? Can the book not teach, does that make it a person? Does not the content of the book act as a 'Reminder'? If someone professes against what the book teaches, is that not 'Grieving' the spirit of the book?

JA

Can a book hear, and feel and move?

Can a book dwell in the hearts of every believer?

Is a book able to give life?

Or is it more like the Holy Spirit can do those things with a book!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 13 2010,10:03)

TT, You can stress metal…! Is it uncommon to say, 'my spirit was  grieved.' WJ's book has his spirit in it. Does that mean the book is a person? Can the book not teach, does that make it a person? Does not the content of the book act as a 'Reminder'? If someone professes against what the book teaches, is that not 'Grieving' the spirit of the book?

JA,

Your analogy is total nonsense! The word “to grieve” means “to be sad” (Strong's# 3076-77).

Your poor comprehension “grieves” me. You need to get out of biblical commentary and stick to fishin.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 13 2010,10:39)

Quote (JustAskin @ May 12 2010,18:03) TT, You can stress metal…! Is it uncommon to say, 'my spirit was  grieved.' WJ's book has his spirit in it. Does that mean the book is a person? Can the book not teach, does that make it a person? Does not the content of the book act as a 'Reminder'? If someone professes against what the book teaches, is that not 'Grieving' the spirit of the book? JA Can a book hear, and feel and move? Can a book dwell in the hearts of every believer? Is a book able to give life? Or is it more like the Holy Spirit can do those things with a book! WJ

Keith,

JA has totally flipped!  

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You have no authority to teach trinity?
Why play silly word games and ignore the elephant in the room?

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker……..Its like you are straining out a gnat and sallowing a Camel. You dart off into some obscure text to try to support your preexisting convections caused by false teachers. Dump this and Start over with a new look and you might be surprised what you will discover, without having to force the texts to conform to those false teachings. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ May 12 2010,18:58)

Well, it's not really clear from the above scriptures that “every” NT writer knew that only one being is God, because all those scriptures were from Paul. But, of course, James, Peter and John had similar expressions in their greetings.

Hi David,

Agreed. That's why I said it was evident from greetings and closing SUCH AS THESE that every NT writer knew the difference between God and Jesus. Even in the tiny book of Jude, there are at least 3 statements he makes that confirm he knew that only one was God. And it wasn't Jesus.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 13 2010,06:31)

The definition of a Trinity is what Jesus speaks of in the fullest since of the word, since he speaks of three separate identities with the definite article and a singular name or authority that the Apostles were to baptize into. There is nothing in the verse that implies inequality with the three. Also it must have been total “disrespect of immense magnitude” for Jesus to speak of the three knowing that he would inspire the Apostles to often speak of the 2 yet sometimes of the three. Not to mention the disrespect of our Lord to the Father for mentioning a mere force or power with equal terms in the mandate, namely a singular name!

Hi WJ,

Is there something in that verse that DOES imply equality. Even the pro-trinity Strong says there isn't.

This type of reference, admits McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, “proves only that there are the three subjects named, . . . but it does not prove, by itself, that all the three belong necessarily to the divine nature, and possess equal divine honor.”

Although a supporter of the Trinity, that source says of 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14): “We could not justly infer that they possessed equal authority, or the same nature.” And of Matthew 28:18-20 it says: “This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.”

And you don't even know that the same name belongs to all three. When are you going to answer my posts from earlier in this thread? What about the “throne” question?

I'll bump my post for ya.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Bump for WJ

Hi WJ,

I have asked you what exactly Matt 28:19 means to you.  You played word games and said I have a comprehension problem.  So I clarified my question as plain as I possibly could have, and what do you decide to answer to?  This other post to Paul.

Where's the answer to the question I've had to ask 4 different ways?  Where's the answer to my question on the wording of “throne” in Rev?  This is the 4th time now.  This is my post to you from page 17 of this thread:

Quote  
Very simply, this is what I want to know.

You imply that Matt 28:19 mentions a trinity.  If you are saying only that it mentions three together, and that is your definition of trinity, then I agree.  It is no different than mentioning Abraham, Isaac and Jacob together.

But here is where you get tricky.  You say that while it doesn't prove the trinity doctrine, it proves a trinity is mentioned in the Bible.  So what?  A “trinity” of the sun, moon and stars are also mentioned, in that they are all mentioned together.  So my original question stands:

What do you think Matthew 28:19 proves?  Is it:

a.  That the Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be mentioned together in a sentence, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with you trinity doctrine?   or:

b.  The fact that the three are mentioned together somehow implies that they are equal members of a godhead?  Or at least gives a hint of this godhead.  If your answer is b., tell me how?

Which one is it?

And I'll be waiting for the answer to my other post yesterday in this thread.  You have avoided the “throne” question thrice now.

One last point:  You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority.  Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything?

peace and love,
mike

This is the second time I've bumped this same post for you.  Will you ever answer?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ May 13 2010,08:24)

JustAskin said to WJ: Quote Seeing that you claim I am speaking falsely against you – Please provide your proof or evidence that I have spoken falsely… JustAskin JA, What world are you living in? The burden of proof is on the accuser. Does your deistic god approve of your speaking  witness against a man without proof? thinker

Hi Thinker,

Uh, isn't it WJ who is accusing JA of speaking false?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ May 13 2010,08:38)

David, The distinctions in the verses you give are not cardinal but ordinal.

Hi Thinker,

It doesn't matter how many five dollar words you use, or how much you try to “pretty it up”. All those Scriptures showed Paul talking of two persons. Only one of those persons is God. The other person is one who is not God. It's really just that simple, dude.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ May 13 2010,08:46)

David asked: Quote So my question: If the Spirit were an individual co-equal with the Father and the Son, how is it that these 3 did not include him? David, Your argument from silence is weak. WJ has already provided statements from scripture which do speak of the three together including the Spirit. By your logic we should conclude that Ananias and Sapphira did not lie to the Father or to Jesus because the Spirit alone is mentioned (Acts 5). The narrative says that they lied to the Holy Spirit. When will you guys come up with an argument that has substance? When will you show that Trinitarianism violates the law of non-contradiction? thinker

Thinker,

You refer to what verses 3 and 4 say. Tell me, what does verse 9 say?

peace and love,
mike

[JustAskin]

TT,

Have you not heard of the “Book of Life”

Mike,
It's ok – This is what WJ did when I had a disoute with “Isaiah 1:18”. Is1 accepted the situation but WJ leaped in indignantly and got squashed.
Same here – WJ did not respond to my response but now TT has leaped in indignantly – and you squished him… Thanks.
Scriptures: “And Peter drew his sword and swished off the ear of one of them. But Jesus said 'Put away your sword' and then healed the man” Peter was indignant that Jesus should be approached it the manner that he was and not fight back.

WJ doesn't seem capable of letting this verse go – how many threads are there on this now – including debates?
It seems this – and John 1.1b are his signature verses and, like a mother with a child, he wants to nurture them even though they cannot feed nor grow – Has anyone tried feeding a Mayfly that lives for a day and then expires – so is the “Proof of Trinity by John 1:1b and Matthew 28:19”

This is the reason he challenged me in the debate thinking he, for once, would win one over me. Well, “the Truth has outed” buthe still cannot accept it.

The definition of “The Trinity” has changed significantly from that given in the Creed.

In the Creed The Three are ONE person, ONE GOD, but with Three individual Personalities – all CO-EQUAL -ALL Holding Power and Authority in EQUAL Measure.
Is this borne out on the writings of TT, WJ, Is 1, and others? No, because at various times Jeus:
Is subservient to 'GOD';
DIES(? if Jesus is God and dies or is God and doesn't die as TT claims then there is NO SALVATION and the ultimate sacrifice of a Sinless MAN is still yet to be made…);
Sits at the right hand of 'GOD'
Asks for the Holy Spirit -….?
Sends the Holy Spirit …..
Is NEver called “God the Son” but rather “The Son of God” (Converesly the Father is called “God, the Father” but never “The Father of God” and the Holy Spirit is always called “The [Holy] Spirit [of God]” – draw a picture of this relationship!)

Is filled with the Holy Spirit (WHo else is FILLED with another Person: Whois Filled with God, Filled with Jesus. Who els is POURED OUT.
…. how much more….enough

All this energetic fervour – for the benefit of the Faithfull – lap it up – You will never have a challenge that cannot be responded to with instance Scriptural backing – in the NAME of God. the Father.

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