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Bo,
Jesus was asking to be spared from 'this cup.' I showed you that the cup He was to drink was the same cup that James and John were to drink. Therefore, it was not about being spared from dying for the sins of the whole world. Don't you see this? Or, do you think that James and John also died for the sins of the whole world?Quote
As far as being a different kind than his father obviously Jesus said his father was a greater kind than himJesus never said ANYTHING about 'kind.' Jesus was talking about authority…the Father is greater in authority than Him. Which is even the case between fathers and sons humanly speaking. Fathers and sons, humanly speaking are of the same kind yet one can have greater authority than the other. Are you a different kind than your father, Bo?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2013,04:10) Bo,
Jesus was asking to be spared from 'this cup.' I showed you that the cup He was to drink was the same cup that James and John were to drink. Therefore, it was not about being spared from dying for the sins of the whole world. Don't you see this? Or, do you think that James and John also died for the sins of the whole world?Quote
As far as being a different kind than his father obviously Jesus said his father was a greater kind than himJesus never said ANYTHING about 'kind.' Jesus was talking about authority…the Father is greater in authority than Him. Which is even the case between fathers and sons humanly speaking. Fathers and sons, humanly speaking are of the same kind yet one can have greater authority than the other. Are you a different kind than your father, Bo?
So what “cup” did Jesus have that John and James also have but that Jesus did not want?So you are just saying that “The Father” has a different kind of authority? Is HE also different in that no one can see HIM and live?
What is it about Jesus that you can see him and be perfectly fine
but you cannot see “God” and live?Hi Bo,
you asked:Quote So what “cup” did Jesus have that John and James also have but that Jesus did not want?
I sense that it was torture for believing Jesus was the Son of God which was the 'cup.' Jesus and James died from torture, John didn't. John was tortured by being dipped in hot oil but didn't die as per the legends. He died of old age.Quote So you are just saying that “The Father” has a different kind of authority?
I am saying that the Father held greater authority since He was the Father.Quote Is HE also different in that no one can see HIM and live? What is it about Jesus that you can see him and be perfectly fine
but you cannot see “God” and live?I think that it is safe to say that if you are looking at the Father and in His presence, you have died and gone to heaven where He is and therefore no one can see Him and not have died to get to the presence of His dimension. The Son on the other hand, was seen, not in His full heavenly glory but in a manner which could be seen by men. Angels also take on different forms when appearing before men it seems.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2014,15:06) Hi Bo,
you asked:Quote So what “cup” did Jesus have that John and James also have but that Jesus did not want?
I sense that it was torture for believing Jesus was the Son of God which was the 'cup.' Jesus and James died from torture, John didn't. John was tortured by being dipped in hot oil but didn't die as per the legends. He died of old age.Quote So you are just saying that “The Father” has a different kind of authority?
I am saying that the Father held greater authority since He was the Father.Quote Is HE also different in that no one can see HIM and live? What is it about Jesus that you can see him and be perfectly fine
but you cannot see “God” and live?I think that it is safe to say that if you are looking at the Father and in His presence, you have died and gone to heaven where He is and therefore no one can see Him and not have died to get to the presence of His dimension. The Son on the other hand, was seen, not in His full heavenly glory but in a manner which could be seen by men. Angels also take on different forms when appearing before men it seems.
You have further shown that God is not Jesus nor is Jesus “God”. God is a title in which the most accurate meaning would stand alone if we understand that title to mean “Supreme Being” The Most High cannot be shared or multiple so “GOD” is God bar none@boditharta
Hello Bo,
Sorry for my absence…I have been traveling a bunch this summer. I am glad to be back for a while and participating on HN.
You mentioned that Jesus is not God and God is not Jesus. I know it can seem complicated. In some verses we can see that Jesus is mentioned to be a theos as well as the Father is mentioned to be a theos. In other verses it is mentioned that the Father is the only true theos. So, how to reconcile this is the issue. Christians don’t claim that the Father is the Son, nor the Son is the Father. What is claimed is that there is a fullness to the term “God” that encompasses both the Father and the Son where the Son is the eternal offspring part of the Father.
This video that I watched this morning reminded me of you:
God bless!So good to talk with you again.
Jesus said: John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
When Jesus says “Know you” he is not talking about himself which is why he then adds himself using the word “and” so Jesus calls the being whom he is talking to “The Only True God” and Jesus says he was sent by that One True God. Jesus was truly anointed by that ONE TRUE GOD.
Acts 10:38 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
There you see again “God was with him” if God is with him then certainly he cannot be God but the correct explanation is this:
John 3:34
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.@boditharta
Hi Bo, it is good to talk with you too! Thanks for your patience 🙂You write about knowing the only true God and I think that if you knew the only true God, you would know the offspring part of Him also…the one He sent-Jesus. You deny the offspring part of God and cannot truly know God as “the Father,” imo.
you wrote:
When Jesus says “Know you” he is not talking about himself which is why he then adds himself using the word “and” so Jesus calls the being whom he is talking to “The Only True God” and Jesus says he was sent by that One True God. Jesus was truly anointed by that ONE TRUE GOD.
Also, who thinks Jesus is talking about Himself? That’s obviously not the case here. Jesus realizes He is the offspring PART of the only true God, His Father. Being an offspring of another person would make two persons who are the same type of being…an eternal being in this case. These two eternal beings are given recognition as having dominion over all created things. See Rev 5.
Rev 5:13
And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.Do you know who the Lamb is in that verse that is being recognized as having the dominion, etc. with the one on the throne?
Take care!
Once again so glad to speak with you.
You are saying that the lamb is God but that is not what the scripture says does it? Having dominion does not make someone God, so what I suspect is you have a concept of multiple gods, this I don’t blame you for because many or most christians do such as calling Satan the “god” of this world. The problem with that theological understanding is you have to then accept all “gods” Remember the bible saying “ye are gods”? so with that you get a whole bunch of gods and in so much as it being allegory or metaphor I agree but Jesus sets the record straight by saying that the Father is The Only “True” God, which doesn’t negate others being “gods” it just negates them being the “TRUE GOD” because as it is written There is only one God and that doesn’t mean one idea or concept it means ONE BEING that is ONE LORD and ONE GOD and there is no other BESIDES HIM not even Jesus
Well hello Bo, I hope you are doing well!
How is Jesus as theos different from others who are called theos (other than the Father)?
The disciples prayed to Jesus and none of the others who are called theos (other than the Father).
No other theos (other than the Father) can forgive the sins of mankind.
No other theos (other than the Father) has an omnipresence ability.
No other theos (other than the Father) predicts the future with 100% accuracy.
No other theos appeared in the flesh to become a man who beforehand was a divine being receiving glory from the Father before creation.
No other theos (other than the Father) desires a loving, intimate relationship with us.
No other theos (other than the Father) is perfect love, wisdom and power, full of grace and truth.
No other theos (other than the Father) was involved in creating us.
No other theos (other than the Father) was involved in saving us from all our sin and offering us eternal life.
No other theos (other than the Father) will have dominion over all creation for ever and ever.
No other theos provides the direct access to the Father.
No other theos ranks higher than the Father and Jesus.
No other theos (other than the Father) has unlocked your prison cell, opened the prison door, and invited you to leave your prison…freeing you from the bondage of sin and offering you an abundant, eternal life.
Bo, picture a closed prison cell that entrapped mankind due to the consequences of Adam and Eve choosing to disobey God. Only through belief in and serving the true Messiah, Jesus Christ-the only begotten Son of God as our LORD and Savior do we walk out of that prison cell. When Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead, he paid the price to redeem us back to Himself and His Father, He opened the prison cell door for good-Jesus conquered death. Many choose to remain inside the prison cell as if they don’t know the door is WIDE open. Jesus has sent His followers to tell people that the prison door is OPEN to EVERYONE but walking through the doorway into the abundant, eternal life requires those who believe in Him to make Him LORD of their life together with His Father.
You can ask the same question to either one of them and get the same answer…they are both perfect love and both near to you now. You have a choice to walk out of the prison or not…the door is open to ALL.
Love to you,
Kathi
Peace and Love
Where have you read that the disciples prayed to Jesus? I have never read that what scripture is it?
Regarding your “no other theos” statements you seem to miss the point: Jesus said that there was only ONE TRUE THEOS and The Father said HE is THE ONE GOD and there is NO ONE ELSE besides HIM, God even says this:
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid. Have not I told thee from that time and have declared it? Ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Yea, there is no God. I know not any.”
So we have God and Jesus agreeing but still you disagree, you also in your statement failed to understand that Jesus does not know the future in all things so that means he cannot know the future with 100% accuracy and hence cannot be TRULY GOD as Jesus himself states:
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.So while I understand what you believe I am just examining the possibility that it is not very clear to you what is actually written because when I read Matthew 24:36 I immediately see the fact that Jesus doesn’t know everything, what do you see?Or when the disciples ask him for a certain status Jesus says he does not have the power or authority to grant them what they ask of him:40 But it isn’t for me to say who will sit at my right side and at my left. That is for God to decide.”
How do you interpret this? Is there any circumstance at all in which what I am saying can be demonstrated, because I am interested in knowing what we are trying to do here are we trying to argue/debate to win a point or are we seeking resolution of issues most important to our lives i.e. Worshiping God to the best of our knowledge and ability?
Either way I still enjoy conversing with you, I just want to act accordingly but as for me, my interest is only reaching for the purposes of loving God in the purest form and also you as my neighbor
Lightenup……i know i am sticking my nose in here, but i would just like to say , i see it the same way as bodhitharta does. I also believe that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. PLEASE OPEN YOU MIND TO WHAT HE IS PUTTING FORTH IT IS TRUE on this subject. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
You asked for evidence of Jesus being prayed to:
Acts 7:59
They continued to stone Stephen while he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Also, you asked:
Regarding your “no other theos” statements you seem to miss the point: Jesus said that there was only ONE TRUE THEOS and The Father said HE is THE ONE GOD and there is NO ONE ELSE besides HIM, God even says this:
Isaiah 44:8 (KJ21)8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid. Have not I told thee from that time and have declared it? Ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Yea, there is no God. I know not any.”
Jehovah God is both the God of gods AND the Lord of lords…Jesus is identified as the Lord of lords.
Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.There is no other God besides Jehovah. Christians have one Jehovah God who is both God, the Father and Lord Jesus Christ-two persons.
Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Your next question:
Jesus does not know the future in all things so that means he cannot know the future with 100% accuracy and hence cannot be TRULY GOD as Jesus himself states:
Matthew 24:36
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
So while I understand what you believe I am just examining the possibility that it is not very clear to you what is actually written because when I read Matthew 24:36 I immediately see the fact that Jesus doesn’t know everything, what do you see?
Or when the disciples ask him for a certain status Jesus says he does not have the power or authority to grant them what they ask of him:Show me a prophecy that Jesus spoke that wasn’t true, of course there are some that haven’t come to pass yet.
Anyway, does God already know everything that is going to happen? What about this:
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire–something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.Whether or not God knows and always has known every detail that will ever happen, I don’t know that is even possible, but certainly He knows more of what will happen or could happen than anyone. Besides, in the case of when the Son will return, perhaps He is not told because perfect love trumps knowledge in some cases. Jehovah God is two persons and there are different roles and duties for each person to accomplish their one common purpose. There is also a distinction of authority between them as there would be between a father and son.
Your last question:
Is there any circumstance at all in which what I am saying can be demonstrated, because I am interested in knowing what we are trying to do here are we trying to argue/debate to win a point or are we seeking resolution of issues most important to our lives i.e. Worshiping God to the best of our knowledge and ability?
Either way I still enjoy conversing with you, I just want to act accordingly but as for me, my interest is only reaching for the purposes of loving God in the purest form and also you as my neighbor
I enjoy conversing with you too, Bo. I believe we are going for unity in truth about who the Father and Jesus are and why they are both called theos when there is one Jehovah God. Achieving unity in truth is the Lord’s will. See here:
John 17
20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”@GeneBalthrop
This is a closed discussion between Bodhitharta and myself. Use the private message feature if you need to comment to me, thank you.It’s funny but every time you speak about God you say “He” Who is HE?
“I believe we are going for unity in truth about who the Father and Jesus are”
Yes, you say that they “are” Jehovah God and you agree that there is ONLY ONE JEHOVAH GOD, Right?
WHO “IS” HE? At this point I am asking you quite plainly are you talking about 2 persons both called God? Are you saying there is more than one God in the context of number as the context of purpose is not the issue.
Is there a Higher and a Lower God? Is Jesus equal to The Father in any way?
Jesus said “The Father is greater than I” is that true? Jesus also said “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;”
So if The Father is greater than Jesus and also greater than all, who would then be the Most High?
What is the purpose of the priesthood? Hebrews 7:24
but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the Most High God.So here we see that this Melchezidek was the priest of the Most High God, right?Hebrews 7 says this about Melchezidek……Melchizedek first being by interpretation “king of righteousness,” and after that also king of Salem, which means “king of peace.” Without father, without mother and without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God, he abideth a priest continuallyNow is this Melchezidek God?Now concerning Jesus the scripture says plainly……
Hebrews 7:15
15 And this is yet far more evident when there ariseth another priest according to the similitude of Melchizedek,
and again
Hebrews 7:17For He testifieth: “Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”So Jesus is in the similitude of Melchezidek, after the order of Melchezidek so I ask you is this Melchezidek also God?The unity of the two persons of Jehovah is represented by the singular pronoun “He/Him” in some contexts. The church is like this also. There can be many churches in an community but ultimately they are a part of the one church in which Christ is the Head. The church is even called ‘she’ as in a singular noun, even though it is made up of many small churches. Context and correct understanding will clarify who or what or which one is being spoken about in many cases. Sometimes it is rather obscure.
You asked about Melchizedek…Melchizedek was a “type” of Christ but he was not God, Joshua was a “type” of Christ also, and he was not God either. Both Melchizedek and Johsua had things in common with the coming Savior, Jesus Christ. Moses was also a type of Christ as a deliverer and prophet.
“The unity of the two persons of Jehovah” So Jehovah is more like an office like Christ?
“Melchizedek was a “type” of Christ but he was not God” So Melchezidek and Jesus also share a office/priesthood?
So from what you have explained is it true that you are saying that God is a Priest?
The Perfect High Priest
…9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.So here it is saying that Jesus was designated by God as a High Priest, in this context you are saying God made God a High Priest and so Jesus is the priest of the Father and wouldn’t that make the High Priest the Chief Worshipper? If Jesus is the Chief worshipper head of the entire Church is this for himself to be set up and worshipped? Doesn’t the head of the church lead in worship of God and not themselves? Just think about that for a minute.@bodhitharta
you asked:So Jehovah is more like an office like Christ?
I would say that Jehovah is an always existent entity.
So Melchezidek and Jesus also share a office/priesthood?
No they don’t share an office/priesthood but they both were a king and a priest, a priest in a way that did not come from their lineage. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah according to His flesh, and priests did not come from that tribe. They came from the tribe of Levi, specifically Aaron and his lineage. Of course, Melchizedek existed before Levi was even born.
So here it is saying that Jesus was designated by God as a High Priest, in this context you are saying God made God a High Priest and so Jesus is the priest of the Father and wouldn’t that make the High Priest the Chief Worshipper? If Jesus is the Chief worshipper head of the entire Church is this for himself to be set up and worshipped? Doesn’t the head of the church lead in worship of God and not themselves? Just think about that for a minute.
Jesus, as the Son of Man, worshiped the Father, He didn’t need to be made a priest for that. Also as the Son of man, He became a priest by an oath from the Father after He died, rose again, and ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. His priesthood is a mediatorial role. Jesus is the mediator between us and His Father. He is both God and man, so He can relate to both conditions which makes Him the perfect mediator.
Also, Jesus, as the Son of man, worships the Father and leads in that worship always, He doesn’t worship Himself-but instead He receives worship. Same for the Father, the Father doesn’t worship Himself but instead, receives worship. We are called to worship both.
Okay, so now we are getting somewhere, you agree that Jesus Worships the Father and leads in that Worship.
Do you agree that the Father does not Worship Jesus?
Would you agree that the object of Ultimate Worship stands alone meaning out of your scenario the only one that is given Worship but has no one to Worship is The Father/God, correct?
So Jesus is worshipped but also Worships the Father but not the other way around, correct?
So that would mean there is one god i.e. Jesus that Worships another God but the other God has no one to Worship, what does that indicate to you?
Bo, it indicates that one is the unbegotten God and the other is a part of that unbegotten God as the offspring. You cannot worship the unbegotten God without worshiping the begotten God also.
The Father loves the Son and the worship of His Son is required for true worship of Himself. We will worship in spirit and in TRUTH. It is not truth to deny the Son of divine worship.
This is not what was asked, I clearly said that Jesus WORSHIPS GOD/The Father but the FATHER/God does not WORSHIP the son, I asked you is that correct?
Kings were always and still to this day are worshipped so we are not talking about Jesus being worshipped we are talking about who Jesus Worships and that being not having any other being to Worship. Jesus Worships God in the way I see and Worship God, can you see God in the way Jesus does.
Jesus also told his disciples to worship this way:
New International Version
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.Do you not see here that he is explaining to them that they will now Worship God equally they are no longer his servants he is no longer their lord, they are co-heirs
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