Law

This topic contains 261 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 8 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #122650
     SEEKING 
    Participant
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    Nick wrote – Hi S,
    This is not a competition so as tim suggested take the gloves off.
    Truth is the goal.
    Context

    Acts2
    5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    ……..

    36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

    Is there another message for the gentiles who were a people with no hope?
    Peter had to be shown in acts 10 that they too were to be included and the message is the same for all.
    Do you disagree?

    MY RESPONSE

    Nick,

    You truly are a deceiver and a manipulator.  Here is what YOU said and my response.  Now you think you can change what is in black and white, again.

    Nick,

    Your cleverness has left your stranded unless you rhetoric is meaningless and void.

    Act 2:36  Let all the house of Israel ]herefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Act 2:37  Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” herefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Act 2:37  Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
    Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit  Only has application to Jews?

    Again, your own words responding to the above passages –

    What Peter said was to remind the Jews that the ONE THEY HAD CRUCIFIED is made Lord and Christ

    No meaning for Gentiles, no meaning for forgiveness and receipt of the Spirit,  no necessity for baptism.  Just,
    per Nick – to remind the Jews that the ONE THEY HAD CRUCIFIED is made Lord and Christ

    Forgive me if I do not accept this!

    Quote
    Is there another message for the gentiles who were a people with no hope?

    That is what you said before.  A little memory refreshment:

    What Peter said was to remind the Jews that the ONE THEY HAD CRUCIFIED is made Lord and Christ

    Quote
    Peter had to be shown in acts 10 that they too were to be included and the message is the same for all.
    Do you disagree?

    No disagreement at all.  That is the point I made earlier that YOU denied.

    No meaning for Gentiles, no meaning for forgiveness and receipt of the Spirit,  no necessity for baptism.  Just,per Nick – to remind the Jews that the ONE THEY HAD CRUCIFIED is made Lord and Christ

    That Peter had to be shown later that the message was for
    ALL does not preclude its earlier reality that it was for all.

    I am praying that we will be spared from falling prey to your
    (whatever others have so eloquently identified).

    #122652
     NickHassan 
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    Hi S,
    So if Peter told this to the Jews, who were the only ones present with him at the time, and he specifically reminded them of their role in the death of the saviour, what conclusions are you trying to draw?

    #122684
     KangarooJack 
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    Quote (Gene @ Feb. 23 2009,12:57)
    Thinker…………So the conclusion is that the (ten commandments)themselves are not the subject matter of Paul's discourse, but rather (HOW) They are Kept, “the Love of God fulfills the LAW (the ten commandments)” The Jew were seeking the righteousness of GOD through the operation of  (Law),Forced compliance working through the medium of FEAR,  We seek the fulfillment of the commandments through the operation of GOD Spirit and through the Spirit we fulfill all the Commandments. So Paul could say the gentiles who have (NOT) the LAW (ten commandments), but do the things contained therein Show (the LAW) ten commandments written in their Hearts by the Hand of GOD. So its not a matter of the Commandments being done away with but simply How they are Kept. I believe the ten commandments are eternal and will never be done away with The ten commandments reveal to us the mind and heart of GOD they are Eternal Just like the FATHER is. They operate through the Medium of Love , NOT FEAR. IMO

    love and peace to you brother………………………………gene


    Gene,
    The keeping of the ten commandments cannot justify a man. No man can keep them perfectly. This is Paul's whole point in Romans 7. We are justified freely by God's grace. We were delivered from the law so that we could serve in the newness of the spirit.

    It is all about the role of the law in our justification. The role of the law was merely to show us that we are sinners and to drive us to Christ as the remedy for our sin. It cannot justify us. But we should serve it in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. But even in this we fail.

    thinker

    #122698
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TT,
    We were never under the law.
    Some are saved but not all can claim to have been justified.

    #122702
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Thinker……True i totally agree that we are not (Justified) by the (WORKS) of the Law, We are Justified by the Blood of Christ, that i full well know, but you see my point was in this is that Paul was not saying the ten commandments are done away with , but we Keep them through the Spirit we received from GOD, not through the operation of Law. Justification is one thing, But obedience is quite another and while we can not be Justified by them it still does not remove the fact they must be fulfilled in us. That why Paul said the the Gentiles who have (NOT) the Law (ten commandments) (BUT) DO the things contained in them show the Law (ten commandments) written on their heart by the hand of GOD. This is my point if GOD wrote them on their heart then they were doing them. Paul even said “what shall we sin because we are under Grace (GOD Forbid) He said. Another point is why would GOD write them in our Heart if we were not to keep them. Remember it says LOVE fulfilleth the LAW (ten commandments). The ten commandments are a eternal way to live , it says they are spiritual and Holy and Just. Again what i am saying is not that we are (UNDER LAW) Forced compliance to keep them, but we Keep them through the Holy Spirit given us from GOD, which writes them on our Hearts and minds. So the fact is they are not done away with, Just the way they are Kept has been abolished, not the commandments themselves. Thats why i believe the definite article is important to understand in Paul's writings, because it changes the context of what Paul was saying. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene

    #122710
     wild_olive_branch 
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    You are our letter, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men, making it obvious that you are a letter of Messiah, served by us written not with ink but with the spirit of the living YHWH, not on tablets of stone but on fleshly tablets of the heart.
    2 Cor 3.3

    My son, do not forget my law, and let your heart watch over my commands, for the length of days and long life and peace they add to you.
    Pro 3.1

    #122725
     942767 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2009,11:05)
    Hi TT,
    We were never under the law.
    Some are saved but not all can claim to have been justified.


    Hi Nick:

    We the gentile nations were never under the law, but we all, Jew and gentile, have violated God's eternal law.

    Quote
    Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

    Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

    Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:

    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:

    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    #122733
     KangarooJack 
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    Quote (Gene @ Feb. 24 2009,11:36)
    Thinker……True i totally agree that we are not (Justified) by the (WORKS) of the Law, We are Justified by the Blood of Christ, that i full well know, but you see my point was in this is that Paul was not saying the ten commandments are done away with , but we Keep them through the Spirit we received from GOD, not through the operation of Law. Justification is one thing, But obedience is quite another and while we can not be Justified by them it still does not remove the fact they must be fulfilled in us. That why Paul said the the Gentiles who have (NOT) the Law (ten commandments) (BUT) DO the things contained in them show the Law (ten commandments) written on their heart by the hand of GOD. This is my point if GOD wrote them on their heart then they were doing them. Paul even said “what shall we sin because we are under Grace (GOD Forbid) He said. Another point is why would GOD write them in our Heart if we were not to keep them. Remember it says LOVE fulfilleth the LAW (ten commandments). The ten commandments are a eternal way to live , it says they are spiritual and Holy and Just. Again what i am saying is not that we are (UNDER LAW) Forced compliance to keep them, but we Keep them through the Holy Spirit given us from GOD, which writes them on our Hearts and minds. So the fact is they are not done away with, Just the way they are Kept has been abolished, not the commandments themselves. Thats why i believe the definite article is important to understand in Paul's writings, because it changes the context of what Paul was saying. IMO

    love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene


    Gene,
    You and I have been saying the same thing. So let us form an alliance against the nonsense of Nick and others who think that the keeping of the letter of the law can save us.

    We're on the same page about the law bro!

    thinker

    #122736
     NickHassan 
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    G,
    LAW= Forced compliance??

    Psalm 1:2
    But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

    Psalm 40:8
    I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Psalm 119:70
    Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

    Psalm 119:77
    Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

    Psalm 119:92
    Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

    Psalm 119:174
    I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

    Romans 7:22
    For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

    #122802
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick……….Again your not getting whats being said, we are not saying the Law(ten commandments) Is not good and right, OK, what we are saying is that the way it is Kept was Paul's argument , is it by the way LAW works (by forced compliance ) or by way of the way of the Spirit of GOD which writes the commandments on our hear and mind. This is the (ONLY) point being disused here. No the question of us doing the commandments but How we do them. One way focuses on the performance of the person , the other focuses on the performance of GOD in Us. Remember Paul said by (WORKS) of LAW , no flesh is justified before GOD, What did Paul mean by that statement, Do he not mean So if we define the way Law works we can understand what Paul meant right, So I am saying that Law works by forcing someone to obey through the medium of FEAR, EX 20:20, And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, AND that His (fear) may be before your faces, that ye sin not. This is where the ETERNAL commandments were turned into Law forced compliance through the medium of fear, it began at Mount Sinai . But we read Paul said we have (Not) come the That Mountain to Fear as they did. Its a complete different way, but because there is a different way t fulfill them , doesn't do away with them, this is my point here Nick, When Paul say (THE) Law he really means the ten commandments, but when He says (Law) by itself he is referencing how Law works, and not the ten commandments at all, The definite article changes what Paul is referencing, thats our point Nick.

    love and peace…………………gene

    #122804
     NickHassan 
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    G,
    God has not changed.
    Men assume they are taught and led by the Spirit.

    Then they do not abide in scripture.

    #122816
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick………So now you calling Jesus a liar too, (“Know you not you shall all be taught by GOD”).and again “but if you be (led) by the Spirit you are (Not) under the Law> “Brethren you have no need of a teacher for the Spirit itself teaches you all things”. Nick maybe this is why you haven grown because you are not allowing the Spirit to teach you brother. Something to pray about.

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………gene

    #122817
     NickHassan 
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    G,
    Were these words written to all men?
    Or have you confused your contexts?

    #122846
     TimothyVI 
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    Nick has a good point.
    How much of what Jesus said was for all men, as opposed to just His desciples?
    Maybe there is a reason that having the faith of a mustard seed, we can not move a mountain.
    Maybe “all men”, even believers, were never supposed to receive anything that they asked of the Father.

    Tim

    #122849
     KangarooJack 
    Participant
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    942767 said:

    Quote
    We the gentile nations were never under the law, but we all, Jew and gentile, have violated God's eternal law.

    I agree with Marty on this one. I would add only that the sacrificial death of Christ is the remedy for the jew who disobeyed the written code and also for the gentile who suppressed the revelation of God in nature.

    thinker

    #122850
     KangarooJack 
    Participant
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    Gene said:

    Quote
    Nick……….Again your not getting whats being said, we are not saying the Law(ten commandments) Is not good and right, OK, what we are saying is that the way it is Kept was Paul's argument , is it by the way LAW works (by forced compliance ) or by way of the way of the Spirit of GOD which writes the commandments on our hear and mind.

    Gene,
    Nick don't get it. The new covenant is the age when the law of God is put in the minds and written upon the hearts of His people.

    Quote
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts…. (Heb. 8:10)

    What Nick can't grasp is that we are like fountains now. You don't force a fountain to bring forth water. It just does so naturally. So God's new covenant people are no longer forced to comply. They just bring forth good works like a fountain brings forth water. Nick continues to show that he lacks spiritual understanding.

    thinker

    #122851
     KangarooJack 
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    Nick said:

    Quote
    LAW= Forced compliance??

    Jesus looked forward to the time when men would become like fountains,

    Quote
    He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, “out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:38)

    As I said in a post above, you don't force a fountain to bring forth water. It just does! And God's people are no longer forced to do anything because they are like fountains.

    thinker

    #122860
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 24 2009,23:31)
    Nick has a good point.
    How much of what Jesus said was for all men, as opposed to just His desciples?
    Maybe there is a reason that having the faith of a mustard seed, we can not move a mountain.
    Maybe “all men”, even believers, were never supposed to receive anything that they asked of the Father.

    Tim


    Tim……….I agree not all recived the words, but never the les they were written for all. imo, and where it says if you had faith the size of a grain of mustard seed you could say unto the mountain be plucked up and cast into the sea and it would happen. This statement requires some explanation. First we must identify the Faith we are talking about , is it to just to think hard enough for it to happen , or was he talking about having faith in God enough that (if) God told you to say unto that mountain be plucked up and cast into the sea it would happen.

    No man in a million years could have enough Faith for himself to do that. Remember Jesus said, he (COULD) Say , but the could is a qualified statement, that is to say if GOD wanted that done, as in the case of Moses as well as Jesus, neither of these worked any miracles themselves, God Performed those miracles himself in every case, SO Jesus was saying with even just a little faith in God , this (COULD) happen.

    As far a receiving things, Jesus said to ask and seek and knock, and it will be given you, obviously that is in accordance with the will of GOD. I have in my life received many request from GOD many times. But remember to whom much is given much is required, if little is given little is required.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

    #122861
     GeneBalthrop 
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    thinker …….Amen to that brother, those who are of God and Jesus from them flow fountains of living waters.

    love and peace to you and yours…………………………….gene

    #122864
     Not3in1 
    Participant
    • Topics started 14
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    Quote (Gene @ Feb. 25 2009,03:17)
    I have in my life received many request from GOD many times. But remember to whom much is given much is required, if little is given little is required.


    Pweh!
    Well, I may not have received from God what I have been begging/praying/pleading for….but at least little will be required of me. At least I have that. That's something, at least.
    :;):

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