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Jame Doe wrote:
Quote I am not the one who is confused. You are. There was only one Rock involved, and it was a picture or a type of Christ.
No! YOU are confused! There were TWO rocks involved. There was the Rock at Horeb which Moses struck, and there was the Rock that “went with them.” Paul CLEARLY said that He was speaking about the Rock that “went with them.”God “went with them,”
And Jehovah WENT WITH THEM by day in a pillar of a cloud, to LEAD THEM the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night. Exodus 3:21
God was “the Rock,”
Of the Rock that delivered thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten the God that founded thee. Deuteronomy 32:18
Then Paul identified the Rock that “went with them” as “the Christ.”
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that WENT WITH THEM: and that Rock was the Christ.
Therefore, the Christ is God!!!
Paul was NOT speaking about the rock at Horeb. It's clear!!! But you have been pre-conditioned to think that way.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2012,14:41) KJ, you are not tired of repeating yourself, you are tired of questions that you have no answer to and thus shows the kind of foundation your teaching sits on. Now taking your last point, that God is the rock and Christ is the rock thus Christ is the God that fathered them.
I will list a few points to consider before I show you a verse that shows it was not God himself:
- Jesus is not the Father, yet you are basically saying that the Rock fathered them.
- Moses didn't baptize Israel and the Israelites didn't get wet when they crossed the Red Sea, so you need to understand that not everything is to be taken literally.
- The Israelites were also not literally buried in the cloud.
Now lets have a look at the text in Exodus 14:19 which shows that the one who was with them was indeed the Angel (messenger) of the LORD and by reference of that we can assume that God was with them too.
And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face and stood behind them.In the New Testament we read this account:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So again we see that it was the Angel of the LORD that went with them, and the angel of the LORD is not the LORD himself his he?
Just as Moses saw God face to face and yet there too it actually says it was the Angel of the LORD, do I again need to remind you that Christ himself is the image of the invisible God and the fullness of the deity in bodily form. And again, that God is invisible and no man can see him, thus when we see YHWH, it is an image of him that we see and the image that is the full radiance of God is Jesus Christ his son.
The conclusion here is that God does things through agency. Revelation 1:1 is a perfect example where the message came from God, through Jesus, through the angel, to John, who forwarded it to the church in 7 cities, and was eventually passed on to us.
So you can truly say that the Revelation came from any of these sources, but ultimately God and of course it was ultimately God who was with the Israelites. We even read that God was in Christ Jesus redeeming the world back to himself. Do you not think that God was also in the Angel of the LORD redeeming his people from Egypt. Or was God himself an angel and didn't use agency like he did when Christ walked the Earth?
Hi T8,Isn't that what YOU are saying is the meaning of Isaiah 9:6? …or “No”?
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)Please clarify your position on this; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI am not sure what your question is.
Explain it clearly and simply and imagine that I cannot read your mind.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 27 2013,11:47) God was “the Rock,” Then Paul identified the Rock that “went with them” as “the Christ.”
Christ named Simon “Rock”, didn't he? Do you suppose this means that Peter WAS Jesus? (Or does this kind of nonsensical reasoning only apply to God and His servant, Jesus Christ?)Jack, don't forget that it was an angel of YHWH that went before the Israelites in the pillar of cloud and fire. (Exodus 14:19; 23:20-21) In the OT, the representatives OF God were often called “elohim” and “YHWH”. But it doesn't mean these angels OF YHWH were YHWH Himself, right?
In fact, CAN an angel OF YHWH actually BE YHWH? I say “NO”. What do YOU say?
The early manuscripts of Jude 5:
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
NetBible says that the “Jesus” reading in verse 5 has the strongest support and that the scribes changed it to “Lord.”:
Quote 24 tc ‡ The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Ihsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, “Lord”) or θεός (qeos, “God”) for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for ᾿Ιησοῦς). In addition to the evidence supplied in NA27 for this reading, note also {88 322 323 424c 665 915 2298 eth Cyr Hier Bede}. As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.
https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Jude+1:5The scribes didn't like the early “Jesus” reading in verse 5 and so they changed it to “Lord.”
But the later “Lord” reading of verse 5 still works for the Trinitarian because Jesus Christ is called “Lord” in verse 4.
4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Kangaroo, I see you hopped back here because you found some evidence that Jesus is God because he is a rock.
Was this all you found on your journey?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 29 2013,02:10) The early manuscripts of Jude 5: 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
NetBible says that the “Jesus” reading in verse 5 has the strongest support and that the scribes changed it to “Lord.”
Okay Jack, then let's assume that the particular angel OF YHWH that went ahead of the Israelites in the pillar of cloud and fire was Jesus. Then what? Wouldn't it prove that Jesus was an angel OF YHWH, and not YHWH Himself?I usually agree with the NETBible scholars, but I don't know if I agree with them in this case – for one reason:
Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.To me, this says that God did NOT speak to us through His servant Jesus “in the past”, but only “in these last days”.
What do you think?
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