- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,13:20) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 01 2010,11:05) Why don't you just go on and say Jesus is a GOD like the rest of the Trinitarians and preexistences do, why stand in middle ground Mike.
Gene,In this case, the “middle ground” is the scriptural ground. On one side of me, there's people claiming Jesus is God Almighty Himself, which isn't scriptural.
On the other side of me, there's people claiming “the only begotten god” was never anything more than a human being exactly like the rest of us. This isn't scriptural either.
mike
Hi Mike,You and I are on the same Page here as well! On the middle ground!
Here are the Bible Verses…50% “Son of Man” = “Son of Mary” (Matt.1:18 / Matt:1:20 / Mark 6:3 / Luke 1:35)
50% “Son of God” = “Son of The HolySpirit” (Matt. 1:18 / Matt. 1:20 / Luke 1:35)What does the combination of Eph.4:6 combined with Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35 say to you?
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Can they on both sides reconcile these two Scriptures together?
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Jn.8:14 …Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true…Luke 10:30-37 will help them to understand who [יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh was! (John 8:14)
This is an exegetical parable about [יהשוע המשיח] and His Spiritual neighbor(His Father) [יהוה האלהים]! (John 5:37)Luke 10:30-37 And Jesus answering said, A certain man (Jesus) went down from Jerusalem to Jericho,
and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him
to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to
the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will
repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that showed mercy on him.(Gal.1:1) Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. (Dan.11:34)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2010,00:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,13:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 01 2010,11:05) Then when you are cornered by saying everything was created (BY) Jesus you again change scripture to say through Jesus, So is it (through, by, or for) or all three word work, take you pick right.
Gene,In the last part of Col 1:16, it says TWO words. They can't both be translated as “for”, can they? So ONE of them HAS TO BE either “by” or “through”, right?
YES OR NO GENE.
mike
Mike ……..as i have shown you that word can just as easily be translated as (IN) like it is translated that way ion the all the rest of Col 1….> about twenty times , so which on of the choices you (WANT) to Believe they all can”t be right now can they. So we have about twenty time verses ONE, now which one should we believe. Or can we possible think something got screwed up in translating it?. Think about it MIkepeace and love………………….gene
Okay Gene,This is what it says:
all things were created by him and for him.
Now it's clear that you want one of the words to be “for”, right? Okay. Now you say the other one must be “in”? How does that make sense? “All things were created IN him and For him”?
What does that mean, Gene? Does that mean the universe exists INSIDE of Jesus?
mike
Mike ……….It means this is the Purpose for all things God created it is what the Goal of GOD was by creating everything as he did. So in Christ Jesus this Goal is completed Jesus represents GOD'S beginning Purpose and His end Purpose for all mankind. That s why Jesus said he was the Beginning and the End. He is the summation of GOD'S Purpose, they are all summed up in Jesus the Christ. Why can't you people understand that.
peace and love……………………………..gene
God begins his bold experiment — He brings about a universe that will be the facility for his plan. He creates Adam. Adam fails to accomplish the goal of the experiment. Christ arrives and completes the experiment with complete success. Everything that God wanted to prove to the enemy and everything God wanted to produce with his experiment is fulfilled “IN” Christ and everything that God brought about in his creation was done “FOR” the completion of the perfect human, Christ, and now US.
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 03 2010,01:27) Mike ……….It means this is the Purpose for all things God created it is what the Goal of GOD was by creating everything as he did. So in Christ Jesus this Goal is completed Jesus represents GOD'S beginning Purpose and His end Purpose for all mankind. That s why Jesus said he was the Beginning and the End. He is the summation of GOD'S Purpose, they are all summed up in Jesus the Christ. Why can't you people understand that. peace and love……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,Again, that's just talk brother. Please answer the DIRECT question with a DIRECT answer.
Okay Gene,
This is what it says:
all things were created by him and for him.
Now it's clear that you want one of the words to be “for”, right? Okay. Now you say the other one must be “in”? How does that make sense? “All things were created IN him and For him”?
What does that mean, Gene? Does that mean the universe exists INSIDE of Jesus?
thanks,
mikeQuote (martian @ Sep. 03 2010,03:08) God begins his bold experiment — He brings about a universe that will be the facility for his plan. He creates Adam. Adam fails to accomplish the goal of the experiment. Christ arrives and completes the experiment with complete success. Everything that God wanted to prove to the enemy and everything God wanted to produce with his experiment is fulfilled “IN” Christ and everything that God brought about in his creation was done “FOR” the completion of the perfect human, Christ, and now US.
Yes Martian…..OR…….God begot a Son before the world was created. God then created EVERYTHING else THROUGH that Son. Then when it finally got to the point that animal sacrifices were not enough to “override” mankind's sins, God opted for a human sacrifice. But we know God only wanted the best, unblemished from the flocks and herds for sacrifices. Where on earth could he find such a man?……..they were all tainted.
He decided to send His only begotten Son in the form of a man so he could be sacrificed as a once for all time sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins. That way He could still be able to consider Himself righteous in ever calling us righteous.
mike
MIKE……..So that is just talk right
Eph 1:10….> That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together )IN ONE) (ALL THINGS) IN Christ both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even (IN) him: vers 1:11…> In whom also we have obtained and inheritance, being predestined according to he (PURPOSE) OF HIM (GOD) who works (ALL) things after the counsel of His (GODS) WILL.
Col 1:19………> FOR IT PLEASED THE FATHER THAT (IN) HIM SHOULD ALL FULLNESS DWELL.
cOL 1:17……AND HE (Jesus) is before (in front of) all things, and (IN) him all thing consists.
Mike this was God's Plan all along for mankind. Another Word it is (FOR) the very purpose of God that Jesus was created and Perfected it was GOD'S plan for mankind all along Jesus is this first person to achieve that goal from mankind. That is what all the creation is about. Mike why can't you see that brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15) Hi All, Ready for another one?
John 8:38 (New International Version)
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?
peace and love,
mike
Why are there so many threads that ask the same question?Georg
George,
Simple. Trinity was always the spearhead AntiScripture to attack and blunt.But since Trinity has fallen in this forum, a new enemy has arisen in it's place, to wit, the AntiPreExistents, of which Gene is the head.
And then there are those whocannot resist futile debates…
JA…………..It is not futile if it supports the Work of God by destroying the ANTICHRIST DOCTRINES OF TRINITARIANS AND PREEXISTENCES. Both Doctrine are connected and push the separation of Our (EXACT) Identity with Jesus, one is just as evil as the other. Only one (preexistence) is more subtle then the other but both are wrong. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,13:08) Quote (barley @ Aug. 30 2010,08:39) God is everywhere. The Father's presence is everywhere. He is with you right now. He is with me right now.
Hi barley,I wonder why then that Jesus stated that sentence as a contrast to the ones he was speaking with?
Would they not ALL have “seen things in the Father's presence” if what you say is true?
Why did Jesus single himself out and away from them by saying “the things I have seen in the Father's presence” as opposed to the things they learned from “their fathers”?
mike
Mikeboll,Quote I wonder why then that Jesus stated that sentence as a contrast to the ones he was speaking with? Oh, because that is what God wanted him to say? John 5:30.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Quote Would they not ALL have “seen things in the Father's presence” if what you say is true? What I say is true, you can read it in the scriptures.
God is everywhere present.
He occupies all eternity.
It is available to know God by means of the scriptures.
What part of that is not true?
It is likewise available to know Jesus Christ by means of the scriptures.
Does everyone you know want to learn scripture?
Does everyone you know believe in God?
Does everyone you know want to know God?
Did the people who wanted JC dead care about scripture?
Did they recognize that God is everywhere present and seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness?
Do all people acknowledge that there is a God who created the heaven and the earth and that He is everywhere present?
Quote Why did Jesus single himself out and away from them by saying “the things I have seen in the Father's presence” as opposed to the things they learned from “their fathers”? You should familiarize yourself with the context of John 5:30,
“31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”Why do you think?
How do you read the scripture that is the context of John 8:38?
31 “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”“36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”Once you have read and understand these passages and what they teach, then you will have the answers to your questions. Until then.
barley
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 04 2010,04:17) MIKE……..So that is just talk right Eph 1:10….> That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together )IN ONE) (ALL THINGS) IN Christ both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even (IN) him: vers 1:11…> In whom also we have obtained and inheritance, being predestined according to he (PURPOSE) OF HIM (GOD) who works (ALL) things after the counsel of His (GODS) WILL.
Col 1:19………> FOR IT PLEASED THE FATHER THAT (IN) HIM SHOULD ALL FULLNESS DWELL.
cOL 1:17……AND HE (Jesus) is before (in front of) all things, and (IN) him all thing consists.
Mike this was God's Plan all along for mankind. Another Word it is (FOR) the very purpose of God that Jesus was created and Perfected it was GOD'S plan for mankind all along Jesus is this first person to achieve that goal from mankind. That is what all the creation is about. Mike why can't you see that brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Hi Gene,Okay. Thanks for answering DIRECTLY and with scripture, not just opinions. In your mind, the words should say “all things were created FOR him and IN him”.
I don't agree, but I did find one translation that does,
MSG Col 1:16
For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.I don't think it agrees with your non-preexistent view, but it DOES translate both words as “in”, which is enough for me to move on to another scripture. Othewise it's just you saying, “It should read IN” and me saying, “It should read THROUGH”.
Shall we call it inconclusive?
mike
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 04 2010,21:43) Why are there so many threads that ask the same question? Georg
Hi Georg,Ask your wife……it's all her fault!
Actually, I got tired of these non-preexisters ignoring all the scriptures she was posting in the original Pre-existent thread, so I broke the thread down into a scripture by scripture discussion. I thought it would help, but so far – no converts.
mike
MIke……..Yes let move on, and i have also questioned you moving all this into different threads when it is all about our discussion on PREEXISTENCE of Jesus.
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2010,13:32) I'm sorry barley, but did you actually answer a question somewhere in that post? mike
Mikeboll,I am sorry, too, that you cannot recognize the answers that I gave directly from scripture.
He that has eyes to see and ears to hear would recognize the answers to your questions.
Until you obtain those, II Corinthians 4:4, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
barley
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
