John 8:38

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

Ready for another one?

John 8:38 (New International Version)
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

hi Mike

if this is not enough then they just do not want to believe.

pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)

Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father:
and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

This one is weak for the case of preexistence, as It could
merely mean what he'd seen in the 40 days in the desert.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,13:28)

hi Mike if this is not enough then they just do not want to believe. pierre

Hi Pierre,

I hear you loud and clear, but I have many more to come. Hebrews 1:2, Micah 5:2, John 8:23 and many more.

They can't use made up abstract alternate meanings for all of them, can they?

I guess we'll see.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2010,13:36)

Hi Mike, John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. This one is weak for the case of preexistence, as It could merely mean what he'd seen in the 40 days in the desert. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Hi Ed,

Good point. I thought of that the minute after I posted the topic.  But Jesus always talks of his Father being in heaven, no where else.  And he was led into the wilderness by the holy spirit, but scripture doesn't say that he was ever in the Father's presence there.

We'll see what pops up from the non-preexisters.  I have more scriptures, don't worry.  

peace and love,
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:50)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2010,13:36) Hi Mike, John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. This one is weak for the case of preexistence, as It could merely mean what he'd seen in the 40 days in the desert. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) Hi Ed, Good point. I thought of that the minute after I posted the topic.  But Jesus always talks of his Father being in heaven, no where else.  And he was led into the wilderness by the holy spirit, but scripture doesn't say that he was ever in the Father's presence there. We'll see what pops up from the non-preexisters.  I have more scriptures, don't worry.   peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

Great!
You've Posted some Good ones so far.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)

Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike:

Quote

John 7:16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Quote

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Quote

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,20:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,13:28) hi Mike if this is not enough then they just do not want to believe. pierre Hi Pierre, I hear you loud and clear, but I have many more to come.  Hebrews 1:2, Micah 5:2, John 8:23 and many more. They can't use made up abstract alternate meanings for all of them, can they? I guess we'll see. peace and love, mike

Mike

what make me know that they are not truthful his that they always discuss a scripture quote, but never the impact of the scripture in relation of Gods will.

or turning around the meaning of a word what at the end remains the same.

their intention is clear it is not the truth of God they seek but their own glory.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………..God was PRESENT through the (CHRISTOS) or anointing on Jesus. Jesus spoke words being revealed to Him the same as the prophets did.That scripture is even less supportive of the doctrine of preexistence then you earlier ones were. Don't you believe that GOD was (IN) Him as he plainly said He was. So sure GOD'S Presents was there “HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER ALSO” and again “GOD was (IN) Christ reconciling the World unto HIMSELF”. Does that not show God's presence (IN) Christs Jesus. God is spirit and is Omni-(PRESENT). Even going to another Trinitarian Translation that best fits you argument it still fails. IMO

At least you do acknowledge what ED J , posted as possible.

peace and love ……………………..gene

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,21:15)

Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike

Mike,

There seems to be a lot of threads about Pre-existence and Jesus being God.

Why not start separate Categories for each and have a Pro Category and a Con category. Additionally a Category about the Holy Spirit might help (Person vs Force of YHWH).

Also, if possible, make some “guidelines” such as Scripture must be used or even “logic” to debate the Scriptural points given; responses to the questions first asked and then other questions can be asked and not avoidance.

David

[martian]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 21 2010,03:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,21:15) Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike Mike, There seems to be a lot of threads about Pre-existence and Jesus being God. Why not start separate Categories for each and have a Pro Category and a Con category.  Additionally a Category about the Holy Spirit might help (Person vs Force of YHWH). Also, if possible, make some “guidelines” such as Scripture must be used or even “logic” to debate the Scriptural points given; responses to the questions first asked and then other questions can be asked and not avoidance. David

I have asked for principles to prove how aer conclusions are reached. I was told by Mike it is none of my business!

[GeneBalthrop]

martian…………Mike i think is truly struggling with his position on Preexistence and is considering all we are posting and hope fully is praying for GOD to guide His mind into the truth. I think he is a decent person brother he just has been indoctrinated as T8 and Irene have and that is hard to overcome.

peace and love to you and your martian…………………………gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,03:01)

martian…………Mike i think is truly struggling with his position on Preexistence and is considering all we are posting and hope fully is praying for GOD to guide His mind into the truth. I think he is a decent person brother he just has been indoctrinated as T8 and Irene have and that is hard to overcome. peace and love to you and your martian…………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Just because John 8:38 presents a weak case for preexistence,
there are MANY others that do present a strong case for preexistence!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,03:33)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,03:01) martian…………Mike i think is truly struggling with his position on Preexistence and is considering all we are posting and hope fully is praying for GOD to guide His mind into the truth. I think he is a decent person brother he just has been indoctrinated as T8 and Irene have and that is hard to overcome. peace and love to you and your martian…………………………gene Hi Gene, Just because John 8:38 presents a weak case for preexistence, there are MANY others that do present a strong case for preexistence! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

However, every single scripture that Mike has posted has been shown to be weak on preexistence. He will not admit it but he has lost every debate on the matter.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)

Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike

First of all the NIV is notorious for it's bad translation. It is little better then the Living Bible. It is more of a paraphrase then a translation.
The Greek says this. –
What I have seen beside the father I am speaking; and you therefore What you heard beside the father you are doing.
There is no indication of being in the presence of the Father in some other place.
Secondly, it is a totally Greek concept to think that we must be in heaven to be in the father's presence. If you are not in the Father's presence while on this Earth then two things are true.
1. God is not omnipresent
2. You have a lot more problems then a debate. We should all be in the presence of the Father as much as possible.

[Ed J]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,03:49)

If you are not in the Father's presence while on this Earth then two things are true. 1. God is not omnipresent 2. You have a lot more problems then a debate. We should all be in the presence of the Father as much as possible.

Hi Martian,

I hope all here would agree with this!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,15:51)

Mike what make me know that they are not truthful his that they always discuss a scripture quote, but never the impact of the scripture in relation of Gods will. or turning around the meaning of a word what at the end remains the same. their intention is clear it is not the truth of God they seek but their own glory. Pierre

I'm not sure it is their own glory they seek, but it is clear that it their own wishes for Christ to be exactly like them that makes them ignore such plain scriptures, and the Word of God as a whole.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 21 2010,03:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,21:15) Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike Mike, There seems to be a lot of threads about Pre-existence and Jesus being God. Why not start separate Categories for each and have a Pro Category and a Con category.  Additionally a Category about the Holy Spirit might help (Person vs Force of YHWH). Also, if possible, make some “guidelines” such as Scripture must be used or even “logic” to debate the Scriptural points given; responses to the questions first asked and then other questions can be asked and not avoidance. David

In a prefect world David.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2010,01:17)

Mike………..God was PRESENT through the (CHRISTOS) or anointing on Jesus. Jesus spoke words being revealed to Him the same as the prophets did.

So then you should easily able to show me the scriptures where any of the prophets said they speak what they had seen in the Father's presence, right?

Let's have them, please.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:17)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15) Hi All, Ready for another one? John 8:38 (New International Version) 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”? peace and love, mike Hi Mike: Quote John 7:16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Quote John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. Quote John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

Once again, you list scriptures with no explanation. I don't see any of these scriptures implying that Jesus didn't pre-exsist.

One at a time with your interpretation of what it means, please.

peace and love,
mike

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