John 8:38

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  • #212981
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike

    #212984
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Mike

    if this is not enough then they just do not want to believe.

    pierre

    #212986
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father:
    and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    This one is weak for the case of preexistence, as It could
    merely mean what he'd seen in the 40 days in the desert.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #212989
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,13:28)
    hi Mike

    if this is not enough then they just do not want to believe.

    pierre


    Hi Pierre,

    I hear you loud and clear, but I have many more to come. Hebrews 1:2, Micah 5:2, John 8:23 and many more.

    They can't use made up abstract alternate meanings for all of them, can they?

    I guess we'll see.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #212990
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2010,13:36)
    Hi Mike,

    John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father:
    and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    This one is weak for the case of preexistence, as It could
    merely mean what he'd seen in the 40 days in the desert.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)


    Hi Ed,

    Good point. I thought of that the minute after I posted the topic.  But Jesus always talks of his Father being in heaven, no where else.  And he was led into the wilderness by the holy spirit, but scripture doesn't say that he was ever in the Father's presence there.

    We'll see what pops up from the non-preexisters.  I have more scriptures, don't worry.  :)

    peace and love,
    mike

    #212991
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:50)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2010,13:36)
    Hi Mike,

    John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father:
    and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    This one is weak for the case of preexistence, as It could
    merely mean what he'd seen in the 40 days in the desert.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)


    Hi Ed,

    Good point. I thought of that the minute after I posted the topic.  But Jesus always talks of his Father being in heaven, no where else.  And he was led into the wilderness by the holy spirit, but scripture doesn't say that he was ever in the Father's presence there.

    We'll see what pops up from the non-preexisters.  I have more scriptures, don't worry.  :)

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    Great!
    You've Posted some Good ones so far.

    God bless
    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #212996
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike:

    Quote
    John 7:16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

    17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    Quote
    John 8:26
    I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    Quote
    John 14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #213095
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,20:43)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,13:28)
    hi Mike

    if this is not enough then they just do not want to believe.

    pierre


    Hi Pierre,

    I hear you loud and clear, but I have many more to come.  Hebrews 1:2, Micah 5:2, John 8:23 and many more.

    They can't use made up abstract alternate meanings for all of them, can they?

    I guess we'll see.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike

    what make me know that they are not truthful his that they always discuss a scripture quote, but never the impact of the scripture in relation of Gods will.

    or turning around the meaning of a word what at the end remains the same.

    their intention is clear it is not the truth of God they seek but their own glory.

    Pierre

    #213113
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………..God was PRESENT through the (CHRISTOS) or anointing on Jesus. Jesus spoke words being revealed to Him the same as the prophets did.That scripture is even less supportive of the doctrine of preexistence then you earlier ones were. Don't you believe that GOD was (IN) Him as he plainly said He was. So sure GOD'S Presents was there “HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER ALSO” and again “GOD was (IN) Christ reconciling the World unto HIMSELF”. Does that not show God's presence (IN) Christs Jesus. God is spirit and is Omni-(PRESENT). Even going to another Trinitarian Translation that best fits you argument it still fails. IMO

    At least you do acknowledge what ED J , posted as possible.

    peace and love ……………………..gene

    #213123
    davidbfun
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,21:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,

    There seems to be a lot of threads about Pre-existence and Jesus being God.

    Why not start separate Categories for each and have a Pro Category and a Con category. Additionally a Category about the Holy Spirit might help (Person vs Force of YHWH).

    Also, if possible, make some “guidelines” such as Scripture must be used or even “logic” to debate the Scriptural points given; responses to the questions first asked and then other questions can be asked and not avoidance.

    David

    #213140
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 21 2010,03:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,21:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,

    There seems to be a lot of threads about Pre-existence and Jesus being God.

    Why not start separate Categories for each and have a Pro Category and a Con category.  Additionally a Category about the Holy Spirit might help (Person vs Force of YHWH).

    Also, if possible, make some “guidelines” such as Scripture must be used or even “logic” to debate the Scriptural points given; responses to the questions first asked and then other questions can be asked and not avoidance.

    David


    I have asked for principles to prove how aer conclusions are reached. I was told by Mike it is none of my business!

    #213228
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    martian…………Mike i think is truly struggling with his position on Preexistence and is considering all we are posting and hope fully is praying for GOD to guide His mind into the truth. I think he is a decent person brother he just has been indoctrinated as T8 and Irene have and that is hard to overcome.

    peace and love to you and your martian…………………………gene

    #213231
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,03:01)
    martian…………Mike i think is truly struggling with his position on Preexistence and is considering all we are posting and hope fully is praying for GOD to guide His mind into the truth. I think he is a decent person brother he just has been indoctrinated as T8 and Irene have and that is hard to overcome.

    peace and love to you and your martian…………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Just because John 8:38 presents a weak case for preexistence,
    there are MANY others that do present a strong case for preexistence!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #213232
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2010,03:33)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2010,03:01)
    martian…………Mike i think is truly struggling with his position on Preexistence and is considering all we are posting and hope fully is praying for GOD to guide His mind into the truth. I think he is a decent person brother he just has been indoctrinated as T8 and Irene have and that is hard to overcome.

    peace and love to you and your martian…………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Just because John 8:38 presents a weak case for preexistence,
    there are MANY others that do present a strong case for preexistence!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    However, every single scripture that Mike has posted has been shown to be weak on preexistence. He will not admit it but he has lost every debate on the matter.

    #213234
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    First of all the NIV is notorious for it's bad translation. It is little better then the Living Bible. It is more of a paraphrase then a translation.
    The Greek says this. –
    What I have seen beside the father I am speaking; and you therefore What you heard beside the father you are doing.
    There is no indication of being in the presence of the Father in some other place.
    Secondly, it is a totally Greek concept to think that we must be in heaven to be in the father's presence. If you are not in the Father's presence while on this Earth then two things are true.
    1. God is not omnipresent
    2. You have a lot more problems then a debate. We should all be in the presence of the Father as much as possible.

    #213237
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ Aug. 22 2010,03:49)
    If you are not in the Father's presence while on this Earth then two things are true.

    1. God is not omnipresent
    2. You have a lot more problems then a debate. We should all be in the presence of the Father as much as possible.


    Hi Martian,

    I hope all here would agree with this!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #213267
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2010,15:51)
    Mike

    what make me know that they are not truthful his that they always discuss a scripture quote, but never the impact of the scripture in relation of Gods will.

    or turning around the meaning of a word what at the end remains the same.

    their intention is clear it is not the truth of God they seek but their own glory.

    Pierre


    I'm not sure it is their own glory they seek, but it is clear that it their own wishes for Christ to be exactly like them that makes them ignore such plain scriptures, and the Word of God as a whole.

    mike

    #213269
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 21 2010,03:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,21:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Mike,

    There seems to be a lot of threads about Pre-existence and Jesus being God.

    Why not start separate Categories for each and have a Pro Category and a Con category.  Additionally a Category about the Holy Spirit might help (Person vs Force of YHWH).

    Also, if possible, make some “guidelines” such as Scripture must be used or even “logic” to debate the Scriptural points given; responses to the questions first asked and then other questions can be asked and not avoidance.

    David


    In a prefect world David. :D

    mike

    #213270
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2010,01:17)
    Mike………..God was PRESENT through the (CHRISTOS) or anointing on Jesus. Jesus spoke words being revealed to Him the same as the prophets did.


    So then you should easily able to show me the scriptures where any of the prophets said they speak what they had seen in the Father's presence, right?

    Let's have them, please.

    mike

    #213271
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:15)
    Hi All,

    Ready for another one?

    John 8:38 (New International Version)
    38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

    Does this not clearly say that the person Jesus had “seen” things “in the Father's presence”?

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi Mike:

    Quote
    John 7:16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

    17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    Quote
    John 8:26
    I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    Quote
    John 14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi Marty,

    Once again, you list scriptures with no explanation. I don't see any of these scriptures implying that Jesus didn't pre-exsist.

    One at a time with your interpretation of what it means, please.

    peace and love,
    mike

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