John 6:62

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 06 2010,08:44)

One more thing — When talking about us making decisions based on the same criteria as Christ so that we could develop the same character as him. Mike compares it to 3 Y/O's imitating monkeys. I told this to a pastor friend and he was aghast that anyone claiming to be Christian could say such a thing. This is so totally insulting to the mission and the person of Christ as to actually defy description. If any on here need worry about being insulting and nasty it should be Mike. He will do and say anything to support his indoctrination. This is why I left. Not because I could not honestly counter his arguments but because people that defy and insult my brother Jesus and his mission are not due or deserve any respect or consideration.

Hi Martian,

I'm truly sorry that you are such an angry man.  I couldn't rightly say how much of that anger stems from your health issues, because I didn't know you before you were sick.

The only thing at all you need to deal with in this thread is:

In what sense was Jesus, the PERSON who said the words in John 6:62, in the place to which he ascended……. BEFORE?  In other words, was he there “before” as the person who made this statement, or as a “thought in God's mind”?

And how will you scripturally support your opinion?

Please refrain from lying about what I've said.  I did NOT “compare” following Christ to learning from monkeys.  I explained that a kid could learn to climb a tree from watching monkeys even though that kid was a human being.  This observation was to show you that one being doesn't have to be “exactly the same” as another being in order to learn from that other being.  I am learning just fine from Jesus despite the fact that he lived in heaven before coming to earth as a man.

The next time you lie about me, I will give you a block. Not because it's against me, but because this is supposed to be a Christian site, and lying is not Christian behavior. Don't you agree?

please deal with the bolded part above,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 06 2010,01:43)

Mike………….Have you become a false accuser of the brethren as others also, Show where I have posted something that was not scriptural, because i don't agree with you on your preconceived dogmas does not mean i am posting any mind boggling things. It is mind boggling to you perhaps maybe,  but not to others. IMO

Hi Gene,

I feel bad I made that post at all.  I should not have taken pot shots at you guys.  I was “posting angry” because of something Martian posted.  I'm sorry to you and Marty and Kerwin.

I hope you can understand how frustrating this is for me.  The scripture plainly says “What if you see ME ascend to where I was before?”

How can any sane person understand that to mean Jesus was saying that HE, the person, would ascend to where “I was a thought in God's mind” before?

And as far as “mind boggling”,  as if the above isn't enough, what about your former understanding of Phil 2?  Do you still think Paul was saying that Jesus is NOW existing in the form of God?

How about the Word of God?  You still deny it is Jesus against the scriptures and logic that says God didn't just speak ONE WORD ONLY throughout the Bible.  Wouldn't it be “the WORDS of God”?

How about “the Spirit is Intellect”?  I'm sorry brother, but you are out there!

Anyway, I'm sorry I made the post about you guys.  It wasn't very Christian of me.  Please forgive me.

And please don't take this thread off of John 6:62 to discuss your other beliefs.  We can do that elswhere.  Instead, just answer how the person Jesus could say he would ascend to where HE (the person Jesus) was before without it meaning HE (the person Jesus) was in heaven before.

peace and love,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2010,05:25)

Hey Dennison, Thanks! ……..I think….   mike

Np!

[SimplyForgiven]

im very sure that Martian responded to my post,
and questioned my salvation….. yet i cant find his response anywhere…..

I know he posted something, i was checking it on my touchscreen phone..
now im online and i dont see it anywhere

was it deleted?
or wrong thread?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 06 2010,16:16)

im very sure that Martian responded to my post, and questioned my salvation….. yet i cant find his response anywhere….. I know he posted something, i was checking it on my touchscreen phone.. now im online and i dont see it anywhere was it deleted? or wrong thread?

I didn't see it anywhere Dennison. Hmmm……

mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2010,11:56)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 06 2010,08:44) One more thing — When talking about us making decisions based on the same criteria as Christ so that we could develop the same character as him. Mike compares it to 3 Y/O's imitating monkeys. I told this to a pastor friend and he was aghast that anyone claiming to be Christian could say such a thing. This is so totally insulting to the mission and the person of Christ as to actually defy description. If any on here need worry about being insulting and nasty it should be Mike. He will do and say anything to support his indoctrination. This is why I left. Not because I could not honestly counter his arguments but because people that defy and insult my brother Jesus and his mission are not due or deserve any respect or consideration. Hi Martian, I'm truly sorry that you are such an angry man.  I couldn't rightly say how much of that anger stems from your health issues, because I didn't know you before you were sick. The only thing at all you need to deal with in this thread is: In what sense was Jesus, the PERSON who said the words in John 6:62, in the place to which he ascended……. BEFORE?  In other words, was he there “before” as the person who made this statement, or as a “thought in God's mind”? And how will you scripturally support your opinion? Please refrain from lying about what I've said.  I did NOT “compare” following Christ to learning from monkeys.  I explained that a kid could learn to climb a tree from watching monkeys even though that kid was a human being.  This observation was to show you that one being doesn't have to be “exactly the same” as another being in order to learn from that other being.  I am learning just fine from Jesus despite the fact that he lived in heaven before coming to earth as a man. The next time you lie about me, I will give you a block.  Not because it's against me, but because this is supposed to be a Christian site, and lying is not Christian behavior.  Don't you agree?   please deal with the bolded part above, mike

You say-
I'm truly sorry that you are such an angry man. I couldn't rightly say how much of that anger stems from your health issues, because I didn't know you before you were sick.
Reply –

Was Christ angry when he threw out the money changers? Was Christ angry when he called the pharasees a brood of snakes? It is not a sin to be angry when a person (namely you) disdains the mission of Christ and misrepresents the character of God.
You say –
Please refrain from lying about what I've said. I did NOT “compare” following Christ to learning from monkeys. I explained that a kid could learn to climb a tree from watching monkeys even though that kid was a human being. This observation was to show you that one being doesn't have to be “exactly the same” as another being in order to learn from that other being.
Reply-
Wrong again. The context was the body learning from Christ’s decisions so that we could make choices in the same manner. That is what an example means. Does 3 y/os imitating monkeys have anything to do with that? Can a human child learn character from a monkey? Can a human learn Godliness from a monkey? Do monkeys and humans make choices on the same criteria? Shut up your silliness.

You say-
I am learning just fine from Jesus despite the fact that he lived in heaven before coming to earth as a man.

Reply- LOL
You say-
The next time you lie about me, I will give you a block. Not because it's against me, but because this is supposed to be a Christian site, and lying is not Christian behavior. Don't you agree?
Reply-
Ooohhhh I am so scared of your block. You talk about it being a Christian site yet your doctrine that you are so hip to prove precludes the possibility of being followers of Christ.

I noticed you did not respond to my other posts about your study methods.
Lest we forget!!!!!
Lest we forget the caliber of those who post preexistence dogma.
On page four I ask mike this.

Hey Mike,
What process did you go through to determine if your conclusions about this verse were correct? After all it is not an original text from the first century and you are not living in that culture. How did you do it?

Your response on page 5?
Look, I don't mean to be rude, but how I come by my understanding of a particular scripture is my business.

Me-
Yep there is honest discourse if I ever saw it. LOL

You go on to say –
I research the Greek or Hebrew words to the extent necessary. Now I read the words in John 6:62 just as they are written, and I even checked for alternate definitions to be sure.
In response to your stating that you check the Greek and Hebrew I posted this.
You say-
“This one was the one about whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is greater than I am, 42 because he existed before me.’”

We know John was born 6 months BEFORE Jesus was born. And Elizabeth was impregnated BEFORE Mary was, so in what sense did John think Jesus “existed before him”?

Reply-
Following your conclusion to it’s end we get this–
So according to your interpretation, Jesus is greater then John because he existed before him. So something from Christ’s preexistence made him greater then John. Something that was carried on into his earthly life.
Christ is greater then John due to his preexistence.
Funny thing is in other posts you said all Christ had that other men did not have was knowledge and that it would not effect our ability to follow him.
We cannot do greater things then Christ because part of his greatness was due to a preexistence we cannot acquire.

The Greek word for existed is eilmio and means –
to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
It is translated in the following ways –
NAS (249) accompanied, 1; accompany, 2; am, 138; amount, 1; amounts, 1; appear, 1; asserted, 1; become, 5; been, 1; being, 26; belong, 3; belonged, 1; belonging, 1; belongs, 4; bring, 1; came, 1; come, 5; consist, 1; crave, 1; depends, 1; do, 1; done, 1; exist, 3; existed, 1; falls, 1; found, 1; had, 8; happen, 4; have, 2; have come, 1; lived, 1; mean, 2; means, 7; meant, 2; originate, 1; owns, 1; remain, 3; remained, 1; rest, 1; sided, 1; stayed, 2; themselves, 1; there, 6; turn, 1;

The Greek word for before is prwÜtov and means –
1. first in time or place
a. in any succession of things or persons
2. first in rank
a. influence, honour
b. chief
c. principal
3. first, at the first

And is translated in the NAS 128; first importance, 1; first man, 1; first of all, 2; first one, 1; first things, 1; first time, 1; foremost, 5; leading, 2; leading man, 1; leading men, 5; outer, 3; previous, 1;

So this verse could be translated He existed first in time
-OR-
He is to be first in influence and honour, the chief

At the very least we know that Mikes proof text is not conclusive evidence of a preexistence.
So how do you determine which translation is correct?
Some like Mike determine which to use because of a predetermined doctrine he is hot to prove.
I determine which one by context.
15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This w
as He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”
27″It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.”
Obviously the context is about Christ being first in rank. That is how you determine which of the various meanings of the Greek words are appropriate.
This also ties in nicely with all the scriptures that call Christ preeminent over all creation including all men.

Mike obviously even broke the 1 or 2 principles he said he upheld. Is this honest?
You folks want to see another step of dishonesty in Mike’s methods?
John 6:62 “What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before.
The question is where was he before? An honest scholar will admit that the verse does not say. Mike assumes based on his doctrine that Christ is talking about heaven. In other words he reads his doctrine into the verse. It is another example of mike’s dishonest methods. Mikes assumes a preexistent Christ and then reads it into the verse.

Quote –
Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually “inside” Yahweh? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed “inside” of Yahweh in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Mic 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). While it is difficult to perceive of the Almighty having an “inside,” that is what the text is saying. Yet, this, too, is figurative and equates with the mind of Yahweh.
There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am not suggesting the Almighty has “loins.” Nor am I suggesting Yahshua was conceived in any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through procreation/copulation). Yahweh is Spirit. His Holy Spirit “came upon” Miriam and miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male child in her womb.
Lu 1:35 says, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from [Yahweh] . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from [Yahweh].” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh (in the sense of future lineage) until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then created in Miriam's egg a 100% man. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without her egg being involved is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.
http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/preexist%3f.html

[martian]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 06 2010,16:16)

im very sure that Martian responded to my post, and questioned my salvation….. yet i cant find his response anywhere….. I know he posted something, i was checking it on my touchscreen phone.. now im online and i dont see it anywhere was it deleted? or wrong thread?

The only post I made concerning that subject is that anyone that does not believe in the physical resurrection of Christ cannot be saved.

[JustAskin]

Mike,

Did God send “Jesus” into the word? (John 17:3)?

Or did the one that God send become known as/was named “Jesus” at his birth as man in the flesh?

Brother, if it helps, I support most of your concerning Jesus – Pre-and post…

Is it my turn to ask you to 'relax'? “Illegitimis non carborundum” in other words?

[mikeboll64]

Hi Martian,

You said:

Quote

Was Christ angry when he threw out the money changers? Was Christ angry when he called the pharasees a brood of snakes? It is not a sin to be angry when a person (namely you) disdains the mission of Christ and misrepresents the character of God.

I have to admit……you got me there.  In fact, not only Jesus, but also his God Jehovah got angry from time to time.  I'm still wondering, however, where your theory of “we have to be exactly like Christ to follow what he taught” has any scriptural backing.  

And 3 year old humans who can learn to climb trees from watching monkeys should be enough for you to see that one being doesn't have to be exactly like another in order to learn from that other being.  Do you understand this very simple, logical point……..or do I have to come up with some of the other things in history that man has learned from animals and visa-versa?  Have you learned anything from God, Martian?  Are you exactly like Him?  

You said:

Quote

Ooohhhh I am so scared of your block. You talk about it being a Christian site yet your doctrine that you are so hip to prove precludes the possibility of being followers of Christ.

Did you say “hip”?  Are we in a 60's flashback?     Again, I learn from God's teachings although I'm not God.  Why can't I learn from Jesus' teachings although he isn't exactly like me?  How about a real answer, instead of insults and insistences that we MUST be the same as Jesus to learn from him?  WHY MUST WE, MARTIAN?

You said:

Quote

I noticed you did not respond to my other posts about your study methods. Lest we forget!!!!! Lest we forget the caliber of those who post preexistence dogma.

I did respond.  I told you it was none of your business, remember?     If you're asking if I go online and read the reasons of mere men, like Juan Whats'-His-Name, why the scriptures that talk of Jesus' pre-existence are wrong……..then no.  But does that really matter?  The bottom line is that I can easily refute your views with some research, some sound, logical reasoning, AND THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES.

Do you see that last part?  You should try more of that and less of Juan What's-His-Name.

And speaking of noticing how people don't respond to your points……..you have still failed to answer this very simple question:

In what sense was Jesus, the PERSON who said the words in John 6:62, in the place to which he ascended……. BEFORE?  In other words, was he there “before” as the person who made this statement, or as a “thought in God's mind”?

peace and love,
mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,07:49)

Hi Martian, You said: Quote Was Christ angry when he threw out the money changers? Was Christ angry when he called the pharasees a brood of snakes? It is not a sin to be angry when a person (namely you) disdains the mission of Christ and misrepresents the character of God. I have to admit……you got me there.  In fact, not only Jesus, but also his God Jehovah got angry from time to time.  I'm still wondering, however, where your theory of “we have to be exactly like Christ to follow what he taught” has any scriptural backing.   And 3 year old humans who can learn to climb trees from watching monkeys should be enough for you to see that one being doesn't have to be exactly like another in order to learn from that other being.  Do you understand this very simple, logical point……..or do I have to come up with some of the other things in history that man has learned from animals and visa-versa?  Have you learned anything from God, Martian?  Are you exactly like Him?   You said: Quote Ooohhhh I am so scared of your block. You talk about it being a Christian site yet your doctrine that you are so hip to prove precludes the possibility of being followers of Christ. Did you say “hip”?  Are we in a 60's flashback?     Again, I learn from God's teachings although I'm not God.  Why can't I learn from Jesus' teachings although he isn't exactly like me?  How about a real answer, instead of insults and insistences that we MUST be the same as Jesus to learn from him?  WHY MUST WE, MARTIAN? You said: Quote I noticed you did not respond to my other posts about your study methods. Lest we forget!!!!! Lest we forget the caliber of those who post preexistence dogma. I did respond.  I told you it was none of your business, remember?     If you're asking if I go online and read the reasons of mere men, like Juan Whats'-His-Name, why the scriptures that talk of Jesus' pre-existence are wrong……..then no.  But does that really matter?  The bottom line is that I can easily refute your views with some research, some sound, logical reasoning, AND THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES. Do you see that last part?  You should try more of that and less of Juan What's-His-Name. And speaking of noticing how people don't respond to your points……..you have still failed to answer this very simple question: In what sense was Jesus, the PERSON who said the words in John 6:62, in the place to which he ascended……. BEFORE?  In other words, was he there “before” as the person who made this statement, or as a “thought in God's mind”? peace and love, mike

You say-

And 3 year old humans who can learn to climb trees from watching monkeys should be enough for you to see that one being doesn't have to be exactly like another in order to learn from that other being. Do you understand this very simple, logical point……..or do I have to come up with some of the other things in history that man has learned from animals and visa-versa? Have you learned anything from God, Martian? Are you exactly like Him?

Reply-
Well here is the crux of the matter. Can a 3 y/o learn to make choices in the same manner as a monkey makes them? Can a 3 y/o learn character from a monkey? Can a 3 y/o learn to be like the monkey in motives and intentions of the monkey?
The difference between your way and mine is that you want to simply act like Christ and I want to actually be like Christ. I do not want to do things just from obedience like a child. I want to have the same motives and character as Christ.
If God gave me a gift of healing, would I heal people so I can build a big deal ministry and brag that I had more in my meeting then the other preacher had in his or do I actually care in my being for those that are afflicted. Both of us have healing power but one works for God’s kingdom and the other works for his own. IT IS ABOUT CHARACTER. You cannot build the character of Christ unless you travel the path that Christ traveled. That means the same starting place.

You say-
Why can't I learn from Jesus' teachings although he isn't exactly like me? How about a real answer, instead of insults and insistences that we MUST be the same as Jesus to learn from him? WHY MUST WE, MARTIAN?

Reply-
Christian means followers of Christ. We follow on the same path that he blazed for us. You can learn to act like Christ. Scripture talks of those. Lord Lord did we not prophecy in your name and cast out devils and heal the sick. And the lord says to them depart from me you doers of iniquity, I never knew you.
They had a form of Godliness but denied the power thereof. The power to change the heart and character of the person. That power is developed and yielded to on the journey that Christ took. Now if we travel on a different journey (no matter the good intentions) that is not based on the same criteria for decision making and the same information then we cannot become like Christ. We will be simple actors in a world that demands reality.

You have admitted that Christ had knowledge (due to his preexistence) that was/is not available to us. A human being makes choices based on the knowledge we have accumulated over our years. A three y/o might make a bad choice about touching a hot stove, but if he acquires the knowledge that he can get burnt, he will make safer choices from then on. Christ made choices based on the knowledge that he possessed. We are to follow Christ yet we cannot make choices based on the same knowledge, because we do not have it. How do we follow him in that? How can we travel the same path without the same knowledge?

You say-
I did respond. I told you it was none of your business, remember? If you're asking if I go online and read the reasons of mere men, like Juan Whats'-His-Name, why the scriptures that talk of Jesus' pre-existence are wrong……..then no. But does that really matter? The bottom line is that I can easily refute your views with some research, some sound, logical reasoning, AND THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES.

Do you see that last part? You should try more of that and less of Juan What's-His-Name.

Reply-
There you go with the mere men response. Are you something special that we should listen to you a mere man? Are you a Greek or Hebrew expert? Do you rely on the reference works written by mere men? Do you rely on the translators of English Bibles that are mere men? It is very curious that when I use a reference it is from “mere men” and when you use one it somehow takes on some H
oly status? How dishonest is that?
Do you really think that it is reasonable to post something and expect us to just fall on our faces and believe it when you do not post the manner in which you came to your conclusions? Are we supposed to bow to your wisdom because you say so? It is the height of arrogance for you to get on here and say that we should believe your conclusions when you say the process that you went through to get that conclusion is none of our business.
I have been open and honest with the way I come to my conclusions on particular scriptures. You have hid behind dark innuendo and in closets about yours. Until you decide to become an honest researcher, nothing you say can be taken as more then a personal opinion with no sound or solid back up.
You say you use the scriptures themselves. That is not true. You use some mere mans interpretation into English. I reposted in the last post to you my research in the Greek words themselves. (The Real Scriptures) and pointed out other possible interpretations. I then confirmed that interpretation through the context. You read the verse fed it through your doctrine and assumed an interpretation. That is dishonest and certainly not sound or logical.

You say-
And speaking of noticing how people don't respond to your points……..you have still failed to answer this very simple question:

In what sense was Jesus, the PERSON who said the words in John 6:62, in the place to which he ascended……. BEFORE? In other words, was he there “before” as the person who made this statement, or as a “thought in God's mind”?

Reply-
My answer is I do not know. I do not know because I do not know where/what Christ is referring to with the “before”. The scripture does not say and the only way YOU can say is by assumption. If a scripture is unclear as this one is there can be no clear answer. YOU give an answer based on your preconceived ideas of doctrine. You read your doctrine into the verse and come to a conclusion based on that. That is also dishonest and misleading.

martian

[martian]

Mike,
One more thing. From your earlier post, you say this –
Have you learned anything from God, Martian? Are you exactly like Him?

Reply-
I am not called to be like God in anything but my motives and character. Most of us at this point would have to ask what does it look like for a human being to have the motives and character of God? Luckly my teaching permits me to see Christ as a perfect example of what it is like to have the character of God in a human being that is like his brethren in every way. I can see it is possible to make the same choices as he made based on the same knowledge and understandings and follow in the path that he traveled.
Your teaching knocks me off the path from the very start because Christ is making choices that develop his character based on knowledge that is not available to me. Your teaching forces me to travel another path that Christ did not go on.

From my teaching I can look ahead to see My fully human brother Christ and take hope because I see that the path he traveled leads to victory and overcoming.
From your teaching I have no one to follow and no one to give me hope and nothing to give me assurance that this path really works. Who on this path has ever succeeded. Who knows? Certainly not Christ. He was on another path.

You speak of sound logic. Well I just gave it to you. If you do not want to accept it then you are lost in your plastic indoctrination.

[martian]

Matthew 5:48
”Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Most reasonable people will ask how can we be perfect like our father? What in the world does that look like?
thankfully we have an example that had to be perfected and one that we can follow. Of course to follow along the same path as he we must make choices based on the same criteria/knowledge that he had.

John 17 21that they may all be one;)even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The word “even” here means the following-
1.according as
a.just as, even as
b.in proportion as, in the degree that
2.since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that when, after that
We are to be one with our Father in the same proportion as Christ was one with him. How do we do that?
Thankfully again we have an example made just like us in EVERYWAY that we can follow.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………….Bring Jesus back to your (EXACT) identity and you will find renewed Hope brother and delight yourself in His GOD and OUR GOD , His Father and OUR FATHER. Our testimony about Jesus is right brother. Undue yourself from all those false teachings of the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCES, and you (WILL) find renewed HOPE Brother.

peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2010,02:07)

Mike………….Bring Jesus back to your (EXACT) identity and you will find renewed Hope brother and delight yourself in His GOD and OUR GOD , His Father and OUR FATHER. Our testimony about Jesus is right brother. Undue yourself from all those false teachings of the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCES, and you (WILL) find renewed HOPE Brother. peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Sorry brother, but I will neither make Jesus be exactly the same as me nor will I elevate him to the postition of his God.  I will try my best to follow the Jesus that the Bible teaches…….the one who was sent from heaven and went back to heaven.  The one through whom God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 09 2010,05:50)

My answer is I do not know. I do not know because I do not know where/what Christ is referring to with the “before”. The scripture does not say and the only way YOU can say is by assumption. If a scripture is unclear as this one is there can be no clear answer. YOU give an answer based on your preconceived ideas of doctrine. You read your doctrine into the verse and come to a conclusion based on that. That is also dishonest and misleading.

Hi Martian,

Thank you for finally answering that simple question. I am confident that the answer you gave is the same answer Gene and barley and Marty and Kerwin would have to honestly give, if they ever decided to answer the question.

You say you do not know “where” he will ascend to? Didn't the disciples see him ascend to heaven? Isn't that enough to make an educated guess about the “where” that he was talking about?

Is there anywhere else Jesus was ever seen ascending to?

mike

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2010,15:19)

Hi Mike, I think that Calvin agrees with you too: Quote 62. What if you shall see the Son of man ascend to where he was before? The mean and despicable condition of Christ which they saw before their eyes, while, clothed with flesh, he was not at all different from other men, prevented them from submitting to his Divine power; but now — by withdrawing, as it were, the veil — he calls them to behold his heavenly glory, as if he had said, “Because I converse among men without honor, I am despised by you, and you recognize in me nothing that is Divine; but ere long God will adorn me with splendid power, and, withdrawing me from the contemptible state of mortal life, will raise me above the heavens.” For, in the resurrection of Christ, so great was the power displayed by the Holy Spirit, that it plainly showed Christ to be the Son of God, as Paul also shows, (Romans 1:4.) And when it is said, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee, (Psalm 2:7,) the resurrection is brought forward as a proof from which that glory of Christ ought to be acknowledged, and his ascension to heaven was the completion of that glory. When he says that he was formerly in heaven, this does not apply strictly to his human nature, and yet he speaks of the Son of man; but since the two natures in Christ constitute one person, it is not an unusual way of speaking to transfer to one nature what is peculiar to the other. From: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom34.xii.x.html

We are now going to take leading from that murdering criminal Calvin?

At least this doctrine would be in the right company.

[martian]

Mike,
Unlike you Mike, I am not willing to submit doctrine on speculation and guesswork. There is no definitive way to prove where Christ was referring to with the before. This scripture is ambiguous at best and should have never been presented as proof of any kind.
HOWEVER –
Were I to offer any explanation/guess at all it would be based on the principles I have posted several times.
Your contention is that when Christ speaks of going someplace he was before that he is speaking of heaven. That is not possible.
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
Look to the context of the very verse.
What if you see the Son of Man
Son of Man always depicts Christ’s humanity. The Greek word for “man” is anthropos and always means humanity.
SO – If your contention is true then Christ the human being, the decendant of David and son of Mary lived in heaven before he was born to Earth. Was the human being, the son of man in heaven before he was born to Mary?
Obviously Christ is talking about ascending to a place he was before as a human being among us.
Well the answer could be found in Phillipians 2 but you have rejected any explanation except your own for that verse.
Christ is the firstborn, the one that took Adam’s place because Adam sinned. As firstborn Christ had the authority and position to rule God’s kingdom. Because of his righteousness he could have proclaimed himself king and ruled the Earth with legions of angels and all power in heaven and Earth to back him up. Instead he became a servant and emptied himself of that rightful position.
The disciples were stumbled in John 6 by what Christ said. He countered – What if you see me ascend to my rightful position as ruler of my father’s kingdom of heaven and Earth. Will you also leave? This is the only position Christ had before as the son of man.
The disciples did see the Messiah ascend to his rightful position as king of heaven and Earth, but he was really returning to a position granted to the one who became the Messiah long before in the mind and plan of God. At some point in his Earthly life Christ made a decision to lay down that position and become a servant.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2010,14:50)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2010,02:07) Mike………….Bring Jesus back to your (EXACT) identity and you will find renewed Hope brother and delight yourself in His GOD and OUR GOD , His Father and OUR FATHER. Our testimony about Jesus is right brother. Undue yourself from all those false teachings of the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCES, and you (WILL) find renewed HOPE Brother. peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………gene Hi Gene, Sorry brother, but I will neither make Jesus be exactly the same as me nor will I elevate him to the postition of his God.  I will try my best to follow the Jesus that the Bible teaches…….the one who was sent from heaven and went back to heaven.  The one through whom God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. mike

Mike………The you are denying Jesus as a true brother of ours, and denying His Human works by the spirit if GOD (IN) him. You have out of your own mouth separated yourself from Christ Jesus, say you can not be the same as He. So it is impossible for yopu to come to the (FULL) Measure of Christ then right? It is exactly what martian has shown, if you truly can not believe Jesus did what he did as a 100% human being without any preexistence advantage except in the plan and will of GOD, you not only deny that but you deny GOD'S Power to save mankind by working in them exactly as he did in the MAN Jesus. So in a sense you not only reject Jesus' humanity but also GOD”S Power in and through Humanity. If you continue to separate Jesus from you likeness do you think he will say to you, your one of His? Seeing in your mind you reject his likeness and his work in mankind. IMO

peace and love…………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 11 2010,03:03)

The disciples were stumbled in John 6 by what Christ said. He countered – What if you see me ascend to my rightful position as ruler of my father’s kingdom of heaven and Earth. Will you also leave? This is the only position Christ had before as the son of man. The disciples did see the Messiah ascend to his rightful position as king of heaven and Earth, but he was really returning to a position granted to the one who became the Messiah long before in the mind and plan of God. At some point in his Earthly life Christ made a decision to lay down that position and become a servant.

Okay Martian,

But I thought you said he never accepted that postion of “being God in form” or whatever.  If he never accepted it, but instead made himself a servant, how could he say he was “there/in that postition” BEFORE?  And why do you think he would use the word “ascend” to it, instead of “return” to it?

Also, you didn't really answer WHY my understanding is incorrect.  He said “ascend”, and the disciples actually saw him “ascend” to his postion in heaven.  That makes the “before” part seem pretty evident to me.

Why is my interpretation wrong?  Why can't it be the way I understand it?  After all, mine is taking the words as they were written.  Yours is the one that “speculates” as to what OTHER “abstract” meaning those words MIGHT have had.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 11 2010,11:52)

Mike………The you are denying Jesus as a true brother of ours, and denying His Human works by the spirit if GOD (IN) him. You have out of your own mouth separated yourself from Christ Jesus, say you can not be the same as He. So it is impossible for yopu to come to the (FULL) Measure of Christ then right?  It is exactly what martian has shown, if you truly can not believe Jesus did what he did as a 100% human being without any preexistence advantage  except in the plan and will of GOD, you not only deny that but you deny GOD'S Power to save mankind by working in them exactly as he did in the MAN Jesus. So in a sense you not only reject Jesus' humanity but also GOD”S Power in and through Humanity.  If you continue to separate Jesus from you likeness do you think he will say to you, your one of His? Seeing in your mind you reject his likeness and his work in mankind. IMO peace and love…………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Two things:

1.  You can NEVER be the same as Christ.  He was sinless.  You probably committed your first sin as a 3 or 4 year old child stealing candy or lying to get out of trouble or something.  We all have.  Jesus died as a sacrifice so God could still consider Himself righteous in calling us righteous.  Jesus' blood was atonement for our many sins.  

So while in God's eyes, because of what Jesus did, we can be considered “sinless”, we really aren't actually without sin.  There's the difference Gene.  Jesus was a man who NEVER sinned, period.  We, on the other hand, have all sinned too many times to count, but can be considered sinless because Jesus died to make those sins “disappear” from God's sight.

2.  I have already been told over and over why you guys WANT Jesus to be exactly like us.  Your testimonials, while heartfelt and well intentioned, do NOT constitute any scriptural proof at all.  So please follow Martian's lead here, and start explaining away these “pre-existence” scriptures WITH SCRIPTURE……. not just your belief that Jesus had to be exactly like us for us to be saved.

peace and love to you brother,
mike

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