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Gene
You
Proclaimer you or they have not produced a single spicific scripture that says Jesus was alive before he was ever born on this earth..
Silly statement. He was given that name when he came in the flesh.
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
What we know is his name is the Word of God and he is the son of God.
God made the universe through the son. He made the universe through that Word that was WITH him.
You can’t argue it away because it is written.
What is fueling your desire to change what is written?
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
It is possible that the servant is Jesus Christ but the wording is strange if that was the case. Further, he would be talking about himself in the third person at times. It looks like an angel is revealing this, but with God at times speaking directly as with Jesus.
IMO, it’s more likely God > Jesus > Angel > John. Prophecy in the Old Testament is delivered by angel or an angel. Often times it is Gabriel.
Proclaimer
In Révélation 22, Jesus is not the Angel sent….for sure
Verse 16 say
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
Here, Jesus cannot be the angel sent to John since he is the one who sends His angel to John
Berean. …..“I Jesus have sent my “messenger” to testify these thing unto the Churches.
Now asķ yourself, who “testified” those things, unto TO THE CHURCHES, it was not an Angel, it was the apostle John who gave the “testimony”, that was given , by Jesus unto him for the churches?
JOHN is the one who wrote the book of Revelations, and gave it to the Churches, it was not an Angel who did it.
You can close your mind to this truth if you want to, but that’s your choice . But those who have ears to hear should have no problem seening it.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Rev 22, ……Jesus was talking to the Churches , “I Jesus have sent my “messenger” (John) to testify these thing unto the Churches. It was John who testified these thing to the Churches, Jesus was telling them (the churches) that he was the one that sent John to testify theses thing in the churches.
There is no recorded history of any Angel testifying to the Churches about what is written in Revelations . Only The apostle John testified to the Churches what Jesus told him?
Anyone who has the Spirit of Truth in them should be able to understand this. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Proclaimer…..God sent his servant (Jesus Christ) who showed and sent his “messenger” John to the Churches .
This is very important, At least you can see what I am saying, thats good, also read what I wrote about the Beginning of the book of Revelations, you then can see how it all ties together.
The translators were trinitarians, so they cooked the books, to fit their false teachings,
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw.
The way this is worded it mentions 4 persons. God > Jesus > Angel > John. There is a sentence here that says the angel passed it to John. So the angel can’t be John.
Unless the books were cooked as you say Gene. But would need to see proof of that in this book.
Rev 22, ……Jesus was talking to the Churches , “I Jesus have sent my “messenger” (John) to testify these thing unto the Churches. It was John who testified these thing to the Churches, Jesus was telling them (the churches) that he was the one that sent John to testify theses thing in the churches.
There is no recorded history of any Angel testifying to the Churches about what is written in Revelations.
Only The apostle John testified to the Churches what Jesus told him?
Anyone who has the Spirit of Truth in them should be able to understand this. IMOPeace and love to you and yours. ………gene
You got this WRONG Gene,
Who showed John these things?
“I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel
which showed me these things.” (Rev 22:8)1 Jesus
2 the Angel
3. Other… ?Can you admit you got this wrong? Oh that’s right
YOU CAN’T – because YOU don’t have a “FreeWill”HA Ha Ha Ha !!!!
Gene
You
Berean. …..“I Jesus have sent my “messenger” to testify these thing unto the Churches.
Now asķ yourself, who “testified” those things, unto TO THE CHURCHES, it was not an Angel, it was the apostle John who gave the “testimony”, that was given , by Jesus unto him for the churches?
JOHN is the one who wrote the book of Revelations, and gave it to the Churches, it was not an Angel who did it.
You can close your mind to this truth if you want to, but that’s your choice . But those who have ears to hear should have no problem seening it.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Me
I didn’t say the opposite
John passed on to the churches the things he saw and heard. That’s not the problem. You say, and it is you who started the thing, that Jesus does not want us to worship him (Rev. 22: 8,9)
I’m telling you it’s the angel telling John that , not Jesus ok?Berean…..the person speaking to John in verse 7 was Jesus, was the same person , notice what it says, “and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his “messenger” (that’s Jesus ) to show unto his servants (John and the Churches) the thing which must shortly be done. Now notice who starts speaking , it was not an Angel, but Jesus,
Verse 22:7…. BEHOLD I come quickly : blessed is he that keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this book
Then in verse 8, …And I John saw these things, and heard them and when I heard and seen , I fell down to worship before the feet of the “messenger” that showed these things (that messenger was Jesus who God sent) to show John these things, as the beginning of the book Revelations shows.
Now notice carefully, in verse 9, “then says he unto me” it’s a continuation of the same person speaking in Verse 7, See that you do not, because I am thy “fellowservant”, and of thy “brethern” The Prophets, and of them that keep the sayings of this book: “worship God” . That person is and was Jesus. Not any angel of anykind.
Then Jesus continues his dialog in verse 10 through 12.
It’s all there for those who have eyes to see it. There are “only” three persons mentioned there , one was God the Father, the other was Jesus, and the other was John.
As I have said, the “trinitarian” translators , could not let the Messenger be Jesus, because it would completely wipe out their claim that Jesus was a God, so they deliberately added into the text another person. But it can be seen through, by the flow of the text. That “messenger” was Jesus.
For those who have eyes to see.
Peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Gene
I DON’T BELIEVE FOR A SINGLE MOMENT WHAT YOU’RE TELLING ME.
IF YOU READ WELL THE INTRODUCTION OF THE BOOK , WE HAVE FOUR PEOPLE (not to mention the servants)Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:JESUS CHRIST
GOD
THE ANGEL
JOHN
NOW VERSE 6
And he(the angel) said unto me(John), These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
….. the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel….
SEE AND COMPARE WITH VERSE 16
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
CONCLUSION
I) THE ANGELS OF GOD ARE ALSO THE ANGELS OF CHRIST THAT IS WHY JESUS STATED IN JOHN 17:10
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.2) JESUS IS NOT HERE THE ANGEL SENT.
JESUS is called God’s “only begotten Son” in the same chapter where John is a witness telling us that “upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.”
JESUS, the Son of Man from heaven whom Nicodemus said was a teacher COME FROM GOD, is called God’s “only begotten Son” in the same chapter that we are told, “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.”
There is no record of any other mortal man being said to have received God’s Spirit without measure, the human given the name JESUS is the ONLY one who received such glory, but I’m told that has nothing to do with why Jesus is called God’s only begotten Son.
I am supposed to believe that this mortal human who received the Spirit without measure is called God’s only begotten Son because he pre-existed as the first thing God had created but then he entered a woman’s egg and fertilized it becoming a human embryo.
I am supposed to believe that as I am promised to be made into the image of the Son that means I am to be made into the being that Jesus pre-existed as?
Let’s forget about me being told that I am a Son of God by being led by God’s Spirit. Let’s forget that the Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God. Let’s forget about the fruits of God’s Spirit and how God had promised that He would give a new heart of flesh and place His Spirit upon me and I would be caused to walk in all His ways. Let’s forget that the Messiah was to be the son of Jesse whom God would raise up in righteousness and direct all his ways, let’s forget that God had promised David that He would be a Father unto David’s son, let’s forget that God had promised this son of David that He would make him into His firstborn, let’s forget that Paul speaks of Jesus as a Son of God according to prophecy and that Jesus is the son of David but is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead where upon him being raised he received God’s Spirit because of a promise.
I am to see myself and believe that me being made into the image of the Son is about me being made into the image of the first being that God had created, even though Jesus at this moment according to scripture exists as a human raised from the dead having been begotten of God’s Spirit on that day?
Easily debunking some of the teachings of Jodi and Gene
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
And there came unto me ONE of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me (John), saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
And I am John, who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!
Too easy. And just a reminder:
No matter how much you repeat a lie, it never makes it true.
Proclaimer, the only time they seen Jesus was when he was walking around “above the Ground like them, so they never saw him decend from heaven in the first place, so why would Jesus ask a question like “what” “if” , you “see” me” asend where he was before , wouldn’t they first have to have seen him decend, inorder to see him asend to where he was “before”? He was speaking to them about his death and resurection from the grave. It Had nothing to do with him decending and asending into heaven, because they never “seen him” decend from heaven in the first place. that just another trinitarian “lie”. Fostered on the church, to try to make Jesus out to be a diety of somekind. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Jodi
You
I am to see myself and believe that me being made into the image of the Son is about me being made into the image of the first being that God had created, even though Jesus at this moment according to scripture exists as a human raised from the dead having been begotten of God’s Spirit on that day?
Me
begotten of God’s Spirit
I did not find this expression in the bible
Genesis 5
4]And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Lev.18
[11] The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Num.11
[12] Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
Deut.23
[8] The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.
Judg.8
[30] And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
Job.38
[28] Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Pss.2
[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Isa.49
[21] Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Hos.5
[7] They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a month devour them with their portions.John.1
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John.3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts.13
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
1Cor.4
[15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Phlm.1
[10] I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
Heb.1
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb.5
[5] So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb.11
[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
1Pet.1
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1John.4
[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1John.5
[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Rev.1
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,Proclaimer, Jesus was the messenger, that God sent to show John his servant who recorded it and took it to the Churches. There was no angelic being involved ,
The word Angel, means “messenger” there, and Jesus is and was God’s “messenger”, to mankind.
REV 1:1…..The revelation of Jesus Christ, which “God” gave him, to shew unto his (God’s) servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (God) sent and signified it by his (God’s) angel – (messenger), (Jesus Christ) unto his servant John. Who?, (John), bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and all things he (John) saw.
Jesus is the messenger of the new covenant. He is the one God sent to tell John his servant what to write in the book of Revelations so he (John) would record and deliver it to the seven churches in Asia. There was no Angel involved here, just God the Father , Jesus and John.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Berean, …..You haven’t disproved a single word Jodi said, and I agree with what she said 100%.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Proclaimer, the only time they seen Jesus was when he was walking around “above the Ground like them, so they never saw him decend from heaven in the first place, so why would Jesus ask a question like “what” “if” , you “see” me” asend where he was before , wouldn’t they first have to have seen him decend, inorder to see him asend to where he was “before”? He was speaking to them about his death and resurection from the grave. It Had nothing to do with him decending and asending into heaven, because they never “seen him” decend from heaven in the first place.
You don’t need to see it for it to be true and other scriptures teach us where he came from
Yes, some say seeing is believing. Thomas said that. Your theory about Jesus ascending to where he was before is a bit weird considering that he was on Earth when he spoke those words. So what was before that?
And who saw him rise from the dead exactly? But we know they beheld him when he ascended into Heaven. He returned to the glory he had with the Father before the universe.
You teach opposite to scripture. You say he didn’t ascend to where he was before and didn’t return to the glory he had with the Father because he didn’t have glory with him before the universe. Only after the universe.
Is there a name for your particular brand of teaching? If not, I will call it Jodiism.
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