John 3, Jesus was Born Again

[GeneBalthrop]

Berean……you changed the wording of the text again,  that’s no allowed,  I am quoting from the original king James ,  are you?

REV 1:1….”The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which “GOD” gave unto him, to shew unto “HIS” servants things which must shortly come to pass; and “He” sent and “signified” it by his “angel” (or messenger) unto “His” servant John:  (2), who bare record of the word “of God “,  “and” of the testimony of Jesus Christ,  “and” of all the things he (John) saw.  (Parentheses mine)

Question 1. …..did God give it to Jesus?

Question 2…….who is the “His” servants mentioned there,?,  I would say it was GOD the Father, servants, who are brothers of Jesus, who is also a fellow servant of God the Father.

Question 3……who is the “He” that sent.? , I would say the it was God the Father. Seening  it was his Revelation, he gave to Jesus and  not Jesus’ revelation, also I believe it was God himself that also “signified” it.  (I did a research on that word once and it actually meant to “symbolize” something.)

Question 4…….who was the “angel” or messenger?,  I believe the messenger was Jesus, who recieved it from God the Father and gave it to John, who gave it to the servants of God in the churches and elsewhere.  But all were servants of God including Jesus, who God gave it to in the first place? 

Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

 

[Berean]

 

Gene

YOU

Berean……you changed the wording of the text again,  that’s no allowed,  I am quoting from the original king James ,  are you?

REV 1:1….”The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which “GOD” gave unto him, to shew unto “HIS” servants things which must shortly come to pass; and “He” sent and “signified” it by his “angel” (or messenger) unto “His” servant John:  (2), who bare record of the word “of God “,  “and” of the testimony of Jesus Christ,  “and” of all the things he (John) saw.  (Parentheses mine)

Me

In my response, I summarized verse 1
This is not all the text, I know it
I do not agree with you, Jesus in verses 1,2 and in chapter 22 is not the angel (or the messenger)

If it had, the text would say

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his messenger Jesus Christ unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE

the proof
CHAP. 22:16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

It is not written in verses 1,2 and in chapter 22 neither that Jesus is the servant of the Father
No, again, you mix your Unitarian doctrine with the biblical text

Bible say

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw

he sent and signified it by his angel

the “he” is Jesus Christ or/and God

the proof

GOD

22:[6] And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

JESUS CHRIST

CHAP.22:16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM

GOD GIVES REVELATION TO JESUS CHRIST, BUT GOD DOES NOT SEND JESUS CHRIST but his angel
In any case, it is not in the text that concerns us (v.1,2 et chap.22)

This is what I understand and believe in the present moment

 

 

[GeneBalthrop]

Berean…..it will makes perfect sense if you understand both Jesus and John,  are servants of GOD the Father.   We are too.

Thats why I gave proof before, that Jesus himself is refereed to By God the Father as “his servant”. So are all of us that believe in him, his (God the fathers) servants.  We are joint servants with Jesus and joint Heirs with him also. 

I will post again for you,  where God CALLS Jesus his servant .

Isa 42: 1……Behold “my servant”, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights;  I have put “my” spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.  

Jesus was “anointed” with the Spirit of God, was he not?  Berean so you can see clearly Jesus is indeed called a “servant” of God. 

Read Isa 49:5-6,  there Jesus is called God’s servant also, Jesus even said himself,   he was among them as a “servant” as I recall. 

So can we at least agree that Jesus is indeed called a servant of God the Father.

Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

[Proclaimer]

Proclaimer….. “O” it’s your lack of understanding, thats why you need the Spirit of the truth to guide your mind , into the truth, but what “captivating” your mind, hence your “will” “NOW” , IS preventing you from this subject it seems. So you not as “free” as you assumed you were right?

I ask for a simple descussion, and you bounce off the walls, like Berean, about a completely different topic. Bad form Proclaimer. SEEMS YOUR SO CALLED “FREEWILL” is preventing you from staying focused, perhaps you need to aquire a “more ” focused will, guided by the Spirit of God , yours seems to not be working to well at this moment it seems.

But you understand why because it would have been predetermined and I had no real will to change the outcome right?

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer. …. correct, you nailed it, that is your “captivated”, will,  at work  doing what your mind is “influencing” it to do.   Nothing “free’ about that is there?

Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

 

 

[Proclaimer]

Ha ha ha ha.

If you really believe that you cannot choose when influenced, then you are less in the image of God than God made you. Not far off a dog who cannot choose when meat is dangled before it. You teach that you are helpless and carnal. And yes, you make a good case for you. But you cannot apply your own shortcomings to others who have chosen the Spirit and take responsibility for their choices seriously.

And you have no excuse when people do not answer your questions according to your own theory. You lose twice here.

But for those who love truth and know why God holds us responsible, we will continue to expect honest answers because saying free will doesn’t exist will not work for those that love the truth.

We win twice. We expect you to tell the truth but do not, thus showing what manner of man you are. And we also can choose to learn from others and to reject others teachings because they are not scriptural. You have no such options because your mind is closed.

You lose Gene. Let’s be straight up about that.

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer,  first of all you are lying again, or maybe completely forgetful,   I never said we can choose what is influencing us, please post where I ever said that.  I think your “captivated will” is screwing with you a little,  WHAT I SAID WAS YOU WILL ALWAYS CHOSE WHAT IS “INFLUENCING YOU THE “MOST” . 

Now prove me wrong on that if you can.   Why do you think we must have the Spirit of God abiding  in us “forever”,  if not to “cause us”  to do “his” will, not because he hates us, but because he “LOVES” us, and wants to share eternity with us all.   but the “only” way that is possible is if he indwell us, and prevent us from wrong choices

“Know you not that your body is the temple of the Living God?  Why if we can by our own so-called “freewill” make our own right decisions alway,  Why would we need him to ‘KEEP’ US THEN?  why dose it say ” The Lord bless and “KEEP” you”? 

PROCLAIMER, that the big lesson of man kind , it is they cannot keep themselves right or perfect, it takes God in them to do that , or haven’t you ever read , “that God may be “in” ALL and THROUGH ALL.” ,   think about it. 

Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

 

[Berean]

Old Christian song

~ When the sky sounds …

1
When the sky rings with praise,
And that here below reigned the dark night,
Jesus was born, more the humble than the angels;
To save me, he descended so low.

Chorus
Supreme hapiness,
My Savior loves me,
He who died and was resurrected,
And on the nude,
In a place,
I will see him, who redeemed me.

2
When at the cross, the Prince of life
Wash, whitewash my sins, my crimes,
The great power of his infinite grace,
Closed the abyss where Satan was dragging me.

3
When on the morning of the great victory,
He triumphed over death, over the tomb,
He erased the memory forever
From the dark past, this crushing burden.

4
When he comes in his magnificence
To delight his own forever in heaven,
I will sing the hymn of deliverance,
In exalting son great glorious name.

[GeneBalthrop]

BEREAN…..let’s pick this subject up again, everyone can benifit from it  , go back to my post of 867752

Now do you agree that God the Father  called Jesus a Servant of his?

Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

[Berean]

Gene

You

Now do you agree that God the Father  called Jesus a Servant of his?

Me

In Isaiah yes, but not in Revelation 1 AND 22.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Berean]

JESUS IN Revelation 1

Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness….

and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

[Berean]

End chapitre ONE OF REVELATION

Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

JESUS IN REVELATION 2

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

 

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

 

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

 

 

[Proclaimer]

Let’s be clear here Gene. We debate with you not because we think you are offering a good challenge, but purely to debunk your obvious flawed doctrines. Similarly, I debunk flat earthers not because their theories offer a proper challenge or any kind of threat, but just to debunk the lies that they teach.

Never make the mistake that you are somehow spearheading a decent challenge here in Heaven Net. No. I cannot even remember one occasion when you did that.

[Berean]

Revelation 2

And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

 

REVELATION 3

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; 

[Berean]

REVELATION 3.  (SUITE)

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

(Jesus didn’t say no man except me an ordinary man)

No man shutteh

No man openeth

 

 

 

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

YOU: Now do you agree that God the Father called Jesus a Servant of his?

WHY DON’T YOU BE DECENT ENOUGH AND

PRODUCE SCRIPTURE,

RATHER THEN GIVE YOUR CARNAL PERCEPTION AND UNDERSTANDING!

YOU FOR INSTANT DON’T BELIEVE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS.

NOW JESUS BECAME GOD’S SERVANT RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING,

JOHN1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

IN THE ABOVE,  IN THE SAME INSTANT THAT HE WAS GOD’S SERVANT HE WAS ALSO GOD,

SIMPLY CREATED ALL GOD’S CREATION!

John1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

NOW KEEP IN MIND THAT

NO ONE KNOWS WHAT AND WHO GOD IS!

NOW TO

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:

Sit on my right hand, until

I make

thy enemies thy footstool?

Gene, in the above scripture, Isn’t God declaring that in a particular way

HE IS SERVING JESUS CHRIST 

RIGHT NOW?

MAKING JESUS CHRIST’S ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL.

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[Berean]

 

End Revelation 3

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The biginning of The création of God

 

BIGINNING

 

746

arch
arche
ar-khay’
from arcomai – archomai 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):–beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

 

In other words
Jesus is the HEAD OF GOD’S CREATION

 

[Proclaimer]

Amen. Jesus is the head. He was in the beginning as the Word. The first born of all creation. All things were created through him.

[GeneBalthrop]

Berean,,,, did you notice the word “or” there?,  you see It could refer to Jesus as one thing,  but not the other. That is why it says “or” , it dosen’t say “and” but “or” , yes Jesus is the first “born”  of  all of GOD THE Fathers “creation” from “mankind” to inherit the Kingdom of God,  the first “born”  to be raised back from the dead to be given eternal life,  thats all true, but the first of  all of God’s creation “to exist”, that is not true? THAT’S AN ASSUMPTION , on yours and others part ,   that is not specifically stated there?  Your forcing  the text to say what infact it doesn’t “specifically” say.  

Thats like Proclaimer falsely saying Jesus said he was “born”, before Abraham,  when in fact it doesent say that at all, Jesus said, ““before Abraham I am” ,  which refers to his  position of importance to them,  and in other place Jesus also said this,  “greater them he,  is here”, speaking of others that prexisted him.   Jesus was always having to show his importance to those Pharisees. 

You have at least acknowledged that Jesus was indeed referred to by God himself as his servant in scriptures.  Thats a good start.

Berean,  can we agree also,  that Jesus was and is God the Fathers messenger, infact anyone who God sends to speak his words to someone else , is a messenger of God the Father, like the prophets?, Can we agree with this also, before we move on?  I am trying to establish some form of a foundation that we can build on here?

Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

 

 

[Proclaimer]

And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

The Angel of the LORD in scripture is often describes as being YHWH. How do we explain this if God is not an angel.

Easy. The answer is given in the New Testament.

God is invisible and no man has seen him.

But didn’t Moses and others see God?

What they actually saw was the angel of YHWH.

And we have been told that the son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. He is the exact representation of his being. And the fullness of the deity within him.

What men actually saw when they saw God was the Messenger of YHWH.

And we never read about this messenger when Jesus came to earth because if we did, that would show that he wasn’t that messenger.

His name is Jesus therefore he is Jesus.

His name is the Word of God, therefore he is the Word of God.

[Author]

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