John 3 Born Again

[Jodi]

TC,

This is VERY SIMPLE,

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

By how you want to interpret this passage the message is that you need to be absent from a body to be present with the Lord, is it not? Do you see how that creates a huge problem for you?

TC, why does Paul say,

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his BODY, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Because when you walk according to the flesh you are at home in your body, but when you are walking according to the Spirit, God is dwelling in you, you are PRESENT with the Lord.

So TC when you are doing bad in your body, when sin is dwelling in you, is the Lord present? When you are doing good, righteous deeds, is the Lord present, dwelling in you? If you do bad but mortify the deeds of your body repenting and desiring to be delivered from your weak flesh where you are subjected to the law of sin, because you want to follow God’s ways without ever missing a mark, is that not counted at the judgement worthy of the reward?

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jody,

You: This is VERY SIMPLE.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
By how you want to interpret this passage the message is that you need to be absent from a body to be present with the Lord, is it not? Do you see how that creates a huge problem for you?
Me: NO, but I can see where it creates a HUGE PROBLEM for YOU.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,,

 

You: why does Paul say,

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his BODY, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

Me:

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether PRESENT OR ABSENT, we may BE ACCEPTED of him.

Me: This means when we do good things in our present lives or bodies we are accepted by him. When we get a good report at the end of our lives and are out of body, then we are accepted completely by him. We labor to be accepted of him in our bodies and out of our bodies, i.e. our spirits.

You: Because when you walk according to the flesh you are at home in your body, but when you are walking according to the Spirit, God is dwelling in you, you are PRESENT with the Lord.

 

Me: Whether I am walking in sin or in righteousness my mind is still in me when alive here on earth. Even when I sin, and all do, God is PRESENT  in me.

Weymouth New Testament
Heb 10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins
1 Thes 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Me: It is when we quench the spirit by not caring the outcome of a good life that God leaves us.

You: So TC when you are doing bad in your body, when sin is dwelling in you, is the Lord present? When you are doing good, righteous deeds, is the Lord present, dwelling in you? If you do bad but mortify the deeds of your body repenting and desiring to be delivered from your weak flesh where you are subjected to the law of sin, because you want to follow God’s ways without ever missing a mark, is that not counted at the judgement worthy of the reward?

Me:
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to BE WITH CHRIST which is far better: 24 NETHERTHELESS TO ABIDE IN THE FLESH IS MORE NEEDFUL FOR YOU. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

Me: So according to you, verse 24 states that if Paul abides in the flesh or in sin, he could  fulfill the needs of those who he is helping. I think you may be OUT OF MIND when doing your posts.

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his BODY, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Me: Yes, judgment is on the household of God now, in this church age at their deaths.

1 Peter 4: For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Cor 1523: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;…

Me: What saints do in our present human bodies here on earth is judged in heaven when the saints die in good stead. If we overcome the bad with more of the good, we receive a just reward at the Messiah’s coming (Rev 6:9-11). Those other saints not in good stead at their deaths are judged at the end of the millennium.

You: Because when you walk according to the flesh you are at home in your body, but when you are walking according to the Spirit, God is dwelling in you, you are PRESENT with the Lord. So TC when you are doing bad in your body, when sin is dwelling in you, is the Lord present? When you are doing good, righteous deeds, is the Lord present, dwelling in you? If you do bad but mortify the deeds of your body repenting and desiring to be delivered from your weak flesh where you are subjected to the law of sin, because you want to follow God’s ways without ever missing a mark, is that not counted at the judgement worthy of the reward?

Me: Sin is always dwelling in us. We mortify the deeds of the flesh with the holy spirit in us. We cannot mortify the deeds of the flesh if the spirit is not there at the same time.

Heb 13:5 (NKJV) Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,” 6 so that we confidently say,
“THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID.
WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?”

Prov 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

It’s a HUGE problem for you TC because,

As stated that you agreed, “you need to be absent from a body to be present with the Lord”

How are the DEAD IN Christ RAISED AND what BODY do they come with? A body RAISED in glory, RAISED in power, RAISED incorruptible. 

So you want to tell us TC that we will be ABSENT from the Lord in the BODY we are raised with? For according to you A PERSON CANNOT BE PRESENT with the Lord when they HAVE a BODY. That is a lie. 

TC, if the Spirit of God is dwelling in you is God present with you? YES or NO?

I believe Paul’s words, and I don’t make him into a contradicting fool, or just a flat out liar.  

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

TC YOU have 3 problems,

First, we are in fact present with the Lord when we have a BODY as those who walk not according to the flesh have the Spirit of God DWELLING in them, and Second, likewise when we are raised from the dead and given a body of glory, the FULLNESS of God’s Spirit is dwelling in us. 

Thirdly, Paul teaches that those in Christ, BEFORE they are RAISED UP into an incorruptible body of power and glory, they are DEAD they are not ALIVE.

What you teach is actually VOID of a resurrection of those in Christ. Resurrection is to be RAISED UP FROM the DEAD and receiving an incorruptible body.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE. 23 But every man in his own order:

TC it is directly given to you, that when you die you are DEAD, the resurrection is to BE MADE ALIVE again.

Interesting how you misinterpret Paul’s words from one verse to make him a total liar in another verse. 

[Jodi]

HI TC,

YOU:
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to BE WITH CHRIST which is far better: 24 NETHER THE LESS TO ABIDE IN THE FLESH IS MORE NEEDFUL FOR YOU. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

So according to you, verse 24 states that if Paul abides in the flesh or in sin, he could  fulfill the needs of those who he is helping. I think you may be OUT OF MIND when doing your posts.

ME:

Paul says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain“,

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown OF LIFE.

 Paul says, 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION of OUR BODY.

SOWN in WEAKNESS RAISED IN POWER, Paul could not wait to be RAISED IN POWER, given a body that cannot tempt him anymore. TO DIE is gain for him, but at the present time as he lives feeling like a wretched man laboring, he knows that he has a purpose from God, he was called to be an apostle to speak truth and build faith unto the people. 

Paul says, 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

TC Paul called death as being asleep, being awake is to be ALIVE again. Paul knew exactly what I have said prior, when you DIE your next conscious moment is meeting the Lord receiving your eternal life with your incorruptible body of glory and power. It’s like you have gone to sleep, why they call death sleep, for when you are asleep you are not aware of TIME. When you WAKE from the DEAD INTO LIFE for you it is as if NO TIME has passed by. 

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also HELPETH OUR INFIRMITIES: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with GROANINGS which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Matt 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Me: Even before we repent before God and ask forgiveness, the messiah knows what is in the mind of God that he forgives us before we and the Messiah ask. For the Messiah searches our minds and knows ALL what we should be asking, even if we don’t,  and asks for us. He groans within because we are in him, not just he in us.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Me: The Messiah is our brother and sacrifice. We cannot save ourselves by just our own repentance. Even the OT saints had to await the sacrifice of Christ to be saved.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Me: If you think you can save yourself, you are proud and God will not listen to you. If you think that you can understand the things of God without God, you are proud and you will NOT.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Me: The Messiah knows us better than we know ourselves and what sins we have committed.  He is our mediator.  We are out of body and with God when we are out of present physical body.

You: Because when you walk according to the flesh you are at home in your body, but when you are walking according to the Spirit, God is dwelling in you, you are PRESENT with the Lord.

 

Me: NO! God is present with us.

 

Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN  I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You Quoted me:

 

“Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to BE WITH CHRIST which is far better: 24 NETHER THE LESS TO ABIDE IN THE FLESH IS MORE NEEDFUL FOR YOU. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

So according to you, verse 24 states that if Paul abides in the flesh or in sin, he could fulfill the needs of those who he is helping. I think you may be OUT OF MIND when doing your posts.”

You:
Paul says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain“,
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown OF LIFE.

Paul says, Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION of OUR BODY.

Me: I have shown you that in order for the two verses above to correspond with each other we need the right translation:

Let’s look at what redemption means.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G629&t=KJV
Stong’s definition: 629/apolýtrōsis (“redemption, re-purchase”) emphasizes the DISTANCE (“SAFETY-MARGIN”) that results between the rescued person, and what previously enslaved them.
b. to let one go free on receiving the price: Plato, legg. 11, p. 919a.; Polybius 22, 21, 8; (cf.) Diodorus 13, 24), “a releasing effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance, liberation procured by the payment of a ransom”;

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G629&t=KJV
Blue Bible:
Apolytrōsis: from a compound of G575 and G3083 (the act) ransom in full i.e. figuratively RIDDANCE, or (specially) Christian salvation.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Me: Death in our bodies causes us to sin. Life on the other hand brings righteousness. Death is passed on to all men.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, [epi ho: by which] all have sinned:

Me: Bottom line—we are redeemed from our bodies of death. We receive new bodies reserved in heaven for us. Our old bodies are not redeemed, rather we are redeemed from them. Christ paid the price.
Let us look at Rom 8:3 once again in light of the scriptures presented. Click on the link below. The bottom line has “body” as the definition of 4983. The phase “of the body” is the interpreters’ bias opinion. It could have been just as easily presented as “from the body” which I believe is the right phrase. Thus,

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption [me: FROM] our body.

You: SOWN in WEAKNESS RAISED IN POWER, Paul could not wait to be RAISED IN POWER, given a body that cannot tempt him anymore. TO DIE is gain for him, but at the present time as he lives feeling like a wretched man laboring, he knows that he has a purpose from God, he was called to be an apostle to speak truth and build faith unto the people.

Me: We are redeemed from our present bodies. We receive new bodies of the seed of the holy spirit. God does not put new wine in old bottles.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest (IMAGE), thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain (me: seed): 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh:…40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another

Me: We will bear the image of the second Adam, not retain the first. We receive bodies of the holy spirit, not the earth.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

 

You: Paul says, 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Me: The dead in Christ are those that died to self and put on Christ. The dead in Christ shall “APPEAR” first. Their old bodies of the flesh are crucified with the Messiah.  Then those alive but not fully dead in Christ shall die completely first to self and to their bodies.   They  then have new bodies.

You: Paul called death as being asleep, being awake is to be ALIVE again. Paul knew exactly what I have said prior, when you DIE your next conscious moment is meeting the Lord receiving your eternal life with your incorruptible body of glory and power. It’s like you have gone to sleep, why they call death sleep, for when you are asleep you are not aware of TIME. When you WAKE from the DEAD INTO LIFE for you it is as if NO TIME has passed by.

Me: Yeah, the conventional wisdom of this world you are. We rest in Christ, not in the ground with the rest of the dead.

Rev 6:9  When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should REST a little while longer,

Heb 13:5 (NKJV) Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

John 14:1 (NKJV) “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so,I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

John 11: 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

You clearly have missed much of what I have REPEATEDLY SAID.

Let me give it to you,

To the glory of The One True God our heavenly Father, Christ died for our sins. Without that when I die I would be forever dead. Through Jesus’s sacrifice he paid for ALL SINS, and both the just and the unjust are raised from the dead. All people are set free from the first death, all those who die will all be resurrected.

What is needed to obtain eternal life upon your resurrection, where the second death has no power over you is given to us.

What counts as our righteousness worthy to obtain the promise, is our FAITH in the One True God, believing in His Gospel, of which Jesus is IN THE WORD OF that Gospel and Jesus likewise fulfills The WORD of that Gospel. Jesus likewise SPOKE THE WORD of that Gospel.

NOW our FAITH comes through a CALLING by our heavenly Father, that calling, as we are told in a passage I have given many times, was foreordained, it was predestined, SO OF COURSE God knows our deeds and our hearts through those deeds, He knew them long before we were ever born, He knew them before He created the world.

Our repentant heart is not for His sake it is for ours. Part of our calling is God bringing us into a repentant heart, as it is by that repentance that we not only know right from wrong, good over evil, but also we recognize that we cannot do any good through our own selves, only God is good, and His Spirit must dwell in us to be good.

God knows that but we need to LEARN it. Paul knew it fully, why he desired to become a joint heir with Christ being an heir of God, having God dwell in him without measure unto a calling of absolute righteousness, not being capable of sinning anymore, moreover not even having weak flesh that tempts us away from God’s path.  

YOU:

The Messiah is our brother and sacrifice. We cannot save ourselves by just our own repentance. Even the OT saints had to await the sacrifice of Christ to be saved.

If you think you can save yourself, you are proud and God will not listen to you. If you think that you can understand the things of God without God, you are proud and you will NOT.

ME: We are saved receiving eternal life through believing in the Gospel of God, and it is God that calls us unto that Faith. In that Gospel is Christ paying for our sins, in that Gospel is a calling bringing our hearts to repentance.

Jesus and Paul speak of the importance of repentance,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them,Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; butnow commandeth all men every where to repent:

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Psalm 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

So this is KEY, “that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.”

When Christ descends from heaven and our LORD judges the world through Christ, those in him are most bold when they rise up from being dead as they know they are ascending straight up into the clouds to meet their brother and master Jesus Christ in the clouds. Jesus with his saints will come down to earth and bring forth judgement to the unjust. 

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead IN Christ shall RISE first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

TC, once again, “that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.”

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It is clearly written,

The SAINTS do not see Christ until they rise from the dead and meet him in the clouds. 

When they see Christ in the clouds they shall see him as he is as they will be like he is. 

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

YOU: I have shown you that in order for the two verses above to correspond with each other we need the right translation:

Let’s look at what redemption means.

Stong’s definition: 629/apolýtrōsis (“redemption, re-purchase”) emphasizes the DISTANCE (“SAFETY-MARGIN”) that results between the rescued person, and what previously enslaved them.
b. to let one go free on receiving the price: Plato, legg. 11, p. 919a.; Polybius 22, 21, 8; (cf.) Diodorus 13, 24), “a releasing effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance, liberation procured by the payment of a ransom”;

Blue Bible:
Apolytrōsis: from a compound of G575 and G3083 (the act) ransom in full i.e. figuratively RIDDANCE, or (specially) Christian salvation.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Death in our bodies causes us to sin. Life on the other hand brings righteousness. Death is passed on to all men.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, [epi ho: by which] all have sinned:

Bottom line—we are redeemed from our bodies of death. We receive new bodies reserved in heaven for us. Our old bodies are not redeemed, rather we are redeemed from them. Christ paid the price.

ME: Redemption – Apolutrosis, a releasing effected by payment of ransom.

redemption, deliverance
liberation procured by the payment of a ransom
23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

A RELEASING effect of the BODY by payment of ransom

LIBERATION or DELIVERANCE of the BODY by payment of ransom

The HUMAN body is being changed from mortal to immortal, from being mortal flesh to being immortal flesh.

Our bodies are being delivered from sin and death, being given righteousness and eternal life.

TC listen EXACTLY to what Paul says, slow down, carefully read,

38 But God giveth it A BODY as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the GLORY of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 SO ALSO is the resurrection of the dead. IT is sown in corruption; IT is raised in incorruption: 43 IT is sown in dishonour; IT is raised in glory: IT is sown in weakness; IT is raised in power:

“IT” is a direct reference to the HUMAN BODY.

Paul IS talking about the SAME BODY TYPE, the HUMAN body type, he compared it to other body types of other creatures that God had made, and “IT”, that specific type of body/the human body of which IT has IT’S OWN GLORY, God RAISES IT in that GLORY.

YOU: …Life on the other hand brings righteousness

TC, I really am not catching what you are saying above.  It is through our weak mortal flesh that God was able to make His powers known, our weak mortal flesh served a purpose. His strength is magnified and understood through our weakness, through our mortal bodies. Because of our weakness God is able to draw us in because of His strength.

TC, it is God’s calling, receiving of His Spirit, that thus builds our FAITH in Him, our trust in Him, our desire to follow His path, that leads to righteousness and thus the reward of such is eternal life.

Once we have our FAITH firmly established and when it is thus coupled with an immortal body, we are perfected, God is ALL IN. Our body and spirit is complete and our soul can live in peace and harmony walking perfectly in God’s ways.  

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

ME: Paul says, 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise first:

YOU: The dead in Christ are those that died to self and put on Christ. The dead in Christ shall “APPEAR” first. Their old bodies of the flesh are crucified with the Messiah.  Then those alive but not fully dead in Christ shall die completely first to self and to their bodies.   They  then have new bodies.

ME: The DEAD in Christ, are those that are DEAD and they DIED having FAITH, and they shall be MADE ALIVE receiving eternal life because of their faith.

“THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST”, the DEAD NOT in CHRIST shall rise later, not until after the thousand year reign.

You are totally abusing scripture to fit your doctrine; it is such very BAD FORM TC.

ME: Paul called death as being asleep, being awake is to be ALIVE again. Paul knew exactly what I have said prior, when you DIE your next conscious moment is meeting the Lord receiving your eternal life with your incorruptible body of glory and power. It’s like you have gone to sleep, why they call death sleep, for when you are asleep you are not aware of TIME. When you WAKE from the DEAD INTO LIFE for you it is as if NO TIME has passed by.

YOU: Yeah, the conventional wisdom of this world you are. We rest in Christ, not in the ground with the rest of the dead.

ME: Conventional wisdom you say?? Are YOU SURE??  As they are the words of Jesus himself as well as David and Daniel, not just Paul, as a matter of fact death as sleep is all over the place in the OT and we read it also in the New.

How is it that God’s prophets and apostles spoke of DEATH AS SLEEP, and JESUS himself, and YOU have the AUDACITY to say I am of “conventional wisdom”, such audacity from you, could only come either by your absolute IGNORANCE or your absolute abuse of a passage trying to twist it to fit your doctrine, BAD FORM.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was BURIED in the city of David.

Psalms 17: As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness WHEN I AWAKE.

Acts 2:34 For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of DAVID also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,…. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is written AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, it is written AFTER Pentecost TC. According to you TC, Paul should be talking about meeting David and others where they currently are, but he doesn’t, he speaks of them all receiving their perfection at the same time. 

TC, David is DEAD, he is asleep as Jesus calls it, David does not receive anything until Christ returns, for all the dead along with those who are alive when Christ returns receive the promise of eternal life together, on the same day.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Paul is speaking about an order to a PARTICULAR THING, THAT ORDER is OF being raised from the dead RECEIVING a body that has eternal life TC. You want to insert an order of men being raised from the dead without a body. SUCH DOES NOT EXIST in this passage, nor anywhere in this chapter or in the bible, your doctrine is totally delusional. 

What does the prior verse say, 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME the firstfruits OF THEM that SLEPT.

EVERY MAN in HIS own order Paul speaks of in man receiving eternal life, Jesus is the first, ONE MAN that is resurrected. Do you know of any other men that were resurrected the same day as Jesus was TC?? NO of course not, Jesus is the FIRST. THEN as it is said, THEY, ALL of THEM that are Christ’s, are resurrected together into eternal life.

ANOTHER POINT TC,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

NO immortality exists for humans, except for Christ, until people are raised with a body that is of glory, power, incorruptible. 

The mortal must put on immortality occurring at the last trumpet, but you speaking of immortality occurring before for some, such is not written such is a lie against the given clear truth.

Seriously TC, Christ was dead and he was raised to life being given a body of power, glory, incorruptible, and those that are his are promised the SAME.  But what you preach is that saints die and are resurrected UNLIKE Christ, WITHOUT a body, to then later receive a body. What a bunch of pure unscriptural garbage.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

ME: Paul says, 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so ill all be Mn Christ shaADE ALIVE.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise first:

YOU: The dead in Christ are those that died to self and put on Christ. The dead in Christ shall “APPEAR” first. Their old bodies of the flesh are crucified with the Messiah.  Then those alive but not fully dead in Christ shall die completely first to self and to their bodies.   They  then have new bodies.

ME: The DEAD in Christ, are those that are DEAD and they DIED having FAITH, and they shall be MADE ALIVE receiving eternal life because of their faith.

“THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST”, the DEAD NOT in CHRIST shall rise later, not until after the thousand year reign.

You are totally abusing scripture to fit your doctrine; it is such very BAD FORM TC.

ME: Paul called death as being asleep, being awake is to be ALIVE again. Paul knew exactly what I have said prior, when you DIE your next conscious moment is meeting the Lord receiving your eternal life with your incorruptible body of glory and power. It’s like you have gone to sleep, why they call death sleep, for when you are asleep you are not aware of TIME. When you WAKE from the DEAD INTO LIFE for you it is as if NO TIME has passed by.

YOU: Yeah, the conventional wisdom of this world you are. We rest in Christ, not in the ground with the rest of the dead.

ME: Conventional wisdom you say?? Are YOU SURE??  As they are the words of Jesus himself as well as David and Daniel, not just Paul, as a matter of fact death as sleep is all over the place in the OT and we read it also in the New.

How is it that God’s prophets and apostles spoke of DEATH AS SLEEP, and JESUS himself, and YOU have the AUDACITY to say I am of “conventional wisdom”, such audacity from you, could only come either by your absolute IGNORANCE or your absolute abuse of a passage trying to twist it to fit your doctrine, BAD FORM.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was BURIED in the city of David.

Psalms 17: As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness WHEN I AWAKE.

Acts 2:34 For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of DAVID also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,…. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is written AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, it is written AFTER Pentecost TC. According to you TC, Paul should be talking about meeting David and others where they currently are, but he doesn’t, he speaks of them all receiving their perfection at the same time.

TC, David is DEAD, he is asleep as Jesus calls it, David does not receive anything until Christ returns, for all the dead along with those who are alive when Christ returns receive the promise of eternal life together, on the same day.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that ARE Christ’s at his coming.

Paul is speaking about an order to a PARTICULAR THING, THAT ORDER is OF being raised from the dead RECEIVING a body that has eternal life TC.

You want to insert an order of men being raised from the dead without a body. SUCH DOES NOT EXIST in this passage, nor anywhere in this chapter or in the bible, your doctrine is totally delusional.

What does the prior verse say, 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME the firstfruits OF THEM that SLEPT?

EVERY MAN in HIS own order Paul speaks of  man receiving eternal life, Jesus is the first, ONE MAN that is resurrected. Do you know of any other men that were resurrected the same day as Jesus was TC?? NO of course not, Jesus is the FIRST. THEN as it is said, THEY, ALL of THEM that are Christ’s, are resurrected together into eternal life.

ANOTHER POINT TC,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

NO immortality exists for humans, except for Christ, until people are raised with a body that is of glory, power, incorruptible. 

The mortal must put on immortality occurring at the last trumpet, with Paul having directly spoke of it as receiving an incorruptible body, but you speak of immortality occurring before for some, and such is not written such is a lie against the given clear truth.

Seriously TC, Christ was dead and he was raised to life being given a body of power, glory, incorruptible, and those that are his are promised the SAME.  But what you preach is that saints die and are resurrected UNLIKE Christ, WITHOUT a body, to then later receive a body. What a bunch of pure unscriptural garbage.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Truthcomber]

Jodi,

 

I have explained and reconciled all of the scripture.  You have not.  I do not wish to drag this on for another thousand pages.  So if you want to believe that the saints will die and awaken at the coming of the Messiah, then that’s your problem.  I  certainly DO NOT. 

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to BE WITH CHRIST which is far better: 24 NETHER THE LESS TO ABIDE IN THE FLESH IS MORE NEEDFUL FOR YOU. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

Isaiah 49:8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a DAY OF SALVATION  have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant (me: New Testament) of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

2 Cor 6:22 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.)

 

[GeneBalthrop]

TC….the proclamation of the time of salvation, was simply saying that the salvation process was completed for all who believe. Jesus had died and rose again from the grave, the act of our salvation was over. But that does not change all the many scriptures that show we recieve our complete salvation at the return of Jesus as many, many, scriptures say,which you leave out of you renditions. ‘

Jodi is completely right, you force scripture to say what they infact do not say, and to say that people who have dies in the Lord are already alive living in spirit bodies is pure garbage. You remind me of those that were falsely preaching in Paul’s day , saying that the day of the lord has already come. They were false teachers also. 2 Ths 2:2-3.

Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

 

[Jodi]

Hi TC,

When Christ returns we enter into God’s rest, we no longer labor, we become an heir of God a joint heir with Christ receiving eternal life, a promise God had made before the world was. Those in Christ ALL receive this promise together when the trumpet is sounded on that great day.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? ….23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have SPOKEN of ANOTHER DAY. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Truthcomber]

HI Jodi,

 

You: When Christ returns we enter into God’s rest, we no longer labor, we become an heir of God a joint heir with Christ receiving eternal life, a promise God had made before the world was. Those in Christ ALL receive this promise together when the trumpet is sounded on that great day.
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

 

Me: Salvation is a multistep process. The first step is the baptism of the holy spirit.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for THE PROMISE of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

.Me: We are called the sons of God NOW. We receive salvation NOW if we endure to the end of our lives.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Me: we rejuvenate the spirit mind in us when we are baptized. It is risen from the dead.

New American Standard Bible
2 Cor 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge (728).
728.arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn’)
Definition: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Usage: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Me: This is the START of salvation.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Truthcomber]

Hi Jodi,

Me: next, we receive salvation at our individual deaths.

Matt 10:22...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order (5001): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

5001. tagma Usage: rank, division, an ORDERED SERIES.
From tasso; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or SUCCESSION— order.

[Author]

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