John 3 Born Again

This topic contains 37 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Anthony 2 days, 19 hours ago.

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  • #845218
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

    First of all, being “born of the spirit” does not mean “born again” as we shall see.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man (one already born of the flesh)  be born of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    John 7:38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (2836. koilia: soul) shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet ______; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    https://biblehub.com/greek/2836.htm
    2836. koilia5  in imitation of the Hebrew בֶּטֶן, tropically, the innermost part of a man, the soul, heart, as the seat of thought, feeling, choice (Job 15:35; Job 32:18 (the Sept. γαστήρ); Proverbs 18:8 (the Sept. ψυχή); (the Sept. σπλάγχνα); Habakkuk 3:16; Sir. 19:12 Sir. 51:21): John 7:38.

    Me: The phrase “for the Holy Ghost was not yet GIVEN” should be “for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET” in the Greek text. For the holy spirit was GIVEN as attested to by John and Baptist and others in the OT. These prior to Pentecost was born of the spirit but not yet born again. This was of the promise. No one was born of the holy spirit from Christ’s birth to Christ’s resurrection from the dead (John 20:22).

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Luke 1:15 for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even FROM his mother’s womb;

    Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost41 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

    Me: Even Elisabeth was born of the spirit before Christ was resurrected and glorified. This affected her already conceived child, John the Baptist who was probably born of the holy spirit at this time. Christ had received the holy spirit at conception, John while he was being developed in the womb of his mother.

    Old Testament prophets and John the Baptist had the spirit of God in them and where born of the spirit. They were not baptized of the holy spirit until Christ had resurrected from the dead. Then they became the BEGOTTEN sons of God. John the Baptist had the holy spirit in his mother’s womb and thus from his mother’s womb. But the Messiah was the only begotten Son of God at the time of his conception (John 3:16). This should not be confused with Christ as the first born from the dead (Rev 1:5, Heb 5:5).

    Below is another example of one born of the spirit before the resurrection and glorification of Christ or before being born again?

    Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now

    #845219
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Me: Bing born again can only happen after the glorification of the Messiah in heaven. Then we can be baptized of the spirit of God with the soul of Christ in it and resurrected into a new life.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the THE DEAD SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    1 Cor 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    Me:

    Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath (crucifixion) be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 THOU SHALT CALL and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    1 Cor 15:45 (NIV) So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Me Those alive at Pentecost and beyond, If they grow and endure to the end of their lives, will never die in their souls. they are born again sons of God—like Christ was when he was glorified in heaven (Heb 1:5-9).

    1 Peter 1:23 Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the (me: WORD OF GOD-Christ), which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Me: We do not become sons of God directly. Nowhere in the Old Testament is the phrase “sons of God” pertain to men, angels but not men. We become sons of God through Christ. We are adopted through him. This is by being baptized in the holy spirit. We die with Christ and are resurrect through him into a new life.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=sons+of+God&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham….16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Me: Of all the seeds (souls) of Abraham, from Adam to present, the one particular, Christ was to be salvation.

    1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the (me: Word of God-Christ), which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the KINGDOM OF CHRIST and of God.

    Me: Christ’s soul is now part of the seed of the spirit of God.

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the SPIRIT OF CHRIST which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    Isa 11:2 And the spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear (AWE: Prov 9:10) of the LORD;

    Me: The Spirit of Christ is one aspect of the spirit of God (Rev 5:6). It includes wisdom and knowledge and the FEAR OR AWE OF YHWH). It is of the seed of the soul Abraham.

    Zech 3:7 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. 8 Hear now, O Joshua (Jesus: salvation) the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be SEVEN EYES: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith YHWH of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH that I will raise unto David a RIGHTEOUS BRANCH, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    #845308
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

     

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and (2352:kai) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    Me: One cannot be born again unless one is baptized of the holy spirit, not just born of the spirit which the OT saints were.
    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm
    https://biblehub.com/greek/2532.htm
    kai: and, even, also
    Original Word: καί
    Part of Speech: Conjunction
    Transliteration: kai
    Phonetic Spelling: (kahee)
    Definition: and, even, also
    Usage: and, even, also, NAMELY

    Me: Thus, the below rendering  in conjunction with John 7:38 of the first post, I feel this is correct:

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water NAMELY (2352:kai) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Me: The soul of the Messiah is a spirit in the seven spirits of Revelation 5:6 and Zech 3:9.

    New American Standard Bible
    1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    #845314
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water NAMELY (2352:kai) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN

    Me: Had Christ been baptized with the holy spirit at Jordon?

    John 1:32 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same (JESUS) is he which BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Me: Who baptizes with the holy spirit? Did not John say it was JESUS that baptizes with the holy spirit and not John nor the Messiah’s  father. So the water baptism of John did not result in the Messiah receiving the holy spirit at time. Why?

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-35.htm

    Luke 1:35 (Greek text) And answering the angel said to her spirit holy shall come upon you and power of the Most High will overshadow you therefore the BEING BORN HOLY will be call Son of God

    Me: Because Jesus was conceived of the holy spirit in his mother’s womb.

    Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT not many days hence.

    Me: or would Christ himself baptize with the holy spirit?

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life… 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through JESUS CHRIST our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (eph ho: by which) all have sinned:

    Me: Christ was not baptized into his own death before he died.

    #845315
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

    Why did John the Baptist baptize with water?

    Quote: Water baptism (by full immersion in living water) was not a new concept to Jews. It was actually a common practice in those times. All pious Jews frequently immersed themselves in ritual pools known as “Mikveh’s”* to spiritually purify themselves. So the idea of water purification was not foreign to most Jews when John the Baptist came on the scene. They understood his message of repentance from sin and the corresponding outward act of purification by washing and immersion in a pool of water or river.

    1 Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    Me: I am not advocating believing the whole article but gleaning what is true.

    Matt 3:11 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    Luke 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    Me: The baptism of John was of repentance, not of receiving the holy spirit.

    #845316
     Truthcomber 
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    Please, Gene and Jodi, response to my posts here if you may by addressing the scriptures I cited and not going off on a tangent.

    #845320
     GeneBalthrop 
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    TC…..The holy spirit was from God the Father, and was placed on Jesus when he was baptized at the Jordan river, God the Father anointed Jesus with his Holy spirit , the same way he does us and  sent him out into the world to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God .

    We are also  baptized and then recieve his spirit truth, some have recieved the spirit before they were baptized like Cornelius and his family was and were baptized latter.   Old testement leader also recieved his Spirit as plainly shown in all scriptures.

    You trying to make it appear that Jesus is a spirit (being),  is another false teaching of yours. JESUS IS NOW AND ALWAYS WILL BE EXACTLY AS HE WAS WHEN HE WAS RESURECTED FROM THE GRAVE.  Trying to change that and make him out to be something else is simply not true. TC, why do you think you must change our simple text to meet your dogmas?

    You seem to change our scriptures more and more as you go along, TC  Jesus said “clearly” he was not a spirit,  after he was resurected.  There is “NO” scriptures showing any change of Jesus  from a living soul and this  is exactly what scripture says a living soul is,  “God formed a body from dust and breathed into his nostrils, the breath of life  and “man” (the complete man)  became a “LIVING SOUL”, nothing more nothing less.  No need to try to go around that, Jesus is a SON OF MAN, at least he thought he was,   saying it around one hundred times in scripture, your teachings of trying to make Jesus different then his brothers and sisters is simply a false teaching.  Jesus is a second Adam and Adam was a human being , and so is and was Jesus. When he returns he will return as a SON OF MAN, according to him. BUT then you people obviously don’t “believe him”.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

    #845352
     Truthcomber 
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    Gene,

     

    You: TC…..The holy spirit was from God the Father, and was placed on Jesus when he was baptized at the Jordan river, God the Father anointed Jesus with his Holy spirit , the same way he does us and sent him out into the world to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God .
    We are also baptized and then recieve his spirit truth, some have recieved the spirit before they were baptized like Cornelius and his family was and were baptized latter. Old testement leader also recieved his Spirit as plainly shown in all scriptures.

    Me:
    NO Gene, impossible. Christ was not baptized into his own death before he died for our sins. Christ did not need to be baptized for he had not sinned. He did not and does not have a carnal mind like Jodi and you falsely believe. Cornelius and the Old Testament saints had received of the holy spirit. But they needed to be baptized of the holy spirit. Water baptism is only symbolic of this. Christ is our living sacrifice.

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    Me: Christ is our sacrifice. We die and resurrect with him. No one was baptize with the holy spirit before this.

    #845353
     Truthcomber 
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    Gene:

     

    You: You trying to make it appear that Jesus is a spirit (being), is another false teaching of yours. JESUS IS NOW AND ALWAYS WILL BE EXACTLY AS HE WAS WHEN HE WAS RESURECTED FROM THE GRAVE. Trying to change that and make him out to be something else is simply not true. TC, why do you think you must change our simple text to meet your dogmas?

    You seem to change our scriptures more and more as you go along, TC Jesus said “clearly” he was not a spirit, after he was resurected. There is “NO” scriptures showing any change of Jesus from a living soul and this is exactly what scripture says a living soul is.

    Me: How sad.  How very, very sad.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Me: The apostles, unlike you and Jodi, believed that the Messiah would be transformed into a spirit in the image of his father . They must have thought that he had already before he told them to handle him. I guess there were no needles around to draw blood.

    2 Cor 3:17 HOW THE LORD (kurios) IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord (kurios) is, there is liberty.

    Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    #845354
     Truthcomber 
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    Gene,

     

    You: “God formed a body from dust and breathed into his nostrils, the breath of life and “man” (the complete man) became a “LIVING SOUL”, nothing more nothing less. No need to try to go around that, Jesus is a SON OF MAN, at least he thought he was, saying it around one hundred times in scripture, your teachings of trying to make Jesus different then his brothers and sisters is simply a false teaching. Jesus is a second Adam and Adam was a human being , and so is and was Jesus. When he returns he will return as a SON OF MAN, according to him. BUT then you people obviously don’t “believe him”.

    1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (life giving) SPIRIT.

    Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Me: The first Adam did not have ancestors but was created directly by God. But he had descendants.

    1 Cor 15:45 (NKJV) …The last Adam became a life-giving SPIRIT.

    Me: The last Adam did not have any ancestors either but was created directly by God. Neither do we have an ancestor or descendants, for the saints are created directly by God through Christ and are called the sons of God. God is our Father because we put on Christ. We are to become new creatures. We become BORN AGAIN  sons of God when we are resurrected from the dead and ascend into heaven as spirit beings.

    2 Cor 5:16 (NKJV) Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE KNOWN CHRIST ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, yet now WE KNOW HIM NO LONGER. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Me: We become born again sons of God by the resurrection from the dead.

     

     

    #845355
     Truthcomber 
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    Gene:

     

     

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (5590) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Me: Here “souls” mean hearts and minds. Robes were given to them in verse 11 for their new bodies at the first resurrection.

    https://biblehub.com/greek/5590.htm
    Definition: heart (2), heartily (1), life (36), lives (7), mind (1), minds (1), person (1), persons (3), soul (33), souls (14), suspense* (1), thing (1).

    Matt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

     

    #845379
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi All,

     

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Luke 24:39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit (5590) hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.’

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (5590) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    5590. psuché : Definition: heart (2), heartily (1), life (36), lives (7), mind (1), minds (1), person (1), persons (3), soul (33), souls (14), suspense* (1), thing (1).

    Me: Comparing 5590. psuché used in both verses, it refers to the heart and mind of one.

     

    Darby Bible Translation
    1 Cor 15:3 and God gives to it a body as he has pleased, and to each of the seeds its own body.

    Me: We are considering the soul seeds of Abraham and David and not their physical seeds.

    Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed (nature) of Abraham.

    Me: The focus here is on the spirit, not the flesh
    .
    Roman 1:4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Son of man); 4 And declared to be the SON OF GOD with POWER, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Me: Christ was made the Son of God fully by the resurrection of the dead and was glorified as a spirit being by his Father. HE WAS NO LONGER THE SON OF MAN.

    The only three places we see the son of man mentioned after his resurrection is below:

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Acts 7:56 and he said, ‘Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.’

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Rev 14:14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting LIKE TO A SON OF MAN, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, ONE LIKE to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle,

    Me:LIKE  unto a son of man” is not “son of man”.

    Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten (born) thee.

    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-37.htm

    Young’s Literal Translation
    1 Cor 15:37 and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain (seed), it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others40 and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;

    Me: The body that Christ received when he was glorified and the body we receive when we are glorified are of the seeds of the holy spirit and not our bodily seeds.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his SEED remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Me: We do not have descendants of the spiritual seed in us, only the physical. .

    #845409
     journey42 
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    Hi Truthcomber

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Jesus was not referring to water baptism, but the resurrection.

    Have to be “changed” before we can enter the kingdom of God. Changed into spirit. This is the real meaning of born again. Born flesh the first time, and born spirit the second time.

    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Are we like the wind?…..No. Angels are like the wind, spirit is like the wind because they are invisible. We will be like the angels (spirit) once our final change has come at the resurrection.

    #845411
     GeneBalthrop 
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    TC…..Why don’t you just say Jesus is a liar, so we are to believe,   he really isn’t the “root and offspring of king David”  according to you right?  

    You say he somehow was changed from a  mortal man to a spirit, being, not having a spritual body,  but a spirit being, which has “no” body”, so why does he in revelations still claim to be the root and offspring of King David?.

    I am slowing this down because you jump all over the place,  changing meanings of words to suite you religious idology.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

    #845412
     Ed J 
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    Hi Truthcomber

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Jesus was not referring to water baptism, but the resurrection.

    Have to be “changed” before we can enter the kingdom of God. Changed into spirit. This is the real meaning of born again. Born flesh the first time, and born spirit the second time.

    Hi Georgie,

    How do you account for this verse considering your belief?

    “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God,
    then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” (Matt 12:28)

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #845419
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Journey 42,

     

    You: John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus was not referring to water baptism, but the resurrection.

    Me: I agree. I never said otherwise. I said we should be born of the SPIRITUAL WATER in John 3:5 below.

     

    First of all, being “born of the spirit” does not mean “born again” as we shall see.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man (one already born of the flesh) be born of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    John 7:38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (2836. koilia: soul) shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet ______; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
    https://biblehub.com/greek/2836.htm
    2836. koilia5 in imitation of the Hebrew בֶּטֶן, tropically, the innermost part of a man, the soul, heart, as the seat of thought, feeling, choice (Job 15:35; Job 32:18 (the Sept. γαστήρ); Proverbs 18:8 (the Sept. ψυχή); (the Sept. σπλάγχνα); Habakkuk 3:16; Sir. 19:12 Sir. 51:21): John 7:38.

    Me: The phrase “for the Holy Ghost was not yet GIVEN” should be “for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET” in the Greek text. For the holy spirit was GIVEN as attested to by John and Baptist and others in the OT. Those prior to Pentecost was born of the spirit but was not born of the spiritual water.  So they could but not yet born again until then. This was of the promise. No one was born of the holy spirit from Christ’s birth to Christ’s resurrection from the dead (John 20:22) because of the work in progress of integrating the Messiah’s soul within the holy spirit.

    Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT not many days hence.

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life… 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Me: We are born of the spiritual water when we are baptized in the SPIRIT. That spiritual water is the humanity of Christ in the holy spirit fully at Pentecost. We are BORN ANGAIN of the Spiritual water in the holy spirit at our deaths. No one’s minds of the holy spirit in the OT went to heaven before this.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    Those that call upon Name of the Lord to save them can demonstrate this by being water baptized, if at all possible. But the true baptism is of the spirit.

    #845420
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 8
    • Total replies 1,118

    Gene,

     

    You: Why don’t you just say Jesus is a liar, so we are to believe, he really isn’t the “root and offspring of king David” according to you right?

    Me: WRONG as usually.

    Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but EVERY MAN a LIAR.

    Me: It is you that is calling Jesus a man like us and thus a liar.

    You: You say he somehow was changed from a mortal man to a spirit, being, not having a spritual body, but a spirit being, which has “no” body”, so why does he in revelations still claim to be the root and offspring of King David?

    Me: Yes Gene, but a spirit with a spirit body As I explained it above.  we are of the spiritual seed of the human mind of Abraham. So is David. We are not physical descendants of Abraham. Neither is Christ a physical descendant of David. He is a spirit descendant of David.  I had shown you above that Christ and his Father have the same body.  Christ is called the bright and morning star.  The righteous also shall shine like stars.

    Rev 22:16  I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning STAR.

    Me: He is not a flesh and bone being.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-3.htm

    Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine as bright as the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the STARS forever.

     

    Me: The Israelites today are of the spirit, not of flesh.

    Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;…7 Neither, because they are the seed (me: physical) of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac (Genesis 22:38:Israelites) shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    You: I am slowing this down because you jump all over the place, changing meanings of words to suite you religious idology.

    Me: No Gene, it is you and your Guru that avoid direct answers to the scripture quoted and go on a wild goose chase.

    #845421
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 8
    • Total replies 1,118

    Hi All,

     

    Why is Jesus called the second Adam if you say he came from Adam???

    The first Adam is called a son of God because he had no human ancestors (Luke 3:38). Christ was called the second Adam  for he too had no human ancestors. He was the seed of David through the spirit.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Me: Christ was made a little lower than angels. This is not being a human being like we are. He was a higher level of human being, a NEW ADAM. One that was still in the human realm but  that could die like the first Adam. Jesus is referred as the second Adam because he brings into existence children for his Father. We, as children of God have no ancestors. Like the angels of God, who are called the sons of God because of no ancestors, but each created directly by God. They are spirit beings. We are to become spirit beings also.

    http://creationhistory.com/nephilim.shtml

    Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Me: Angels should not marry. The fallen angels will be kicked out of heaven just before the messiah returns. Those righteous angels left in heaven do not marry. As righteous spirits we too will not marry. Righteous sons of God can only be created by adoption through Christ—by the baptism of the holy spirit—one by one. We are NOT sons of God by ancestry. King David became a son of God through Christ by Christ’s resurrection form the dead, not through his human ancestry.

    Matt 22:41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    2 Cor 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Me: Christ is now so much higher than the angels. He is the son of God and is of God.  There is only one true son of God, the Messiah.  We become sons of God through him.

    #845422
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 44
    • Total replies 16,910

    TC…….show us where a spirit itself is a “body” of anykind. The word body in scriptures always is speaking of a “physical” body, and spirit is always speaking of the non physical force that effects the thinking of the minds of a physical person.

    Jesus clearly said after his resruction he was not a spirit, and he said he “is” the “root and offspring” of King David .

    Your false teaching of not being a physical decendent of Abraham, and King David, is completely false,  scripture shows Jesus as a physical decendent of them both. Just as we are also decendents of flesh abd blood parents also.

    You are preaching things scripture does not say, trying to change the meanings of our text , dosen’t work, at least for those who know the truth.

    I really don’t believe when Jesus returns he is going to be an invisible spirit of somekind, nor do I believe the resurected Saint’s are invisible spirits either. I believe they are physical beings that are resurected, and given authority to rule with A PHYSICAL RESURECTED Jesus christ, who will sit on the throne of his ancestor, King David just as scripture clearly shows.

    God did not create man the way he did to just get rid of him or turn him into spirit, he made man as a living soul, and that is just the way man will always exist, the only difference will be a “body” that can’t die, a body which Jesus now has and we will also at the time of our resurection,  a body just like his after his resurection.  A flesh and bone body, that can live forever.   Or haven’t you ever read this,

    Rom 8:23….and not only they : but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption,  to wit, the “redemption”, of “our body.

    Rom 8:11….But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised Jesus from the dead shall “also” quicken you “mortal” body by the Spirit that dwells “in” you. 

    TC… quicken what? “your mortal body”   that’s what is going to be quickened or brought back to life.   Not a spirit, because spirit doesn’t die.  The resurection is all about the “body”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

     

    #845423
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 8
    • Total replies 1,118

    Gene,

    I have shown you all the scriptures.  Believing that Christ and we are  a flesh and bone entity after being resurrected into eternal life and glorified is being a bone head

    Rev 22:16 I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning STAR.

    Me: He is not a flesh and bone being.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-3.htm

    Dan 12:3 (NIV) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the STARS for ever and ever.

    Me: Neither Christ nor the church become flesh and bone creatures of the blue lagoon. What a “sick” version of what Christ became and what we are to become.  Christ inherited the spiritual seed of Abraham and David.  There were two thousand years between David and Christ.  Christ would not be the son of David in the flesh (many be the great, great, great, great…grandson of David, but not the son of David.

    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Gene, flesh includes the whole body not just the meat part.

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