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Hi barley,
This is not a “game” with any set “rules”.
If you can't tell from these 4 threads whether or not I believe the words in John 17:5 to be literal, then you haven't been paying attention to well.
I posted a scripture that I think clearly indicates Jesus' pre-existence. The PERSON Jesus says “the glory I HAD with you”. If you think this is in some way figurative, then lay it on us.
Your main reason for taking certain scriptures figuratively is “It doesn't make sense taken literally”. Is there a reason John 17:5 doesn't make sense to you literally? Forget your desires and wishes for Jesus to be just like you for a moment, and imagine he DID pre-exist. Wouldn't this scripture look exactly like proof of that?
No game. No rules. Just discussion. What's the worst that can happen? You say “It's figurative” and I say “It's literal”?
We can live with that, can't we?
BTW, there are MANY scriptures that I am undecided about “figurative” or “literal”. Does God sit on a literal throne in heaven……or is throne just a metaphor for “power and authority”? How do you know?
Will locusts with scorpion stingers really physically attack people, or is that just figurative? How do you know?
There are hundreds of them. Those two I listed don't really affect scripture or what we need to do. But others have a great impact. I go through this with Jesus being “begotten” by God. The trinitarians like to say it is a “figurative” begetting. They like to say he is the “figurative” firstborn of God.
So I'll ask you what I ask them: What in the context, or all of scripture for that matter, would lead you to believe it is “figurative”? If it isn't CLEARLY figurative, then it is most likely literal. And I can't for the life of me figure out what Jesus was saying in 17:5 if it isn't literal. Can you?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,14:31) because you say every thing was created (BY) Jesus, and then when that didn't work you changed it to (through)
Is that what REALLY happened Gene? Or have I already explained that I was quoting a translation that used “by”? Haven't I already explained that I NEVER liked the word “by” in those scriptures? I prefer the NWT, which says “by means of”.Gene:
Quote You and the rest of the Preexistences haven't even began to deal or explain any logical reason for GOD to even do things the way you suppose he did.
And why should we Gene? Are we God? Do we have insights into why God chose to do certain things certain ways like you apparently do? Do you realize that is your ONLY defense of Jesus not pre-existing……because it doesn't make sense to your puny human brain? How can you presume to tell us that scripture is wrong because “IMO, God wouldn't have done it that way”?And you didn't answer the question I asked:
Just out of curiosity Gene, how do you balance the “alone” and “by myself” with Hebrews 1:10?
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.”mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,13:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,14:31) because you say every thing was created (BY) Jesus, and then when that didn't work you changed it to (through)
Is that what REALLY happened Gene? Or have I already explained that I was quoting a translation that used “by”? Haven't I already explained that I NEVER liked the word “by” in those scriptures? I prefer the NWT, which says “by means of”.Gene:
Quote You and the rest of the Preexistences haven't even began to deal or explain any logical reason for GOD to even do things the way you suppose he did.
And why should we Gene? Are we God? Do we have insights into why God chose to do certain things certain ways like you apparently do? Do you realize that is your ONLY defense of Jesus not pre-existing……because it doesn't make sense to your puny human brain? How can you presume to tell us that scripture is wrong because “IMO, God wouldn't have done it that way”?And you didn't answer the question I asked:
Just out of curiosity Gene, how do you balance the “alone” and “by myself” with Hebrews 1:10?
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.”mike
Hi Mike,Would Hebrews 1:10 make more sense to you if the translators had capitalized LORD?
Heb.1:10 And, Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth(Job 38:4);
and the heavens are the works of thine hands(Isaiah 44:24):This verse traces back to Psalm 102:24-25…
Psalm 102:24-25 I said, O my God(YHVH), take me not away in the midst of my days:
thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation
of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.Can you not see Hebrews 1:10 applies to YHVH rather than Jesus?
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer,
and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā .hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,14:21) Can you not see Hebrews 1:10 applies to YHVH rather than Jesus?
I have wondered, and even argued that point against both Jack and Keith. But Paul is talking about Jesus before and after that quote, and he uses the word “and” to connect 8-9 which is clearly about the Son to 10.That's pretty strong evidence that he is continuing to talk about Jesus. Not SOLID PROOF, but strong evidence.
What do you think?
mike
Hi Mike,
The Son helps establish God's throne, that's what's being conveyed in Hebrews 1:8-10.
Hebrews 1:8-10 But unto the Son, Thy throne, O God(YHVH), is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou(Jesus) hast loved
righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (YHVH), thy God, hath anointed
thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, LORD (YHVH), in the
beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:I hope this clarifies what others (have done) who inadvertently distort God's word!
They have done the same (butchery of God's word) with Col.1:1-20 as well!Theomatics(numbers relating to God) in conjunction with
The AKJV Bible text illustrates who אלהים ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63 is!
The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63; “YHVH is GOD”.ĔL-ō-Hêêm(63) = YHVH(63)
Genesis 1:1 In 23 the 33 beginning 81 God 26 created 56 the 33 heaven 55 = 307
[23+33+81+26+33+55=307(63rd Prime number)] Theomatically equaling YHVH(63)!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,13:49) Hi barley, This is not a “game” with any set “rules”.
If you can't tell from these 4 threads whether or not I believe the words in John 17:5 to be literal, then you haven't been paying attention to well.
I posted a scripture that I think clearly indicates Jesus' pre-existence. The PERSON Jesus says “the glory I HAD with you”. If you think this is in some way figurative, then lay it on us.
Your main reason for taking certain scriptures figuratively is “It doesn't make sense taken literally”. Is there a reason John 17:5 doesn't make sense to you literally? Forget your desires and wishes for Jesus to be just like you for a moment, and imagine he DID pre-exist. Wouldn't this scripture look exactly like proof of that?
No game. No rules. Just discussion. What's the worst that can happen? You say “It's figurative” and I say “It's literal”?
We can live with that, can't we?
BTW, there are MANY scriptures that I am undecided about “figurative” or “literal”. Does God sit on a literal throne in heaven……or is throne just a metaphor for “power and authority”? How do you know?
Will locusts with scorpion stingers really physically attack people, or is that just figurative? How do you know?
There are hundreds of them. Those two I listed don't really affect scripture or what we need to do. But others have a great impact. I go through this with Jesus being “begotten” by God. The trinitarians like to say it is a “figurative” begetting. They like to say he is the “figurative” firstborn of God.
So I'll ask you what I ask them: What in the context, or all of scripture for that matter, would lead you to believe it is “figurative”? If it isn't CLEARLY figurative, then it is most likely literal. And I can't for the life of me figure out what Jesus was saying in 17:5 if it isn't literal. Can you?
mike
Mikebol,Since this isn't a game with any set rules, and you say it is a discussion, I want to know why you don't have any rules for Biblical interpretation.
Do you determine what is true just because it feels right to you?
What rules do you follow to determine that you are not just imagining a right conclusion?
How do you determine that you have reached a conclusion objectively and not prejudiciously?
Look at John 17:2, “As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”
Jesus Christ has been given power over all flesh. What does flesh mean? It is literal or figurative? Flesh means what?
1. Meat to eat? As in animal meat?
2. What can be learned through the five senses?
3. The other half of the phrase, “flesh and blood”? If so, what is this phrase signifying? Believers are three part beings, I Thessalonians 5:23, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
See, Paul refers to three parts: body, soul, and spirit. Flesh and blood means what?4. The body part of a believer's composition. See number 3.
5. Are there other ways flesh is used in scripture?
Since JC has power over all flesh, what kind of power? From the context in this very verse, JC has the power to give eternal life to that flesh that God has decided to give to JC.
Flesh must be a figure of speech pointing to a human who chooses to believe.
Why do I bring this up?
Let us look at John 17:4, “I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”
Had Jesus Christ fulfilled all the work that God gave him to do? Had JC been tortured and nailed to a tree yet? Did God raise him from the dead yet?
If we take this verse literally, then JC must be saying that he did all the works that he needed to have done up to that point in time. The worst was yet to come. Likewise, the best was yet and is still yet to come.
If we take this verse figuratively, JC must be saying that he is totally prepared to finish all of the works that God has planned out for him, although they are not done yet. He is saying “that they are as good as done.” This is a figure of speech called anticipation. Some thing is not done, but it is anticipated that it will be done.
Another possible angle is that Jesus Christ is simply applying the rules of believing that he set forth in Mark 11:23, “For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.”
Namely,
1. You say the promise of God
2. You believe the promise of God, (without doubting)
3. God will bring it to pass.
Look at John 17:6,
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”
JC has manifested God's name. What is he talking about? Manifesting God's name? What in God's name is God's name?
Did JC make a big billboard with God's name on it for all to see?
Was God's name somehow been hidden and JC manifested it for all to see? What is God's name? Bob? Jehovah, Elohim? El?
There must be a figure of speech here as well. If I tell you my name you have learned almost nothing about me. My name is virtually meaningless if my name does not reflect my character.
As a figure of speech name must mean not literally a name,but all that that name represents. Just as being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is referring to all the accomplished works of Jesus Christ.
Look at this phrase,
“thou gavest them me; “How is it that God gave them me? Is this a reference to John 3:16, Or should it read God gave them TO me?
From the context the meaning is more clear that “God gave them TO me.”
I have shown you three verses in the immediate context of John 17:5.
Will you agree that these three verses have to have figures of speeches in them for them to make logical sense?
I showed that three of five verses John 17:2-6 clearly have figurative language in them.
Why would I not want to consider if John 17:5 is figurative or literal?
Since the figure of speech anticipation is used in verse 4, is there any reason for me to doubt that the same figure could not have been used in verse 5?
How do you determine if a verse is figurative or literal?
If you have no rules to offer, then you need to come up with some. We need to start there, if we are to rightly divide the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15.
If you have no rules to objectively study the word of God, then there is no point in me discussing any verse of the Bible with you. Why not?
Because I have no desire to argue.
Because it would only be your opinion against mine
Because even if I was objective, it would seem to be your opinion against mine.
barley
Quote (barley @ Sep. 08 2010,15:44) Mikebol, Look at John 17:6,
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”
JC has manifested God's name. What is he talking about? Manifesting God's name? What in God's name is God's name?
Did JC make a big billboard with God's name on it for all to see?
Was God's name somehow been hidden and JC manifested it for all to see? What is God's name? Bob? Jehovah, Elohim? El?
There must be a figure of speech here as well. If I tell you my name you have learned almost nothing about me. My name is virtually meaningless if my name does not reflect my character.
barley
Hi Barley,You must understand the meaning of Jesus name in Hebrew… (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע])
Since Jesus(יהשוע) has instituted God's(יהוה) salvation,
it is apparent he has indeed manifested God's Name YÄ(יה)!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi barley,
I see NOTHING figurative anywhere in John 17:2-6. Jesus says exactly what he means. If you want, we can discuss why YOU would think any of those verses are figurative. Is that what it will take for you to just answer the question of why you think 17:5 must be figurative? Because I see this as nothing more than a “I can't really intelligently answer to that scripture, so I must stall under the pretense of wanting to know every single step Mike takes to come to his conclusions”.
It's been done before by Martian…….just about the time he ran away. “What? Mike doesn't want to use a bunch of time and words explaining this and that? Okay, that's my excuse to put my tail between my legs and run.”
You said:
Quote Because it would only be your opinion against mine Actually, it would be a case of a literal scripture that you have no reason whatsoever to think is figurative…..except that if it was figurative, you could hang on to your doctrine. I think 17:5 is literal. If you can't come up with an answer to why you think it is figurative, then just answer me in the Phil 2 thread. I noticed you ignored that one. And there is no “figurative” wiggle room for you there.
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,15:29) Hebrews 1:8-10 But unto the Son, Thy throne, O God(YHVH), is for ever and ever:
Hi Ed,It says, “But about the Son He says, 'Your throne O God…..'”
The “God” here is NOT YHVH, but the Son. That's what the words say Ed.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,16:16) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,15:29) Hebrews 1:8-10 But unto the Son, Thy throne, O God(YHVH), is for ever and ever:
Hi Ed,1) It says, “But about the Son He says, 'Your throne O God…..'”
2) The “God” here is NOT YHVH, but the Son. That's what the words say Ed.
mike
Hi Mike,he saith are added words (in Heb.1:8) that are not in the original Greek texts; removing them adds clarity.
I also took the liberty of removing 'two commas' to help you see what the text is really saying.1) Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son, Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Rev.3:21)2) 'You” mean: that's what 'you' interpret the words to mean.
Words don't say anything, their just written on paper.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,14:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,13:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,14:31) because you say every thing was created (BY) Jesus, and then when that didn't work you changed it to (through)
Is that what REALLY happened Gene? Or have I already explained that I was quoting a translation that used “by”? Haven't I already explained that I NEVER liked the word “by” in those scriptures? I prefer the NWT, which says “by means of”.Gene:
Quote You and the rest of the Preexistences haven't even began to deal or explain any logical reason for GOD to even do things the way you suppose he did.
And why should we Gene? Are we God? Do we have insights into why God chose to do certain things certain ways like you apparently do? Do you realize that is your ONLY defense of Jesus not pre-existing……because it doesn't make sense to your puny human brain? How can you presume to tell us that scripture is wrong because “IMO, God wouldn't have done it that way”?And you didn't answer the question I asked:
Just out of curiosity Gene, how do you balance the “alone” and “by myself” with Hebrews 1:10?
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.”mike
Hi Mike,Would Hebrews 1:10 make more sense to you if the translators had capitalized LORD?
Heb.1:10 And, Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth(Job 38:4);
and the heavens are the works of thine hands(Isaiah 44:24):This verse traces back to Psalm 102:24-25…
Psalm 102:24-25 I said, O my God(YHVH), take me not away in the midst of my days:
thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation
of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.Can you not see Hebrews 1:10 applies to YHVH rather than Jesus?
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer,
and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā .hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ…………..You have it right, it was the LORD GOD that in the beginning created everything alone and By himself. They try to say that the lower case Lord meant Jesus, but they refuse to understand that (ALL) Greek texts until 700 Ad were translated with Upper Case Letter, there exist (NO) lower case letters that was written before that time. Again Just preexistences forcing the text to meet their dogmas. GOD alone created everything by Himself and there was no one with Him. GOD consist of (SEVEN SPIRITS) these are the eyes of God and They are what he uses to counsel his own will and He empowers them to create all things that are created, that is the “LET US” mentioned in Genesis. IMOpeace and love………………………….gene
Mike………..You say we are speculating about Jesus not preexistence and Not creating everything, But is is You and the Preexistences who are the big Speculators Here, We at least employ LOGIC to our Reasonings, while you use (MYSTERY RELIGIONS) to achieve your false assumptions. You reject the Trinity but hold on to Preexistences , you have come Half way out of the false teaching but you still are preaching against Jesus and still do not realize it. Luke warn will not cut it Mike, I encourage you to come (ALL) the way OUT brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 09 2010,04:09) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,14:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,13:58) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,14:31) because you say every thing was created (BY) Jesus, and then when that didn't work you changed it to (through)
Is that what REALLY happened Gene? Or have I already explained that I was quoting a translation that used “by”? Haven't I already explained that I NEVER liked the word “by” in those scriptures? I prefer the NWT, which says “by means of”.Gene:
Quote You and the rest of the Preexistences haven't even began to deal or explain any logical reason for GOD to even do things the way you suppose he did.
And why should we Gene? Are we God? Do we have insights into why God chose to do certain things certain ways like you apparently do? Do you realize that is your ONLY defense of Jesus not pre-existing……because it doesn't make sense to your puny human brain? How can you presume to tell us that scripture is wrong because “IMO, God wouldn't have done it that way”?And you didn't answer the question I asked:
Just out of curiosity Gene, how do you balance the “alone” and “by myself” with Hebrews 1:10?
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.”mike
Hi Mike,Would Hebrews 1:10 make more sense to you if the translators had capitalized LORD?
Heb.1:10 And, Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth(Job 38:4);
and the heavens are the works of thine hands(Isaiah 44:24):This verse traces back to Psalm 102:24-25…
Psalm 102:24-25 I said, O my God(YHVH), take me not away in the midst of my days:
thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation
of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.Can you not see Hebrews 1:10 applies to YHVH rather than Jesus?
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer,
and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD that maketh all things;
that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā .hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ…………..You have it right, it was the LORD GOD that in the beginning created everything alone and By himself. They try to say that the lower case Lord meant Jesus, but they refuse to understand that (ALL) Greek texts until 700 Ad were translated with Upper Case Letter, there exist (NO) lower case letters that was written before that time. Again Just preexistences forcing the text to meet their dogmas. GOD alone created everything by Himself and there was no one with Him. GOD consist of (SEVEN SPIRITS) these are the eyes of God and They are what he uses to counsel his own will and He empowers them to create all things that are created, that is the “LET US” mentioned in Genesis. IMOpeace and love………………………….gene
Hi Gene,There's no need for you to scold them all for getting it so wrong;
Lucifer has had plenty of time to manipulate their “Free Will” minds!The systems of religion are force to be reckoned with! (Rev.18:2-5)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.They have done the same butchery with Col.1:16-7,
they 'falsely' attribute these verses to Jesus as well!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,16:32) 1) Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son, Thy throne O God is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Rev.3:21)
Hi Ed,What does that mean then? “But to the Son…..(and then Paul just out of the blue starts talking about God?)
But to the Son WHAT? What is “unto the Son”?
Do you see it is not a complete thought? It's like I said, “But to Gene, “Your throne Ed is cool”. The last part is a complete thought in that Ed's throne is cool, but the first part is incomplete and out of place. What did I mean by “But unto Gene…..”?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,04:32) They have done the same butchery with Col.1:16-7,
they 'falsely' attribute these verses to Jesus as well!
Hi Ed,Col 1:15 is definitely about Jesus, right? And 16 and 17 are about “someone”, then verse 18 starts off with the word “AND”……and 18 is also definitely about Jesus, right?
1:15 He is the image of God….
1:16 For by him all things were created….
1:17 He is before all things…..
1:18 AND he is the firstborn from the dead….Doesn't that “AND” indicate that Paul is speaking of the same person in 1:18 that he started speaking about in 1:15?
mike
MIke……….. Paul was not talking out of the blue as you assume he was, The reason God said “thy throne O God is an everlasting throne” is because it is (GOD'S SEVEN SPIRITS) that are on the head of Lamb WITH POWER, Shown in Revelations, that is the builder of that throne. Like Jesus said the Father is (IN) Me and (HE) does the works> So if GOD is doing it (IN) Jesus then GOD is doing it right. But this Kingdom is at the end of the thousand years turned completely Back to GOD the Father , “THAT GOD MAY BE ALL AND IN ALL”. GOD CONCEDER'S US TEMPLES HE CAN LIVE IN.
peace and love……………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 09 2010,04:09) GOD consist of (SEVEN SPIRITS) these are the eyes of God and They are what he uses to counsel his own will and He empowers them to create all things that are created, that is the “LET US” mentioned in Genesis.
Hi Gene,1. So is the Holy Spirit one OF the seven, or is it seven PLUS the Holy Spririt?
2. Are God's spirits OF him as our spirits are OF us, or are all seven spirits separate beings from God?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,11:17) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2010,04:32) They have done the same butchery with Col.1:16-7,
they 'falsely' attribute these verses to Jesus as well!
Hi Ed,Col 1:15 is definitely about Jesus, right? And 16 and 17 are about “someone”, then verse 18 starts off with the word “AND”……and 18 is also definitely about Jesus, right?
1:15 He is the image of God….
1:16 For by him all things were created….
1:17 He is before all things…..
1:18 AND he is the firstborn from the dead….Doesn't that “AND” indicate that Paul is speaking of the same person in 1:18 that he started speaking about in 1:15?
mike
Mike……….Here is something to think about.Col 1:15….> He (Jesus is the (IMAGE) of God
1:16….> For By Him (GOD) were all things created. Yes and BY GOD, Jesus was (CREATED) into HIS (IMAGE)
1:17….> And Jesus is before all things (put there by God)
1:18….> and he Jesus is the first (Born) from the dead.
Mike all this is a work of GOD the Father Alone and BY HIMSELF. Yes even Jesus is a Work of GOD. He preordained Him and created Him and sanctified Him and raised Him from the Grave as the (First ) Born into the kingdom of God, all this is from ONE GOD.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 09 2010,11:20) MIke……….. Paul was not talking out of the blue as you assume he was, The reason God said “thy throne O God is an everlasting throne” is because it is (GOD'S SEVEN SPIRITS) that are on the head of Lamb WITH POWER, Shown in Revelations, that is the builder of that throne. Like Jesus said the Father is (IN) Me and (HE) does the works> So if GOD is doing it (IN) Jesus then GOD is doing it right. But this Kingdom is at the end of the thousand years turned completely Back to GOD the Father , “THAT GOD MAY BE ALL AND IN ALL”. GOD CONCEDER'S US TEMPLES HE CAN LIVE IN. peace and love……………………………….gene
Gene,Your understanding of the WHOLE Bible that you seem to have to list in every single post to me is nice, but it usually doesn't answer the one single question I asked. And this is another case of that.
You keep listing many of your beliefs and how you understand scripture, and that is fine and dandy. But in the process, could you just once in a while actually answer the question I asked?
The question this time is: What does Paul mean by saying “But unto the Son” right before he starts talking about God creating everything? How do those words, “But unto the Son” fit in? It's like he started a sentence about the Son, but then stopped abruptly to talk about God.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 09 2010,11:34) Mike……….Here is something to think about. Col 1:15….> He (Jesus is the (IMAGE) of God
1:16….> For By Him (GOD) were all things created. Yes and BY GOD, Jesus was (CREATED) into HIS (IMAGE)
1:17….> And Jesus is before all things (put there by God)
1:18….> and he Jesus is the first (Born) from the dead.
Hi Gene,So you disagree with Ed? Ed thinks both 16 AND 17 are about God, but you think just verse 16 is?
mike
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