JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Proclaimer]

To WIT,

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)

Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents?

Try these:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

It appears that God uses Christ in all (not some) created things, good things that is. That includes the universe and principalities. So if we are obedient to Christ then we are obedient to God. If we honour the son, we honour the Father.

Sure God may be doing stuff outside of creation that we have no idea about. But within creation he does all through his son because that is what he chose. He created all things through Christ and for him. Love is the real reason that God does this. He created all things for his son and so he also did it all through him.

We in turn are to be obedient to Christ as he is our head. God is Christ's head. So if I am obedient to Christ I am obedient to God.

Do you understand that God works through his son. He even sent his own Spirit to us, through his son.

[Proclaimer]

To WIT,

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)

Zechariah 14: “4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.  And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.” Either this will literally happen, in the last days, and the Mount of Olives will be ripped in two, or this is a metaphor for some extraordinary event that will take place.  In either case, I have no problem with Yahweh accomplishing this Himself.  Why do you?

The point is that God dwells in his son. So God is in Christ. But you cannot say that God is finite or that he is over there or he has left heaven and come to the earth or he is now fully contained in a body. God is eternal and he wants to dwell in all. He only withdraws himself from all because of sin.

So yes God does all things, but through his representives. The only thing I can think of that the Father did through no one was speak about his son in the presence of witnesses. So sure God can do anything that he wants and is not incapable.

But it is written: No man has seen God and no one can see him.  But it is also written that every eye shall see him. Who? Christ, not God.

God's ways are not our ways, so we shouldn't think of God as a man or a body. He is Spirit and invisible and he wants to dwell inside all of his (good or redeemed) creation.

Perhaps in that way we make God smaller than he is by saying that he will come fully in a body to earth. Where as I would teach that he dwells in Christ and he is seated on his throne in heaven and by his Spirit he can dwell anywhere that is good.

[liljon]

1 tim 3:16 And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
God created world Alone
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord that redeems you, and who formed you from the womb: I am the Lord that performs all things; I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
Jesus revealed the Father to men. He was filled with God's Spirit.
“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”
In fact Jesus revealed all aspects of the Father's nature and powers.
Coll 2.9″ In Christ the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form”

How do you interpret Heb 1.2 and 10 and Jn 1.3?

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick,

Quote

Why be God and do the work yourself?

Genesis 2:
“2And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

T8,

Quote

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49) Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents? Try these: Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Colossians 1 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Nice job.  However, even if we assume that these passages are talking about a pre-existent Son, this still falls short of proving the validity of the scriptural tool that Nick is using.  These passages would only imply that Yahweh made all things through His son, not that He does all things through His son.  In fact, you and Nick both say that He uses other agents in His work, and I would agree with that.  So to prove that Nick's tool is valid, we need to see a verse that says that Yahweh does all things, in creation, through agents alone, and never Himself.

Nick and T8,

Let me clarify one thing.  I did NOT mean to suggest that Yahweh would come down in a physical body and stand on the Mount of Olives when I was discussing the Zechariah passage.  I assumed that we all agreed that Yahweh is not a physical being.  All references to Yahweh having body parts are metaphoric, in my opinion.  However, to say that His feet will tread somewhere, in my opinion, is to say that He is going to personally accomplish some act through His supernatural powers.  For example, in the following passage, which we have all quoted a thousand times to dispell the notion of the Trinity, who is actually doing the work:

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said to my Lord,
      “Sit at My right hand,
      Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Is Yeshua both sitting at Yahweh's right hand and also defeating his own enemies?  I think it is clear that Yahweh intervenes in His creation personally – not in a physical body, but by means that He alone understands.

Quote

Your interest seems to be to tear down and not to build?

That's a quote from Nick, but I think you've said a similar thing T8.  I don't disagree with your assessment.  Less than a year ago, I discovered that my faith was based more on tradition than Truth, and I have been turning over every rock in my faith to make sure that it is from God's word and not from men.  I personally believe that some of the things that you both teach do not stand up under the scrutiny of the entire voice of scripture, and I have been on a quest to prove it.  However, I have not been offering anything beneficial in exchange, so I think I may take my searching offline until I truly have solid footing in my own faith, and can share it constructively with others.  I thank you both for opening yourselves up to my criticisms, and I pray that we all end up on the same side some day.  I will certainly keep checking the forum, as I have found lots of wisdom espoused in here, but I will keep my posting to a minimum for the next little while.  Keep up the faith!  

[liljon]

But God Created he world ALONE meaning Jesus is God
Heb 1:2,10 and John 1:3 means exacltly what is says

he created through jesus.

[NickHassan]

I understand. But was he talking about himself when he spoke of the Father. Are you saying that when creation occured Yeshua did not exist or he was called the Father then. It gets so confusing don't you see?

[liljon]

Yeshua always existed
Micah 5:2
Isaiah 40:28
and is YHWH so he is our father but when he came to earth he became a Son and sumbmitted himself
and to a Trinitarian it wouldn't be confusing because “God the Father” wouldn't be the same “person” as Jesus

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Ps 110
” The Lord said to my lord
'Sit at MY Right Hand until I make your enemies your footstool'
The scepter of YOUR power the Lord will stretch forth from Zion
'Rule in the midst of your enemies '
Yours is princely power in the day of your birth, in holy spendour ;before the daystar like the dew, I have begotten you.
The Lord has sworn and he will not repent ;
'you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchisidek'
The Lord is at YOUR right hand ;he will crush kings on the day of His wrath..”

Beautiful words

So this is about Yeshua after his ascension. Only then was he raised to sit at the Right Hand of the Father[Eph 1.20, Heb 1.3,12.2, Heb 10.2.1 Pet 3.22,Coll 3.1etc]

It also speaks of the begetting of the Son of God in spendour in princely power prior to the creation of the Sun[daystar].

God is the source of all power and is not inactive. He responds to needs whether spoken in prayer or not and He organises the defeat of the enemies of Yeshua before he comes as King[110.1-2].Yeshua showed God would reply to prayer through sending angels to fight for him in Mt 26.53.

But God remains in Heaven.

But he also supplies the power to Yeshua with power as His power is also at the right hand of Yeshua[v8]. Yeshua will rule with the Power of God.

Ps 2 says”let us conspire against the Lord AND HIs anointed”
“I am in my Father and my Father is in me”

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 07 2005,17:21)

Nice job.  However, even if we assume that these passages are talking about a pre-existent Son, this still falls short of proving the validity of the scriptural tool that Nick is using.  These passages would only imply that Yahweh made all things through His son, not that He does all things through His son.  In fact, you and Nick both say that He uses other agents in His work, and I would agree with that.  So to prove that Nick's tool is valid, we need to see a verse that says that Yahweh does all things, in creation, through agents alone, and never Himself.

To WIT,

I am not sure what the tool is that you are talking about, but if we look at the way the visions in the Book of Revelation were presented to John we can see that it was an angel that gave it to him. So God used an angel, but we can also see that he used his son and it was the son that gave it to the angel.

I think that this shows us an important pattern that when understood we can reconcile those scriptures that talk about seeing God and the others that say that no one can see God.

I am not God that is for sure and I can only speak on his behalf that which he has shown me. But it appers to me that the Father is capable of anything, but he chooses to use his creation regarding things in creation. He seems to involve his son in all matters regarding creation and authorities after all God created all things for him. (Things as in created). That includes us and the physical universe and perhaps more as there a surely things that God created that we do not know about.  

I cannot see the point of debating this. I acknowledge that God can do anything and is not restricted. But I also see in scripture God expressing his will through willing created subjects, but primarily in his son whom he begat before the worlds existed.

For one thing, God created the universe through his son and for him. So even from the very beginning God was doing his stuff through someone.

To me it's like we are ants and God is the President. (An underestimation of course). So how can an ant understand a president without some kind of mediator. Jesus is that mediator between us an God. Jesus is the vine of which we are the branches. So I fail to see how a branch has direct contact with God without going through the vine.

All our substance comes from the vine and the vine got it's life from God. So even God's life is filtered to us through his son. The son declared “I am the life”.

I just see a divine order that is largely ignored because of the Trinity doctrine. The Trinity doctrine makes people believe that they can reach any member of this 3 person God. But Jesus said when we pray to the Father do it in his name. He also said to do all in his name.

I think the reason for this is taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

It also says that in John 10:1
“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.

So it appears that a man who wants to reach God his own way is considered as a robber. So what happens when we look at it the other way, as God reaching down to man. Does he not reach down to us through his son too?

[Proclaimer]

Hi WIT,

I have a post for you on the previous page too.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 07 2005,17:21)

Let me clarify one thing.  I did NOT mean to suggest that Yahweh would come down in a physical body and stand on the Mount of Olives when I was discussing the Zechariah passage.  I assumed that we all agreed that Yahweh is not a physical being.  All references to Yahweh having body parts are metaphoric, in my opinion.  However, to say that His feet will tread somewhere, in my opinion, is to say that He is going to personally accomplish some act through His supernatural powers.  For example, in the following passage, which we have all quoted a thousand times to dispell the notion of the Trinity, who is actually doing the work:

I agree and how does he do it? Through Christ. As it is written, “every eye shall see him whom they have pierced”.

This was my point.

[Anonymous]

I'd like to comment on “logos”, which is “divine intellegence expressed”…in the beginning was the logos = in the beginning God's intellegence was expressed…His intellegence was predestined because He saw the end from the beginning

(Isa 46:9. 10) “remember the former things of old: for I am God, & there is none else; I am God, & there is none like me,  declaring (or speaking, which is His intellegence expressed) the end from the beginning (predestination), and from ancient times (the beginning) the things that are not yet done (predestined), saying, My cousel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure”

we are told what His pleasure is & His reason for creation in (Gen 1:3)…”let there be light”…God is light & He desired “His express image”…His express image is His son & His son was predestined from the beginning & in the light which is the son He made all things…all things were made for the son, His express image…Adam was not that son but was made in his likeness…Adam & all mankind was made for the son…it was predestined

(psalm 2:8) “ask of Me (YVAH, the Father), & I will give you the heathen for your (the son, Messiah) inheritance”…the son, Messiah, is the hier of all creation & it was predestined & covenanted from the beginning…(heb 1: 2) God “in these last days (the fullfillment of time) has spoken unto us by His son, whom He has appointed heir of all things” [/U]

“in the beginning was the logos (divine intellegence expressed which was the predestination of the son, ie, the light), and the logos was with God (the light with which & for which He made all things, the anointing set apart for the son, Messiah), & the logos was God (His express image which He predestined to be begotten of flesh)

God spoke the light into existance from the beginning & the light was in Him before He spoke it & the light was the beloved son, the anointed one (anointed to be one with God & fully joined with light by light, ie, that anointing)…when God brought forth the seed of the woman who was a virgin out of covenant with Abraham & called in Isaaac, that light was made flesh & the logos spoken by God was begotten as He said from the beginning

Jesus (Yahshua) was the purpose for all things & all things were made for him & by the anointing that was his before he was ever concieved

God bless us all with understanding & unity that we may fulfill the prayer of our Lord Messiah to be one with the Father as he is…it is our gift of salvation for which we were predestined to worship & glorify God & our Lord Messiah, who bought us with his own life's blood

[Anonymous]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2005,03:12)

Hi WIT, I have a post for you on the previous page too. Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 07 2005,17:21) Let me clarify one thing.  I did NOT mean to suggest that Yahweh would come down in a physical body and stand on the Mount of Olives when I was discussing the Zechariah passage.  I assumed that we all agreed that Yahweh is not a physical being.  All references to Yahweh having body parts are metaphoric, in my opinion.  However, to say that His feet will tread somewhere, in my opinion, is to say that He is going to personally accomplish some act through His supernatural powers.  For example, in the following passage, which we have all quoted a thousand times to dispell the notion of the Trinity, who is actually doing the work: I agree and how does he do it? Through Christ. As it is written, “every eye shall see him whom they have pierced”. This was my point.

HI WIT…why dont you believe that God has a body of His own? I dont believe He is a flesh body but He is an incorruptible spirit body & He has a spirit which is holy…we are made in His image & likeness…to be made in His image means He has a body which has form & Ezekial saw Him (ezek 1: 26-28)…His appearance was that of a man, which means He has the form of a human body…Jesus was His express image begotten of flesh

I'm not sure how to use this site as I have only posted to one forum

[Anonymous]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 06 2005,08:48)

To WIT, Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49) Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents? Try these: Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Colossians 1 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. It appears that God uses Christ in all (not some) created things, good things that is. That includes the universe and principalities. So if we are obedient to Christ then we are obedient to God. If we honour the son, we honour the Father. Sure God may be doing stuff outside of creation that we have no idea about. But within creation he does all through his son because that is what he chose. He created all things through Christ and for him. Love is the real reason that God does this. He created all things for his son and so he also did it all through him. We in turn are to be obedient to Christ as he is our head. God is Christ's head. So if I am obedient to Christ I am obedient to God. Do you understand that God works through his son. He even sent his own Spirit to us, through his son.

I wrote to Wit when it I was answering t8…sorry

may I comment on YVAH, God, only working through agents? God's holiness would consume this earth if He were to enter it's atmosphere is what the scriptures seem to imply…this is another reason I dont believe that Jesus (Yahshua) is “the” holy diety Himself

noone could touch or look upon him & live if he were…however, Jesus was the substance of light made flesh & God is light…the light was not made…it was breathed out of God in the beginning…when God said “let there be light” He was speaking by His divine intellegence (wisdom), called “the logos” & He was predestinating our Lord Messiah to be His express image by whom He made all things & for whom He made all things…His only begotten son is the heir of all creation & it was predestined from the beginning, but it was fullfilled when Jesus was begotten, ie, the word was made flesh…in other words God predestined for His son to be born of flesh & He spoke it from the beginning

God gave dominion to man (Adam) but man was never made to be soveriegn…he was made to be governed by God (the kingdom of God, which is His Spirit)…the Spirit of God is holy…it is His breath which gives life to all creation…when He breathes out His word it is law…everything He created is upheld by His law & God interviens by His law in the earth (His law is His kingdom of which He is king…it isnt a democracy)

when Jesus was born the kingdom of God was made near in the earth…Messiah is king of God's kingdom over the works of His hands…that is why there is no other way to YVAH, who is God alone…He chose His king & anointed him before he was ever born & foretold of his coming through His prophets

(heb 1:1,2) “God, who at sundry times & in divers manners (signs, wonders, prophesies, types & shadows, etc) spoke in time past (before Jesus was born) unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days (after the birth of Jesus) spoken to us by His son, who He has appointed heir of all things (Messiah is heir of all creation & it was predestined by God from the beginning, therefore, Messiah is Lord of all), by whom also He (YVAH, the father, creator of all) made the worlds”

this does not mean that Jesus pre-existed with God or was God, the creator…when God spoke, “let there be light” this was the purpose for creation & He made all things by that light & that light was the anointing of the anointed one (Messiah) & all things were made for the light, which was God's express image…when Jesus was begotten according to prophesy fullfilling all prophesy concerning him, he was that light born of flesh…when he was born he was “the” heir of heaven & earth…everything was made for him & he came to recieve his inheritance

not only is heaven & earth his but we are his inheritance…he chose to purchase us with his own life's blood so we could be bone of his bone & flesh of his flesh (recreated, born again, made new)

Jesus was able to ascend & descend into heaven & he knew God face to face…there was no separation because he was one with God, because he was the light of God made flesh…he had no sin & it is sin that separates from God…he was able to be in the world & fully be in the presence of God at the same time at all times…when he cried “my God, why have you forsaken me?” it was our sins that brought separation & he had never been separated before..that separation caused the very elements of earth to be moved

there was darkness, the earth shook, the viel was rent, the temple fell…it was so terrifying that the roman soldier cried, “surely this was the son of God”…I believe (isah 24-27) is a prophesy of what happened the moment the son of God was separated from the father for the 1st & last time of his life (due to our sins)

God has chosen to do all things by the son…all judgement & dominion has been given to him..the wrath of the lamb will be Jesus' final whipping of the moneychangers of the earth because of his indignation for the father & his brethren who have suffered in his name…the day will come when all things have been subdued to God (YVAH) by the son that the son will submit also & God will be all in all (1cor 15:28)

blessings & peace to all

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
No man has seen God as many scriptures tell us. Ezekiel saw a vision of God [Ez 1.1,26], similar to the vision John saw in Rev 4.3[and Is 6].Both say” a figure with the appearance of a man”and the mention of a rainbow of His glory surrounding Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
Are you saying the firstborn and only begotten Son of God did not have a separate nature and being from the Father in the beginning?
The other sons of God did [Jb 38.7] They shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid by the Son of God as agent for the Father.

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
The book of Genesis tells us the Earth was created before light.
Gen 1f” In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep;and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Then God said 'Let there be light' and there was light”

The sons of God were created before the earth[Jb38]
The Only begotten Son of God was with God in the beginning before the creation of all things.

Jn 1.4 “In him was life;and the life was the light of men.”

He was the light. But not the physical light of natural creation but the light of and for men-wisdom, knowledge, truth.

All things were created through the Son of God and for him [Heb 1,Jn 1]and that includes the earth too does it not?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,02:12)

Hi Dora, Are you saying the firstborn and only begotten Son of God did not have a separate nature and being from the Father in the beginning? The other sons of God did [Jb 38.7] They shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid by the Son of God as agent for the Father.

Nick, i'm saying that the son of God did not pre-exist as God, as in the 2nd person of the trinity, but he was predestined from the beginning…when God said, “light be”, that was the anointing of the Messiah & when Jesus was concieved & Mary gave birth, the word was made flesh…the word, 'light be” was made flesh & that is the day that the son of God was begotten

as for the “sons of God” in (job 38:7), i am not completely sure about, but i suspect that is talking about the day that God rested, day 7 of creation…all things glorified & praised God & that includes the male & female of the 6th day, ie, the sons of God…both male & female are sons…both are man…female = feminine male & woman = man with a womb…they were just made compatible for procreation

there were no agents for the Father in the beginning…He alone is creator of all

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,20:22)

Hi Dora, No man has seen God as many scriptures tell us. Ezekiel saw a vision of God [Ez 1.1,26], similar to the vision John saw in Rev 4.3[and Is 6].Both say” a figure with the appearance of a man”and the mention of a rainbow of His glory surrounding Him.

i didnt say any man had seen God…in fact i made it clear in earlier answers that only Jesus has seen God, but Ezekial did see God's body…he did not see his face

[NickHassan]

Hi Dora,
Born is not begotten.
The Son of God was begotten in the beginning before time or the creation of all things, which were made through him.He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
So if other sons exist then he pre existed them.
But firstborn implies status and preeminence in all things.
He was sent into into the world. He humbled himself and put aside his glory as the Son of God to be born as the Son of Man.
The Logos was, then was made flesh.

[Author]

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