JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[terraricca]

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

who is the own IMAGE OF GOD ? the WORD /Jesus

so God says ;”in the image of God he created himso Adam was created in HIS OWN IMAGE WHO IS CHRIST /the WORD

[Proclaimer]

Good point. We know that the head of the man is Christ.

[terraricca]

from the WORD to Jesus the Christ and back to the WORD of God

[Proclaimer]

Yes, it seems to be that.

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

I don’t care what you or anyone else believes – as far as me trying to change your mind goes.
With that being said, if you are looking at the evidence, then why not consider all the evidence?

You do know that there is NOT ONE PLACE in Scripture where Jesus is said
to be “The Word” – to come to that conclusion you have to do both A and B:

A. Read that into the text (because there is nowhere where this idea is explicitly expressed)
– and –
B. Disregard points labeled #1 and #2 (which serve as counter evidence against your claim)

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Points labeled #1 and #2

…..[color=777117]”then “The Word” of the LORD came to me, saying”[/color]

What this text REALLY MEANS is:
then “Jesus Christ” came to the prophet Jeremiah, and spoke – T8 .(yes?)

Please excuse me for putting words in your mouth, so let’s instead
break the claim down by looking at the evidence. If what you are saying is
true and correct, then we must conclued the following points labeled #1 and #2

1. Jesus Christ came to Jeremiah the prophet
– and –
2. Jesus Christ spoke to Jeremiah the prophet

Now if you don’t believe (points labeled #1 and #2) are true and correct,
would Jer.18:5 not serve as counter evidence against your claim? If not, why not?

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Consider instead that God’s HolySpirit is “The Word”
(and you will not find any counter evidence)

_______________
God bless
Ed J

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Admin.

[terraricca]

Ed

Yes in this cases that is what it means, for Jesus was the Word of God carrier, he said this as well when he was on earth ,

[Ed J]

1. Jesus Christ came to Jeremiah the prophet
– and –
2. Jesus Christ spoke to Jeremiah the prophet

Hi Pierre,

“then “The Word” of the LORD came to me, saying” (Jer.18:5)

If you believe points labeled #1 and #2,
then the following words apply to you…

What the quoted words of Jeremiah 18:5 REALLY MEAN is:
then “Jesus Christ” came to the prophet Jeremiah, and spoke – Terraricca

Do I have your view stated correctly?

[Proclaimer]

Ed J.

All truth is of God. Lies are of the Evil One.

Jesus said he was the truth and we know that lots of people tell lies.

The second century apostles believed that the Word that was with God came from God and did not lessen the Word that was in God. They did not rule out the Word in other contexts.

Tatian (165 A.D)
For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

Clearly the above says that the Logos that was begotten in the beginning from God did not remove the logos that is in God.

We are not forced to think of the Word as exclusively God or Jesus just as we do not think that about ‘truth’. Your thinking appears to have this constraint and thus you arrive at your conclusion based on that.

Read all the scriptures in the first post. They are hard to ignore if you have truth in your heart. How do you explain them all away.

God created all things through the son of God right? He also created all things through his Word.

Reconcile that with your theology.

[Ed J]

“then “The Word” of the LORD came to me, saying”
.
What this text REALLY MEANS is:
then “Jesus Christ” came to the prophet Jeremiah, and spoke – T8 (yes?)
.
1. Jesus Christ came to Jeremiah the prophet
– and –
2. Jesus Christ spoke to Jeremiah the prophet

Hi T8,

Then it is correct for me to assume that you agree with points labeled #1 and #2 right?
I ask again because I cannot reasonably ascertain an answer of “Yes” from your response.

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

1. The verses of: Heb.1:2, Col.1:15-17, and 1Cor.8:6 are not meant as
a secret encoding suggesting Jesus was the first created being.
To imply that is to misunderstand the bible’s message.

2. It was through (as in because of) Jesus’ death
on the cross that all things were created.
Do you agree with my summation?

[Proclaimer]

Ed J, you are not coming across as clearly understating what I am saying judging by your second to last post.

If Jesus said he was the truth, then does that mean that all truth including the truth in God is Jesus?

Do you see the point now.

Logos is not 100% exclusively Jesus Christ either.

[Proclaimer]

God is the Father and from where did Jesus originally come if he came from God? Was it from God’s own attributes like truth, logos, wisdom, etc? Perhaps this is why he is names these things. He came from God and then he came here to our world. Now he is back in the glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos.

When God gives us a new name that no one else knows, it is because he knows from whence we have been birthed.

Do you believe that God created all things through the Son of God? I think your answer is no. You kinda believe that because of him all things were created. But all things were made for him and through him.

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

1. It is clear that Jesus’ death on the cross was planned at least by Genesis 1:15, if not before.

2. And Rev.13:8 suggests Jesus’ death on the cross was planned even before the creation of the world.

3. Therefore it is safe to conclude: it is through Jesus’ death on the cross that all things were created by God.

_________________________
Sorry if you disagree
Ed J

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

I understand your reluctance to see Jeremiah 18:5 as counter evidence against your claim, I’ve
seen this pattern before. I will draw a comparative example for you, so you can see my point.
The JW’s will claim that Jesus is Michael the Archangel and then use a verse like 1Thess.4:16.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” (1Thess.4:16)

Jesus is there with the voice of the archangel, therefore Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
But when Hebrews 1:5 and Hebrews 2:5 are shown to them, they reject it as any counter evidence.

There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it?

_______________
God bless
Ed J

[Proclaimer]

Therefore it is safe to conclude: it is through Jesus’ death on the cross that all things were created by God.

Where is the word ‘death’ mentioned in relation to why God created all things through the son.

And spell out to me exactly how the process works?

So he dies for humanity, then God decides to create all things?
Or before anything was created God decided Jesus would die on a cross and because of that thought he decided to create all things billions of eons ago, and two thousand years ago, Jesus died on that cross that he thought about.

I cannot see any of these options as being taught in scripture, but you have to hold to one of these or something similar right?

[Proclaimer]

There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it?

What claim? These ones?

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

John 8:58
Before Abraham, I am

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together

I am betting that your evidence is much less than these scriptures above.

 

[Ed J]

There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it?

What claim? These ones?

Hi T8,

No, this one…

‘he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth’ – T8

Note: the word “he” is in reference to Jesus Christ
Also Note: That I separated your claim as a sentence fragment
so as to not detract from other ideas presented in the complete sentence.

____________________________________________________________________________

Now that ‘your claim’ has been properly identified:

It is to ‘your claim’ that I have offered Jeremiah 18:5
as counter evidence, but you seem to reject it as such.
You have not answered my question, so I’ll ask it again…

There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it? “Yes” or “No” ?

[Ed J]

Where is the word ‘death’ mentioned in relation to why God created all things through the son.

(D)And spell out to me exactly how the process works?

(A)So he dies for humanity, then God decides to create all things?
(B)Or before anything was created God decided Jesus would die on a cross and because of that thought he decided to create all things billions of eons ago, and two thousand years ago, Jesus died on that cross that he thought about.

(C)I cannot see any of these options as being taught in scripture, but you have to hold to one of these or something similar right?

Hi T8,

A) No
B) A bit awkwardly worded, but yes that is the idea
C) See points A and B

D) That is what I’ve been attempting to do. (here are repeated words from a previous post)

1. It is clear that Jesus’ death on the cross was planned at least by Genesis 1:15, if not before.
2. And Rev.13:8 suggests Jesus’ death on the cross was planned even before the creation of the world.

______________________________________________________________________________
More on “D”

“Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause
(the crucifixion) came I unto this hour.” (John 12:27)

D) In John 12:27 the crucifixion is shown to be predetermined.
So when was the crucifixion predetermined? at least by Genesis 1:15
And according to Revelation 13:8, before even the creation of the world.
You are of course free to not believe this, but that’s how the process works.

_______________
God bless
Ed J

[Proclaimer]

There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it? “Yes” or “No” ?

Of course I am happy to see any evidence. But to be honest I have no reason to have any faith in your evidence given the history of evidence you have provided for other claims you have made here. I am not trying to be nasty but just being honest. I do not like wasting my time with wild goose chases and I fear that this will happen again. I gave my reasons with scripture and those scriptures were but the tip of the iceberg. I doubt you can challenge all of them as they are written, but feel free to do so.

[Proclaimer]

I have no problem believing that Jesus laying his life down was known beforehand. After all, God created beings with free will, thus it was probably only a matter of time before some of those beings chose against God which he allowed for. And God is all knowing, thus he is not ignorant of this and had a plan for this.

But that doesn’t mean that God created all things because Jesus was going to die on a cross. God created all things because he is love and love seeks to share that love with others.

So creation is one thing and redemption another. Redemption is a way to stop creation from being fully corrupt and dying. It is a power of God that counters the corruption of evil as life overrides death and light overcomes darkness.

God created all things for his son and through him. That is written. You believe that God created all things for him, but you do not seem to believe that God created all things through him, yet that is explicitly stated in scripture more than once. You are trying to convince me otherwise.

[Author]

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