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Mike,
Quote Human beings are natural beings, originally made FROM the elements of the earth. We were never “spiritual” beings like angels. God spoke to the angels and stated “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness …”
Hi KW,
Gen 6.3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.Man does not have the Spirit of God.
He can be given that SpiritQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,04:04) Hi KW.
Life is in the blood.
Souls can be under the altar in heaven
Nick,The souls of certain dead are prophetically under the altar but Scripture when literally translated from Hebrew states the soul is in the blood of the living.
Genesis 9:4
Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)4 But flesh with the soul (or life) thereof, which is its blood, ye shall not eat.
Note: Most translations are not literal translations of the verse but rather a idea for idea translation on a word for word basis according to the dominate opinion of the translators of that version. Genesis 6:3 is similar though I have found not that translated the Hebrew word to “judge” which is its literal English counterpart.
Nick,
That is what many translators seem to believe as when Rachel was dying it was stated her soul left her body, Genesis 35:16-18.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:54) Mike, Quote Jesus is not still flesh, Gene. Flesh can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God in heaven. (John 3, 1 Cor 15) Jesus has done all three. Neither of those verses say what you want them to say.
I don't “want” them to say anything, Kerwin. I just understand them in the most logical and sensible way they can be understood – the way that aligns with the other scriptural teachings on this same subject.You, on the other hand, bend over backwards to pretend those passages say anything other than the most logical and sensible thing – since you have man-made doctrines to protect.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:54) John 3 is about getting a new spirit to live by which is more important to God than the body he gives as it pleases him.
Flesh gives birth to flesh, so we must be born again, Kerwin. Now tell me, does receiving the Spirit from God cause us to no longer be flesh? Are we really “born again” if we receive God's Spirit but remain in the same flesh body we have always been in?The teaching is that because flesh gives birth to flesh, we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see or enter heaven.
Remaining flesh beings defeats the purpose, since no matter how much Spirit God gives us, we are still those same sinful flesh beings we have always been.
Your understanding seems to be: Flesh gives birth to flesh, but that is okay as long as that flesh being is filled with God's Spirit. But that teaching doesn't fit the CONTRAST Jesus was making between flesh and spirit, nor does it call for a rebirth. It only calls for a Spirit to be placed in what we already are.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,11:54) 1 Corinthians 15:50 states these the combination of of flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, flesh and blood being an idiom in our culture that is used to speak of the limitations of a human body of this corrupt world, a world subject to death because of adam's choice.
“Flesh and blood” MORE LIKELY being an idiom referring to “human beings” – as it VIRTUALLY ALWAYS refers to in scripture.You think it doesn't in 1 Cor 15, but once again, that is only because you have your own personal man-made doctrines to consider.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06)
Mike,I do not follow Gnostic or Gnostic like teachings.
Please explain to me what that statement means, Kerwin.For example, Gnostics believe in God. Are you saying you DON'T?
I don't know the technical term for this kind of ad hominem, but it is similar to “guilt by association”.
In your mind, the Gnostics are “bad”, and therefore you think you can make my points null and void by associating those points with Gnostic beliefs.
But I also believe many things the JWs believe. Can you rightly just dismiss those things BECAUSE JWs also believe them?
I believe many things Trinitarians also believe. Can you dismiss those things simply BECAUSE Trinitarians also believe them?
Heck, I might even believe certain things Mormons and Muslims and Catholics believe. Should those beliefs of mine be dismissed by you because they are “guilty by association”?
Let's try to stick to the scriptures, and not dismiss another person's beliefs out of hand because another “frowned upon” group of people also hold that belief, okay?
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06) There is no mention of angels having bodies composed of spirit in Scripture.
Read 2 Cor 5:1-5, Kerwin. It speaks of us eagerly awaiting the demise of our “earthly tent”, so that we can be given a much better “heavenly dwelling” by God.What does that mean to you? What does Paul mean by “earthly tent”? And by “heavenly dwelling”? Are they both made of the same things? Enlighten me.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06) There is a couple mentions that portray at least some angels as being creature with no body and thus spirits.
Which scriptures?Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06) Scripture speaks of the physical being created first as God created the heavens and the earth and earth is physical.
Scripture clearly says the angels shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth. Those spirit beings were already in existence – despite your lonely pursuit to prove otherwise.Pretending a scripture doesn't say what it clearly does say is not “proof” that it doesn't say what it says, Kerwin. You can pretend all you want, but it won't change a thing.
Besides, what about the one who was with God in the beginning? You know, the one through whom God created all other things. Was that one a physical, natural, or spirit entity? Because that one came first, right?
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,12:06) Last, Scripture state man was created image of God and his image is spiritual.
His “IMAGE” is “SPIRITUAL”? Doesn't that mean God has a spirit BODY, Kerwin? If not, what “image” are you talking about?Nevertheless, man is not a “spirit” being like God is, Kerwin. Man is made of dust, and is given a spirit on loan from God. Men are not “spirit beings”. They are “flesh beings”.
You are sinking deeper and deeper into the sludge of your own making. One twist here means you have to twist there and there to cover that first twist. And so on and so on. Your imagined doctrine is coming unraveled, Kerwin.
Mike,
It is guilt by deriving your doctrine from a source other than Scripture and then seeking to force Scripture to support it. There is no mention of bodies composed of Spirit in all of Scripture it is a teaching that is derived by the theology of Gnosticism or one that is like it.
You are ignoring reason in your chosen interpretation as you clinging to what certain men have taught you despite evidence to the contrary. My hypothesis is that you have invested a lot in it and you have now wish to loose your investment. It seems you have question the same men in the past and disagreed with them so but that is probably on things you had less invested in.
We are each tested in our own ways and Satan does not want to surrender us. It seems those against us are greater than those for us but God declares that is not so.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,15:33) ……..the body of man spiritual just like than angels it was created like as God said “Let us make man to our image ….”.
So which is your truth, Kerwin……….1. God is also flesh like mankind and the angels.
2. Mankind is a spirit being like God and the angels.
Once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. You are correct that God indeed said “OUR image”, didn't He?
So there were other spirit beings besides God before God created man, right?
And if those other beings were “flesh”, and God said “our image”, wouldn't that make God also flesh?
You have placed yourself in a pickle here. Enlighten me as to how all of this is going to work out for you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2014,16:15) Hi KW,
Gen 6.3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
And yet, God DIDN'T say such a thing about His spirit sons, right Kerwin?Created “in the image” of God and His already existing spirit sons does not mean “created EXACTLY LIKE them in EVERY WAY”.
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:04) Mike, It is guilt by deriving your doctrine from a source other than Scripture and then seeking to force Scripture to support it. There is no mention of bodies composed of Spirit in all of Scripture it is a teaching that is derived by the theology of Gnosticism or one that is like it.
You are ignoring reason in your chosen interpretation as you clinging to what certain men have taught you despite evidence to the contrary. My hypothesis is that you have invested a lot in it and you have now wish to loose your investment. It seems you have question the same men in the past and disagreed with them so but that is probably on things you had less invested in.
We are each tested in our own ways and Satan does not want to surrender us. It seems those against us are greater than those for us but God declares that is not so.
Kerwin,That entire post is bunk. I haven't the foggiest idea what the Gnostics believed. And no “man” taught me how to understand 1 Cor 15, 2 Cor 5, Phil 3:21, or the many other scriptures from which I gleaned my understanding about a spiritual body to replace our flesh body.
You say your hypothesis is that I have a lot invested in my understanding, and that I don't want to lose that investment.
Could it be that you haven't ever been able to show me one thing that would discredit my understanding, and therefore I have no REASON to leave it?
Yeah Kerwin…… it's that latter one.
Like I said in the previous post, USE SCRIPTURES, not “guilt by association games”. Show me using SCRIPTURES that my understanding is wrong.
Show me – USING SCRIPTURES – how God and His angels are “flesh beings” along with Jesus, Kerwin.
Because if we were created in “our image”, and you swear the angels are made of FLESH, then God is also made of flesh, Kerwin.
It's time for you to stop digging yourself in deeper, and let us thrown you a lifeline to help pull you out of your pit.
Mike,
I have no idea what God said to the angels. I do know that Genesis 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit. That would it is used as “flesh as frail or erring (man against God)”.
I do not believe God created “flesh as frail or erring (man against God)” but instead he created it to be empowered and for God.
I am convinced flesh became ” as frail or erring (man against God)” as the result of adam's sin.
Note:flesh
Note: Corrected address of passage I am speaking of. Thank you Mike.Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:28) I do know that Hebrews 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit.
Please give me the correct scripture, so I can check what you're saying.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,06:30) Hi KW,
Men were is rebellion against God.
Philosophy adds nothing
Nick,Stick to subjects that you know what you are are speaking of as you know nothing about philosophy.
You are correct that men are in rebellion against God but the God did not not say the Spirit's difficulty was with men in that case. Instead he stated his difficulty was that they were also flesh. So if the only contention that is relevant to the length of a human's life is the contention between God's Spirit and the flesh of man which was corrupted by adam's choice.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2014,06:52) Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:28) I do know that Hebrews 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit.
Please give me the correct scripture, so I can check what you're saying.
Mike,It is definition of flesh I found at blueletterbible.org. Psalms 78:38 uses it the same way
Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2014,12:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,06:30) Hi KW,
Men were is rebellion against God.
Philosophy adds nothing
Nick,Stick to subjects that you know what you are are speaking of as you know nothing about philosophy.
You are correct that men are in rebellion against God but the God did not not say the Spirit's difficulty was with men in that case. Instead he stated his difficulty was that they were also flesh. So if the only contention that is relevant to the length of a human's life is the contention between God's Spirit and the flesh of man which was corrupted by adam's choice.
Hi KW,Gen 6.3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.I do not read it that way.
Rebellious man is a pathetic weakling whose ways are very irritating so God chose an easier way to deal with him-shorten their lives
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