JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2013,06:59)

kERWIN

Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.
Ecc 12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
Ecc 12:13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

this is good advice

Very good advice for the independent
wisdom seekers,following their own way.
In their journey *judging* the Word of God
by their own wisdom.

wakeup.

December 1, 2013 at 10:04 pm#362960

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2013,15:49)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2013,08:43)

Mike,
You confuse something He inherently is with something He does…………

Kathi,

Your whole post relies on believing that the word “God” describes a SPECIES – of which there are only two members.

I agree that Jesus is inherently a “spirit being” like his and our one and only God. But I don't believe he is inherently “God” – as if the word “God” describes a multi-membered species, like the word “human” does.

Mike,
It is an interesting topic to consider. What does the Bible have to say about the classification of supernatural beings? From what I can tell, the Father and the Son are in the same classification…the most high classification. All others are far below that classification. What is unique about the most high class of beings that contain only the Father and the Son?

Two persons can be in the same classification even though one person has authority over the other within the classified species.

Humans are like that. Humans are all in one classified species but there are some who have authority over others within that species.

Quote

But I don't believe he is inherently “God” – as if the word “God” describes a multi-membered species, like the word “human” does.

Do you believe that the Father is inherently a god? Do you believe Chemosh, the detestable god of Moab, is inherently a god? If not, what is the Father inherently and what is Chemosh inherently?

December 1, 2013 at 10:08 pm#362963

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2013,16:12)

Also Kathi,

You didn't address one of my questions. I wanted to know if “the Word of YHWH” was ever said in the targums to be WITH “YHWH”.

In other words, did they ALWAYS change “YHWH” to “the Word of YHWH” – to the point that “YHWH Himself” is not even mentioned at all? Or are there scriptures where they clearly outline the fact that “YHWH” and “the Word of YHWH” worked together on something, or were with each other, or something that would make us understand that there were two?

Please give a targum example of this, if there is one.

Mike,
If I find something, I will let you know. There are many examples that indicate “Yahweh” was changed to “the Word of Yahweh” and considered Israel's covenant God.

You have the same opportunity to look for this information as I do, if you really want to know.

December 1, 2013 at 10:10 pm#362964

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,05:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,07:22)

Wakeup,
I believe that Jehovah is two powers, one is the Father and one is the Son. Both are called Jehovah together and separately and together they act in complete cooperation and interdependency.
Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son.

Lightenup.

Quote

Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son

That sounds like speaking in tongues.
Can you show us scriptures saying Jesus is also Jehovah his Father? If not;then its all made up,and contradictory to the scriptures.

wakeup.

Wakeup,
Perhaps you just lack understanding here and that is why it sounds confusing.

Please answer this question:
Is Jehovah/YHVH the Father's name?

December 1, 2013 at 10:31 pm#362966

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2013,08:10)

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,05:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,07:22)

Lightenup.

Quote

Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son

That sounds like speaking in tongues.
Can you show us scriptures saying Jesus is also Jehovah his Father? If not;then its all made up,and contradictory to the scriptures.

wakeup.

Wakeup,
Perhaps you just lack understanding here and that is why it sounds confusing.

Please answer this question:
Is Jehovah/YHVH the Father's name?

Lightenup.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

wakeup.

December 1, 2013 at 10:54 pm#362969

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 02 2013,02:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2013,06:59)

kERWIN

this is good advice

Very good advice for the independent
wisdom seekers,following their own way.
In their journey *judging* the Word of God
by their own wisdom.

wakeup.

you are the independent seeker to establish his own wisdom over the God's wisdom ,

you do not understand what Solomon says ,and so twisting his words ,

so read the entire book ,to learn truth and wisdom

December 1, 2013 at 11:35 pm#362971

kerwin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2013,10:39)

K. And w

There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,

The original was authorized by King James of England and it was not common at first. What is called the Authorized King James Version today is not the one that was authorized. There is yet another version that is just called the King James Version.

December 1, 2013 at 11:43 pm#362972

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,17:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,15:34)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,10:10)

Kerwin.

Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable?
Who is the judge to make that decision?
Are you qualified to be that judge?
Should not the scriptures itself be the judge,rather
than some person,or persons?

Who are they to judge the Word of God,not understanding the scriptures? Are they not all in confusion one with another?

Have the rivers not gone dry? There is a thirst,but not of water,but of hearing the Words of God.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

wakeup.

Wakeup,

I am qualified if I am guided by God and it does not care if I am not.

The King James Version is a modern version while Authorized King James is a couple of centuries old.

Kerwin.

How do you know God is guiding you?

wakeup.

Wakeup,

I am confident God is guiding me for the reason I believe that those people who deeply desire to be righteous as God is righteous will become like God in true righteousness and holiness. I am confident that either that accomplish this goal or are credited with accomplishing it before they die the first death will be judged worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God. I believe that this can only be done through faith in Jesus Christ from first to last.

December 1, 2013 at 11:48 pm#362973

terraricca

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2013,04:35)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2013,10:39)

K. And w

There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,

this is what it says ;

King James Version
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see King James Version (disambiguation).
King James Version
The title page's central text is:”THE HOLY BIBLE,Conteyning the Old Testament,AND THE NEW:Newly Translated out of the Originall tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties speciall Comandement.Appointed to be read in Churches.Imprinted at London by Robert Barker, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majestie.ANNO DOM. 1611 .”At bottom is:”C. Boel fecit in Richmont.”.

The title page to the 1611 first edition of the Authorized Version Bible by Cornelis Boel shows the Apostles Peter and Paul seated centrally above the central text, which is flanked by Moses and Aaron. In the four corners sit Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, authors of the four gospels, with their symbolic animals. The rest of the Apostles (with Judas facing away) stand around Peter and Paul. At the very top is the Tetragrammaton “יהוה”.
Abbreviation:KJV or AV
Complete Bible published:1611
Read online:King James Version at Wikisource
Textual basis:NT: Textus Receptus, similar to the Byzantine text-type; some readings derived from the Vulgate. OT: Masoretic Text with Septuagint influence.[citation needed] Apocrypha: Septuagint and Vulgate.
Reading level:US and Canada Grade 8–10[1]
Copyright status:Public domain due to age, publication restrictions in the United Kingdom
(See Copyright status)
Genesis 1:1–3[show]
John 3:16[show]
The King James Version (KJV), commonly known as the Authorized Version (AV) or King James Bible (KJB), is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England begun in 1604 and completed in 1611.[2] First printed by the King's Printer Robert Barker,[3][4] this was the third translation into English to be approved by the English Church authorities. The first was the Great Bible commissioned in the reign of King Henry VIII, and the second was the Bishops' Bible of 1568.[5] In January 1604, King James I convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritans,[6] a faction within the Church of England.[7]

and it was never made official in any way ,

December 2, 2013 at 12:45 am#362978

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,16:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2013,08:10)

Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,05:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,07:22)

Lightenup.

Quote

Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son

That sounds like speaking in tongues.
Can you show us scriptures saying Jesus is also Jehovah his Father? If not;then its all made up,and contradictory to the scriptures.

wakeup.

Wakeup,
Perhaps you just lack understanding here and that is why it sounds confusing.

Please answer this question:
Is Jehovah/YHVH the Father's name?

Lightenup.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

wakeup.

So Wakeup,
I am assuming that you realize that Jehovah is the name of the Father…correct? Please answer with a yes or a no. thx.

December 2, 2013 at 1:01 am#362980

Participant

The Most High God is Jehovah (YHWH) alone (Ps. 83:18). Jehovah is called the Father (but he is never called the Son, the Firstborn, the Only-begotten, the Christ or Messiah, etc.). Even many personal names of Israelites in the Bible actually said “Jehovah is the Father”: ‘Abijah,’ ‘Abiah,’ ‘Joab,’ etc. or “The Father is God”: ‘Abiel,’ ‘Eliab,’ etc. – but they never said anything remotely like ‘Jehovah is the Son’ (or the Messiah, the Firstborn, etc.)!

“But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” – Isaiah 64:8, ASV.

December 2, 2013 at 1:27 am#362981

Participant

@tigger2

wrong…

Jeremiah 23
5Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

Jehovah says HIS name shall be called Jehovah our righteousness!! That would be the messiah's name, btw.

Quote

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

In his days Judah shall be saved,…. In the days of the Messiah, the righteous Branch, and reigning prosperous King, not only the people of the Jews, God's elect among them, but all that truly embrace him, and confess him, as Judah's name signifies, shall be saved from all their sins; from the law, its curse and condemnation; and from wrath to come; and from all their spiritual enemies. In the latter part of his days all Israel shall be saved, Romans 11:26;

and Israel shall dwell safely; without any fear of enemies, being saved from them; being in that city, the church, which has salvation for walls and bulwarks; angels encamping about them; the Lord as a wall of fire around them; the Spirit lifting up a standard against their enemies, when they come in like a flood; and the Messiah their rock and refuge, and strong tower, their strength and righteousness; as follows: for all the salvation and safety of the Lord's people are owing to the righteousness of Christ; the effect of which is peace, quietness, and assurance for ever:

and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS; because he is the author of righteousness to his people, and is only so; no creature could be the author of it; unrighteous man cannot be the author of righteousness; and the righteousness of an angel is of no advantage to man; and indeed neither of the other divine Persons is the Lord our righteousness; for though they are both Jehovah, the Father and the Spirit, yet not our righteousness: the Father appointed and sent Christ to work it out; he approved and accepted of it, when wrought out; and imputes it to his people; but is not the author of it: so the Spirit convinces of the need of it; reveals it, and brings it near; works faith to receive it; and applies it, and pronounces a person justified by it; but is not the author of it; that the Son of God only is; who is become so by his obedience to the law, and by bearing the penalty of it; and who, having been delivered for our offences, rose again for our justification: and this righteousness, which he has wrought out to the satisfaction of law and justice, becomes “ours”; it being signed for us, and wrought out for us, by a free gift of it is given to us; ours through the imputation of it to us by the Father, and in virtue of our union to Christ, and interest in him; and through the application of it to us by the Spirit of God; who puts it upon us, and clothes us with it, and enables us to lay hold upon it, and claim interest in it; and which may be meant by Christ being “called our righteousness”; for the meaning is, not that he should commonly go by this name; but only that he should be that unto us which it signifies; and that we should by faith, even every true Israelite, every believer, call him our righteousness; say that we have righteousness in him make mention of that continually, and express our desires to be found atone in it; for so the words may be rendered, “and this is the name whereby he shall call him (g), THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”; and a sweet name to a sensible sinner it is; to one that has felt the guilt of sin in his conscience; seen his need of a righteousness, and the worth of it. That the Messiah is here meant is acknowledged by the Jews, ancient and modern (h).

December 2, 2013 at 2:27 am#362984

Participant

Quote

6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

Jehovah says HIS name shall be called Jehovah our righteousness!! That would be the messiah's name, btw.

None of that disproves the many facts presented in my last post. But here is more from my studies concerning names:

Another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] IS Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; ESV; Byington; AT; and ASV (footnote).

Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah “The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness” to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as “The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness”! – [bracketed information is mine].

Unfortunately for “Jesus is Jehovah” advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.

So if the name means that the bearer is actually Jehovah Himself, then Jerusalem is the Most High God!

December 2, 2013 at 2:57 am#362988

kerwin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2013,04:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2013,04:35)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2013,10:39)

K. And w

There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,

this is what it says ;

and it was never made official in any way ,

That passage states it was third version made official by the kings of England.

December 2, 2013 at 3:07 am#362989

Participant

Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 02 2013,12:27)

Quote

6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

Jehovah says HIS name shall be called Jehovah our righteousness!! That would be the messiah's name, btw.

None of that disproves the many facts presented in my last post. But here is more from my studies concerning names:

Unfortunately for “Jesus is Jehovah” advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.

So if the name means that the bearer is actually Jehovah Himself, then Jerusalem is the Most High God!

Tigger2.

In Jesus days, He shall be called the Lord our righteousness

Jeremiah 23:6 **In his days** **Judah shall be saved**, and **Israel shall dwell safely**: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

1.Who is He?
2..Who is Judah?
3..Who is israel?
Can you explain?

Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall *Judah* be saved, and *Jerusalem* shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith **she shall be called**, The LORD our righteousness.

1.Who is she?
2.Who is Judah?
3.Who is Jerusalem?
can you explain?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, **The everlasting Father**, The Prince of Peace.

The son of God is called the everlasting Father?

Can you explain?

wakeup.

December 2, 2013 at 4:11 am#362992

Participant

Quote

The son of God is called the everlasting Father?

Can you explain?

wakeup.

Yes:

See Tigger2 post: Dec. 02 2013,10:42 (page 8)

December 3, 2013 at 12:16 am#363024

Participant

Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 02 2013,14:11)

Quote

The son of God is called the everlasting Father?

Can you explain?

wakeup.

Yes:

See Tigger2 post: Dec. 02 2013,10:42 (page 8)

Tigger2.

Can you use your own words and knowledge?

wakeup.

December 3, 2013 at 12:45 am#363030

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2013,13:42)

Quote

In his now classic Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal examines rabbinic evidence about early manifestations of the “two powers” heresy within Judaism. Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the “two powers in heaven” was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity. An important addition to New Testament and Gnostic scholarship by this much revered scholar, Segal's Two Powers in Heaven is made available once again for a new generation.

It seems to me that your source calls this “two powers” thing a “heresy within Judah” – and says this belief was “widespread by the first century”.

That doesn't sound like it was widespread BEFORE the first century A.D., does it?

December 3, 2013 at 12:56 am#363031